Can i run 5500w off that panel?

[weedlover_89]

Hello, as the title suggests i was wondering if the electrical panel of my house can pull it off.

I am planning on doing a grow in a 10x10 room. I am gonna use air conditioner along with 6x600w HPS.

Max rated electrical draw of the 12000 BTU air conditioner I have is at 1330 W. Plus 6x600w HPS, we get at ~5000w (without calculating the extra amps ballasts draw when they ignite).


Besides that, I am using 3x450 cfm blowers, rated at 105 w each.
Plus 2x250 cfm blowers for active intake, rated at 65w each.
Plus 6 clip on fans rated at 30 w each.
All that equals to 5350 watts (~5500w).


I live in Europe, we have 240v here. Thank you. I included a pic of the electrical panel.

 

[rives]

The draw is going to be a bit higher than you have calculated as a result of ballast losses. This isn't just from start-up surge - ballasts take some power for themselves to run, frequently about 10% of their output wattage. The A/C is also going to be subject to surges as the compressor kicks on & off. You are going to need somewhere approaching 6000 watts, and the 80% rule says that continuous loads should only utilize a maximum of 80% of the breaker's rating (it's a US rule, but I would assume that you have something similar).

If one of those 40a breakers is a spare, and if there is sufficient power coming into the panel to power the additional load, then it should work fine. The 40a is going to need to be broken down to much lower current protection for your gear, though. If you could pull a 40a feed off of this and power a sub-panel with several 10a or 16a breakers in it, you should be good.

 

[weedlover_89]

Hello dude, thank you very very much for your answer! I know what you said about ballasts starting up, i had not calculated that it would be the same with the A/C though. I will also abide by the 80% rule, don't want to overdo it. During my previous grow, i was pulling 4500w from HPS+fans etc (had not A/C then).

A friend of mine turned on both the water heater and the kitchen while i had the setup full on working inside my room. I can't calculate how many thousand watts run through the circuit.BOOM! (metaphorically speaking, because luckily there was no fire). I did not have power in my apartment for a few hours and i had 16 plants in mid to late flowering.

A worker from the electric company had to come and fix it through my meter (meter is not inside my apartment). He told me that the breaker or something like that had melted and a fire was not far away.You can easily imagine that until this incident was over i had crapped my pants.

Onto our subject, i imagine that the breakers in the bottom left are for the water heater and the kitchen. And the breaker on the bottom right is a spare one for the rest of the apartment. And as you can see from the picture, there are 2x10A and 1x16A breaker above. So, the subpanel with the 2x10A and 1x16A breaker is there .

From what i understand now, all i gotta do is put down each breaker separately and check which breaker corresponds to which outlet? And continue with the calculations from there to see in which outlet i will have to put the HPS, in which the A/C and so on?

An idea that comes to mind is that i could use the breaker of the water heater to be sure there will be sufficient load and connect some of the HPS but i suppose its not a simple task...

 

[krunchbubble]

Hello dude, thank you very very much for your answer! I know what you said about ballasts starting up, i had not calculated that it would be the same with the A/C though. I will also abide by the 80% rule, don't want to overdo it. During my previous grow, i was pulling 4500w from HPS+fans etc (had not A/C then).

A friend of mine turned on both the water heater and the kitchen while i had the setup full on working inside my room. I can't calculate how many thousand watts run through the circuit.BOOM! (metaphorically speaking, because luckily there was no fire). I did not have power in my apartment for a few hours and i had 16 plants in mid to late flowering.

A worker from the electric company had to come and fix it through my meter (meter is not inside my apartment). He told me that the breaker or something like that had melted and a fire was not far away.You can easily imagine that until this incident was over i had crapped my pants.

Onto our subject, i imagine that the breakers in the bottom left are for the water heater and the kitchen. And the breaker on the bottom right is a spare one for the rest of the apartment. And as you can see from the picture, there are 2x10A and 1x16A breaker above. So, the subpanel with the 2x10A and 1x16A breaker is there .

