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Calicum problem?...Pics...

Greetings SunBursT

They worry about my plant, its not just advice its a rescue a mission if you will. thats why i look at their grows etc to make my decesions....SunBursT

I concur. I also recognize, comprehend and addressed the quandary presented: judging if advice is sound. That is the role of the community. On the rare occasion only one member may have the experience to offer a solution, but much more often, there is a sense of consensus among the experienced cultivators that steer the initiate into steady territory.

The objection I am voicing is simply this: If some bit of information is relevant and accurate then the role of the community is to acknowledge it as such. Now you very well may call the advice giver's intent into question or even his/her experience, but members...please do not decry the veracity of the information if it is accurate.

Sincerely,
Charles.



Greetings Grat3fulh3ad

First, allow me to publicly extend my gratitude towards you for all your contributions to the community. It is individuals such as your self that make this forum such a dynamic and informative hub. Thank you.

I am familiar with the source material cited in your quote. I am familiar with the research and I am familiar with the conclusions of the original study. It states that there isn't a 'perfect' primary cation ratio for all crop plants. This study was in response to a government inquiry that sought to standardize fertilizing regimens and components. In support of its conclusion the study states the diverse optimum ratios, as well as, the differing cellular cation content of specific crops.

Also, the study is concerned with the nutritional profiles of food crops (for livestock), not with the optimum growth of the plants. This is one of the studies that proved: Depending on environment, plants are selective in nutrient uptake and that a cation ratio in the soil is not necessarily reflected in a similar ratio within cellular tissue.

For the sake of this point, the research is misconstrued or misunderstood: Every species of plant has an optimum ratio for nutrient uptake and a pinnacle point for metabolic processes. It is variable dependent...which is why there can be variance in the ratio. In Cannabis, however, the optimum primary cation ratio is 4:2:1/K:Ca:Mg. Again, that is not to say other ratios will not be successful. It simply means, with all other variables being equal, this ratio will perform best.

It is important to note that the ratio is specifically applied to a scenario where all three primary cations are present in the medium; for instance, if utilizing a fertilizer that contained all three...use the one employing that ratio.

Also, the ratio is an arithmetic mean. Ideally, one would introduce/implement Calcium independently from Magnesium (and to a much lesser degree, Potassium).

Sincerely,
Charles.
 
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G

Guest

Charles Xavier said:
Greetings SunBursT



I concur. I also recognize, comprehend and addressed the quandary presented: judging if advice is sound. That is the role of the community. On the rare occasion only one member may have the experience to offer a solution, but much more often, there is a sense of consensus among the experienced cultivators that steer the initiate into steady territory.

The objection I am voicing is simply this: If some bit of information is relevant and accurate then the role of the community is to acknowledge it as such. Now you very well may call the advice giver's intent into question or even his/her experience, but members...please do not decry the veracity of the information if it is accurate.



Sincerely,
Charles.


I agree, I believe H3ad has been "Peer Tested" if you will. This also applys to others, I have just chosen H3ad as his is the advice Is that which I have chosen.

I feel many members have these credits. This agian is my reason for joining this forum. I also agree when members continusly give sound advice they should be reconized by the comunity. I however dont feel a challenge of advice should be taken personaly as all growers IMO are striving for the same goal.

I have alot to learn and to be honest I feel the "book Smarts" of growing would do me wonders in my final goal THE PERFECT HARVEST WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoOOO

Peace Sun
Please call me Sun All my friends do.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Charles Xavier said:
Greetings SunBursT



In Cannabis, however, the optimum primary cation ratio is 4:2:1/K:Ca:Mg. Again, that is not to say other ratios will not be successful. It simply means, with all other variables being equal, this ratio will perform best.

Sincerely,
Charles.
Please cite your sources... I have searched high and low for such specific experimentation with cannabis... I would love to review them and integrate the study/studies into my nutrition thread...

The study I cited was only one example of several which indicated precisely the same thing, Otherwise the information would have never been included, as it's hard to trust a single source as authoritative.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Charles Xavier said:
Greetings SunBursT

I am familiar with the source material cited in your quote. I am familiar with the research and I am familiar with the conclusions of the original study. It states that there isn't a 'perfect' primary cation ratio for all crop plants. This study was in response to a government inquiry that sought to standardize fertilizing regimens and components. In support of its conclusion the study states the diverse optimum ratios, as well as, the differing cellular cation content of specific crops.