From what i understand now, all i gotta do is put down each breaker separately and check which breaker corresponds to which outlet? And continue with the calculations from there to see in which outlet i will have to put the HPS, in which the A/C and so on?

An idea that comes to mind is that i could use the breaker of the water heater to be sure there will be sufficient load and connect some of the HPS but i suppose its not a simple task...

Follow and remember rives every word....

He is THE GOD when it comes to electricity...

 

[dekab247]

Hi All,

Sorry if this was mentioned. I looked, and didn't see anyone say. I am well drugged on pain meds. So if I am repeating my apologies.

First if krunch is backing this from Rives. I'd listen. I have learned a lot from his threads, and trust his advice. As I have been able to use it real world.

Second...I was under the impression that you want to run about 5kbtu's for each 1k in lights. Plus the extra equipment. Just in lights alone if you would want to have if I am not mistaken near a 18k btu AC unit. I think your under powering your cooling.

Guys if I am wrong. My apologies...Chronic Pain patient here, and no herbal meds means quite a few opiates. Hate it, but hi as a kite on the pills ATM. Otherwise I hope you have a very successful garden friend...D

 

[rives]

A friend of mine turned on both the water heater and the kitchen while i had the setup full on working inside my room. I can't calculate how many thousand watts run through the circuit.BOOM! (metaphorically speaking, because luckily there was no fire). I did not have power in my apartment for a few hours and i had 16 plants in mid to late flowering.

A worker from the electric company had to come and fix it through my meter (meter is not inside my apartment). He told me that the breaker or something like that had melted and a fire was not far away.You can easily imagine that until this incident was over i had crapped my pants.

This is what I was alluding to when I said "if there is sufficient power coming into the panel to power the additional load". I can't see a main breaker in your picture - you need to find out what amperage your panel is fed with. For instance, if you are fed with 60a and you are planning on adding @ 30a of continuous load for your grow, you are probably looking at a repeat of your above experience.

Thanks for the kind words, Krunch.

 

[weedlover_89]

Krunch, thanks for stopping by! I do not have the intention to do something different than Rives suggests! In every case i will proceed with caution! Now that i found you, having watched other posts and threads of yours, understanding that you are way experienced how would you setup the lights?

I mean in what pattern? I am thinking on working with 24 plants in total. And thinking of putting 6 plants around each 600w in a classic vertical circular pattern and use the other 2 600w in the middle of the room.

Something like this:

x........x
....x.....
....x.....
x.........x

Hope i gave you to understand how i am thinking it. If you or any other guy has a suggestion, i will be more than glad to consider it!

Dekab, thanks a lot for your wishes and i hope that you get your hands on some premium staff soon. No reason to be apologizing and besides that, what you said made me thinking. Some say 3,500 BTU is the absolute minimum for every 1000w. Others say you need to go with 5,000w and others with even more.

It will be trial and error. From my experience so far, having run 6x600w bare bulbs vertically, i can tell you that its possible my a/c will do fine.Last time i tried it with 6x600w, i did not have a/c, i only had exhaust fans and fans for active intake.

I was bringing air from outside, ~60F since we have mild winter here. Temps rarely got over 80-82 f, which was good in my books. Not optimal, but good. And mind you, it was done in a 7x10 space.

So, i can tell you that it could be done with a/c supplementing cooling. Other than that its the same setup, with the same ventilation in a bigger space. I looked the a/c and it says it has a cooling capacity of 3600w. We shall see. Nothing is definite.

I am still in the process of sprouting my seeds. So far 18 have sprouted. If i see that temps are not good, i will work with 2400w, with which i am absolutely sure i won't have a problem. 6 plants around each 600w and that's all. Temps are crucial, i have understood it the hard way from grows in the past. I prefer to achieve optimal conditions with less bulbs than "good" conditions with more light.