Also, the study is concerned with the nutritional profiles of food crops (for livestock), not with the optimum growth of the plants. This is one of the studies that proved: Depending on environment, plants are selective in nutrient uptake and that a cation ratio in the soil is not necessarily reflected in a similar ratio within cellular tissue.
Sincerely,
Charles.
Also... In the wisconsin study I mentioned, the object of study was crop yeild... and the internal ratio maintained by the plant... Not the nutritional profiles for feeding livestock...

The thing that was most interesting in the wisconsin study was that the plants internal ratio stayed within a very narrow band regardless of how the external ratios were altered...
 
G

Guest

One day I will understand and be informed enough to contribute to this conversation. Untill then Please go on as im very interested in where a civil discussion will lead to on this forum as I spend to much bandwith in the tokers Den.
 

bounty29

Custom User Title
Veteran
I'm not going to side with anyone here, but I've got a take on the whole 4:2:1 debate. When sproutco was around, I saw all the advice he gave. They made me think, but I didn't blindly follow the advice. Anyone that blindly follows advice from a single person has it coming. I've played with nutrient calculators, and toyed with the numbers. I've been using 4:2:1 (supposedly), but I've talked with a few people and I think the CalMag might be a little off from what the bottle says, but maybe not.

I had what looked like mag deficiencies, which could be caused by too much Ca. Either 6ml of CalMag with 17ml of PBP is too strong and the numbers would be a little different than 4:2:1, or my bottle's label isn't accurate, or my plant has a different need. From what I've seen, the 4:2:1 works well, not with all strains, but it's a good starting point to use. I've got a very simple feeding plan, and it goes by all the numbers, and I was able to adjust it to the plants needs very easily.
 
G

Guest

I had the same questions about calmag+. I am using these nutes in a flood and drain and not all plants are having a problem. #7 the pictured plant has been moved to a veg box and seems to be recovering very well with the lower PH and less cal mag.

I am thinking about going back to my 200 ppm tap water untill I can more fully understand what im doing as I add/ subtract nutes.
 
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Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
bounty29 said:
I'm not going to side with anyone here, but I've got a take on the whole 4:2:1 debate. When sproutco was around, I saw all the advice he gave. They made me think, but I didn't blindly follow the advice. Anyone that blindly follows advice from a single person has it coming. I've played with nutrient calculators, and toyed with the numbers. I've been using 4:2:1 (supposedly), but I've talked with a few people and I think the CalMag might be a little off from what the bottle says, but maybe not.

I had what looked like mag deficiencies, which could be caused by too much Ca. Either 6ml of CalMag with 17ml of PBP is too strong and the numbers would be a little different than 4:2:1, or my bottle's label isn't accurate, or my plant has a different need. From what I've seen, the 4:2:1 works well, not with all strains, but it's a good starting point to use. I've got a very simple feeding plan, and it goes by all the numbers, and I was able to adjust it to the plants needs very easily.

I agree that 4:2:1 works well. But, so do other similar ratios...
My take on it is that 4:2:1 is a fine ratio to use, but it is by no means necessary to build your nutrient regimin around it. Is the net gain worth the extra effort, sort of thinking.
All the research I've dug up leads me to believe, that as long as the necessary elements are present and balanced within a range of ratios. I use a mix with a ratio of 2:1.5:1 and it works great as well.
My whole point is to read your plants, not a calculator. This is something only a grower can do, how can you learn plants without growing? Like you pointed out, one of your plants seems to do it's math different from the rest, and you were able to read her and give what she was asking for.
 

bounty29

Custom User Title
Veteran
My whole point is to read your plants, not a calculator. This is something only a grower can do, how can you learn plants without growing? Like you pointed out, one of your plants seems to do it's math different from the rest, and you were able to read her and give what she was asking for.

That's exactly right, sproutco saw it as an end all solution, but I try to look at it as a basic starting point to build upon and change, while keeping simple and supplying the plants with what they need. I see people using a dozen different bottles of additives and it just doesn't appeal to me.

Someone else just started a thread about this, very similar to what I've said here. I said it in that thread and I'll say it here, I think this could be a very good thing for people to work on.
 