 

[weedlover_89]

This is what I was alluding to when I said "if there is sufficient power coming into the panel to power the additional load". I can't see a main breaker in your picture - you need to find out what amperage your panel is fed with. For instance, if you are fed with 60a and you are planning on adding @ 30a of continuous load for your grow, you are probably looking at a repeat of your above experience.

Thanks for the kind words, Krunch.

Thanks for helping me out bro! How am i going to find what amperage my panel is fed with? I am under the impression that the mail breaker in my panel, if i have understood you correctly, is the one in the bottom right of my picture. The one that says 40A. Do you make something out of this? I can tell you exactly what is written on every breaker on my panel if that can help you understand something and help me avoid similar incidents in the future (brrrr!)

 

[weedlover_89]

Edit: 40 amps are dedicated to the kitchen and the water heater and the other 40 amps are for the rest of the house. What i can i use for growing are the 2x10A breakers and one 16A breaker. That equals to 36A at 240V.

Multiplying 36x240 i get 8640. In theory 8640 is 100% of the watts those breakers can "load"? 80% of 8640 equals roughly to 6900. I use a fridge which draws about 350 watts, a pc with speaker which draws 400 watts at most and 100 watts of cfl bulbs. So, i am left with about 6000w to use. Minus the extra 500w drawn by ballasts and compressor of a/c i get at 5500w plus a little bit extra.

Did i understood something wrong? The 40A is already broken down to 10 and 16A breakers.

 

[rives]

Just looking at the panel, it doesn't seem like it would be broken up that way. Perhaps it's not the case, but it seems like the two breakers on the left would be fed by the 40a main on the left, and the breakers on the right would be fed by the 40a main on the right. I've never seen a panel like that, so I could be way off base.

The 80% rule only applies to continuous loads, which are defined as anything over 3 hours in duration. Short-term loads can bump up to the full breaker rating. Your lighting would be a continuous load, and it is going to be too much to run on a single breaker of any of the available breakers. If you figure 4000w to allow for the ballast losses, at 240v that is going to be 16.6 amps. Your existing breakers are going to have to be limited to 8 amps for continuous loads on the 10a breakers, and to just under 13a on the 16a breaker.

 

[weedlover_89]

I got you bro and i salute your attempts to help and explain how stuff works to an illiterate of electricity like myself to the degree that you did it. Kudos to you Mr.Rives and i hope i find a way to give back to you!

This is my plan in a summary. I never thought i could run all 6x600w in one breaker:

16A- 2x600w+A/C+3 x35w fans (12,35A)

10A-2x600w+2x65w fans+1x105w fan+1x35w fans(6,8A)

10A-2x600w+2x105w fans+2 x35w fans (6,8A)

How do you find it? I calculated so that the recommended is not exceeded in any of the breakers and the calculations of ballasts losses etc are included.

 

[weedlover_89]

Hello, so far i am using 7x600w hps+ventilation (no a/c) with success from my 40A panel (its rated at 240v, not 120).

I want to add 3-4 more hps for flowering and my 40A panel aien't gonna cut it. So, i thought i could use the 25A breaker of my kitchen (rated at 240v too). It should be more than enough to run 3-4 600w hps.

The question is how am i going to do it?

In the first pic, you can see the cables that are connected to my kitchen.

My plan is this:

A)Disconnect the cables from my kitchen

B)Connect them with cables of the same size (Pic B)

C)Connect the cables with a female plug that is rated for that kind of amperage and electrical load (Picture C)

D)Connect a relay box to the female plug and connect the hps to the relay. (Here is the link to the relay box: http://www.amazon.co.uk/element-24-...&qid=1416009775&sr=8-3&keywords=relay+box+hps)

How do you find my plan? Anything i have not considered?

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[rives]

The only thing that you might be missing is whether or not there is additional fuse/breaker protection in the timer unit for the 600w circuits. The ad copy states that there is a fuse for the timer, but I don't see any mention of protection for the light circuits. If you feed the unit with 25a and there is no additional protection, then all of the plugs, receptacles, cords, etc that are connected to it would need to be sized for 25a. It seems likely that they would be rated for 10-12 amps, and could be fed significantly too much power if there is no further downstream protection.