Greetings Sun

I have no doubt that you will attain your stated goal. You passion and commitment is plainly evident in the content of your posts in this thread. A bit more experience, coupled with your open mind and...

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. For the record let me state: I fully endorse a 'balanced' approach to cultivation. Yes, understanding the science is important but just as important (I would even postulate....of greater importance), is experience, or more accurately, the intuition that experience reinforces.

p.p.s. At 200 ppm, your tap water is on the cusp of suitability. However, it has been my experience that tap water (with its inherent stability and trace element profile) is less difficult for the initiate cultivator to work with than reverse osmosis filtered water.

C.X.
 
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Greetings bounty29

Thank you for your input and perspective. As well, thanks for ascertaining the overall tone of this thread and responding in accordance.

I concur with the mandate: Keep it simple.


I try to look at it as a basic starting point to build upon and change, while keeping simple and supplying the plants with what they need....bounty29
This is a practical application of what was stated in my post. Thank you for bringing a degree of clarity to the thread.

Sincerely,
Charles.
 
Greetings Grat3fulh3ad

In the study cited the object 'evolved' into one concerning crop yield, but discerning nutritional profiles was the reason why the study was commissioned and what the experimentation sought to establish. Unfortunately this sort of thing is far too common. So too is the basing of 'new' studies on the results of past studies, thereby creating the illusion of sup portative material.


4:2:1 works well. But, so do other similar ratios...Grat3fulh3ad
This is the gist of my position. The difference being I would go so far as to say 4:2:1/K:Ca:Mg is optimum. Adherence to this ratio is certainly not integral to success and it's important to note that this is not the claim that is being made.


as long as the necessary elements are present and balanced....Grat3fulh3ad
Absolutely, there is no fault with this statement; I concur.


Like you pointed out, one of your plants seems to do it's math different from the rest, and you were able to read her and give what she was asking for....Grat3fulh3ad
Now here's the sticking point. SunbursT secluded and reduced the nutrients applied to this plant and it responded positively. I suspect that the new primary cation ratio utilized, is closer to 4:2:1 than it was before, thereby punctuating the importance of and placing emphasis on, the veracity of the advice given.

My whole point is to read your plants, not a calculator....Grat3fulh3ad
I agree. My point is: if you read the proper calculator ...and (or) your plants accurately, both should disclose the same things.

Sincerely,
Charles.
 
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Brian1975

Member
:yoinks: Damn feller. you priddy edumacated ain't ya all smart and intelujint like. bet yu wnet to the fith grad dint yu?? :pointlaug :pointlaug :pointlaug Here's a :joint: to that brain of yours Charles. May it only become duller with time...and lots of joints. :wave:
 
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Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Charles Xavier said:
This is the gist of my position. The difference being I would go so far as to say 4:2:1/K:Ca:Mg is optimum.

Sincerely,
Charles.
Please back this statement up with something. I am not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying show your evidence that 4:2:1 is the optimum ratio for cannabis.

This is the second request. If supporting documentation actually exist please show me. If not I have to call into question your assesment of Optimum, since even within the same seedline plants have varying needs nutritionally.
 
B

Brother_Monk

Is it just me, or is Charles X seem a little Sproutcoesque? Perhaps a MOD check is in order. I believe it's against the TOU for the same ip to be posting in one thread?

Head, if you argue with this douch bag, it will only serve his purpose, of being a TROLL.

:ying:
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
I know, monk... But I'd like to definitively settle the 4:2:1 issue... If there if evidence I'd love to see it, otherwise... I have studies and experience to judge by and no reason to change what I'm doing...
 
B

Brother_Monk

No doubt...but I see that this thread has degenerated into some kind of mental masterbation. Which all of Sprout dudes arguments tend to go. Has the Calcium issue been resolved in the eye of the thread starter? If so, then all the bantering is useless in this thread.

Good luck getting your 421 issue resolved. It's prime sprout agenda.

Peace
BM
:ying:
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Oh... It'll be resolved... The next one of sprout's handles that post up anything about it, without posting evidence to back the claims... I'm done and the point has been resolved... If any sort of evidence or studies can be cited to back up the Canna Specific nature of their claims, I'll have no problem eating a little crow and ammending my plant nutrition article...
 

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