 

[weedlover_89]

Hey bro, as always you are very helpful in your answers! I suppose you are speaking about the relay timer. What do you mean that they are rated for 10-12 amps?

You are referring to the cables of the hps lights? I should use 25a cables for the hps ballasts too or you mean something else? These units have relay timers that are able to hold up to 12 hps in one unit. Maybe i should get that unit to be sure?

The difference in price between the 6x600w relay timer and the 12x600w relay timer is minimal.

It would be very helpful to fully comprehend what you mean (i am not so good at electrics). I guess you mean that all cables that go from the hps ballasts and the bulbs should be rated for 25a? In a case like that, cost would be too much. If this is the case, my only way of doing this is to buy everything rated for 25a?

 

[rives]

Over here, most residential plug circuits are 15 amps. The majority of timer/controllers are from 30-50 amps. If you plug a 15-amp rated cord or plug into a circuit that is fused for 30-50a, nasty things can happen when things go awry. In order to be properly protected, the controller should provide fusing at the lower levels. If something goes wrong, the higher amperage protection isn't going to be effective for the lighter-rated components.

I assume that the situation is similar there, but with reduced amperage because of the higher voltage. I doubt that the cords, plugs, and receptacles are rated for 25 amps, and it seems like I had heard that they were in the 8-12 amp range.

 

[weedlover_89]

Your help is precious my friend! The exact model i want to buy is this: http://www.g-systems.eu/products/switching-devices/timer-box-6x600.html

You can see other models there too. If you don't think this is suitable for my situation, maybe you could point me to another one if that is not too much to ask.

For the particular model, it says it has 4x16A relays among the other things. What do you think? I will send an e-mail to the company too, but your answer as always is more than welcome!

 

[rives]

I don't see any details that would lead me to believe there is additional fusing installed. The relays are obviously rated at 16a, so there should be protection at that level. The manual only gives clock setting information, and there are no details about the construction of the device. This is also true of the other controllers that are listed with it.

I was helping a fellow from Australia a while back that was using an "Ezi-Grow" controller that had individual breaker protection for each receptacle. I don't know if they are available in Europe or are limited to Australia, but it looked like a pretty nice controller.

 

[weedlover_89]

Thank you brooooo! Unfortunately it seems the Ezi-grow controller is not available in Europe. I searched for other relay controllers in europe that are rated for 25A but to no avail so far. The most i checked have something like 2x15A, 3x16A.

This is the e-mail i sent to the company i mentioned before:

"Hello

I am interested in bying Timer Box II 6x600w, which i saw has 4x16A relays. I want to run this timer box through a 25A breaker, connecting 3-4 600w hps ballasts. Will i face problems doing this? Does your product contain fuse/breaker protection in the timer to cope with the increased amperage from my 25a breaker?
Thank you"

Hope i made my point clear, awaiting for answer.

 

[EclipseFour20]

May I add....if it is an old panel, I would consider replacing the breakers with new ones and make sure the buss contact/connections are "clean". Old breakers + bad contacts = heat (fire).

 

[weedlover_89]

Heyyyyy, thanks a lot for the answer! The panel is 6 years old, it seems to be in very good condition! In anyway, i don't want to overload it with more than 80% of its capacity!

Other than that, to the message i had sent:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Hello

"I am interested in bying Timer Box II 6x600w, which i saw has 4x16A relays. I want to run this timer box through a 25A breaker, connecting 3-4 600w hps ballasts. Will i face problems doing this? Does your product contain fuse/breaker protection in the timer to cope with the increased amperage from my 25a breaker?
Thank you"

They answered me:

[/FONT]
"Hello


The connection can not be smaller as 1x16A, it can be bigger, no problem. Please use existing connectors to plug the timer box, or ask a certificated electric installer guy.


kind regards"

Not very detailed answer to understand for sure what to do and what not to do...