Calcium source without N and not Calmag

[gmanwho]

im not an expert by any means.

but in flower, Calcium Phosphate, end of story.


biomin an metalosate are good choices for low or no N. I remember one point biomin had an inexpensive calcium powder. Hate the water weight and the dilution tax. but the metalosate powder is nice, even better foliar.

Id stay away from any calcium with any sodium. Other problem is not all ingredients are listed in the analysis. while the plant uses some sodium, i beleive its said anything over 50ppm is detrimential. Most manfactuers do not list the sodium on their analysis. especially the cheap mfg processes.



it helps to get the medium ph in check. it can make or brake the correct absorbtion. U can have all the calicum in the world but if your ph is outside proper range calcium will be picked up at fractional rates.

Other problem is some of the PH charts are not as acurate as we thought. They show a wide range of availbility. but from more recent reading of scholarly articles it shows a soil ph of 6.4 is ideal. an most charts show a ph of 7 as ok. That upper range is fine for most. But, when you start smacking the plants with higher PPFD, move them into the fast lane, changes happen fast. Deficiencies are only 24hrs away.

If you take another insert from big ag, calcium is stacked early on in the tissue. Pre flower and into an through out the whole cycle till just before harvest. You need to build a reserve before the plant enters the high demanding environment. Leaf tissue analysis is one way big ag observes calcium.

In a fast paced environment in flower, once you see the deficiency signs, its to late to get that plant into the top percentile of what it was once capable of.

calcium shelfs

 

[yamyam]

im not an expert by any means.

but in flower, Calcium Phosphate, end of story.

biomin an metalosate are good choices for low or no N. I remember one point biomin had an inexpensive calcium powder. Hate the water weight and the dilution tax. but the metalosate powder is nice, even better foliar.

Id stay away from any calcium with any sodium. Other problem is not all ingredients are listed in the analysis. while the plant uses some sodium, i beleive its said anything over 50ppm is detrimential. Most manfactuers do not list the sodium on their analysis. especially the cheap mfg processes.



it helps to get the medium ph in check. it can make or brake the correct absorbtion. U can have all the calicum in the world but if your ph is outside proper range calcium will be picked up at fractional rates.

Other problem is some of the PH charts are not as acurate as we thought. They show a wide range of availbility. but from more recent reading of scholarly articles it shows a soil ph of 6.4 is ideal. an most charts show a ph of 7 as ok. That upper range is fine for most. But, when you start smacking the plants with higher PPFD, move them into the fast lane, changes happen fast. Deficiencies are only 24hrs away.

If you take another insert from big ag, calcium is stacked early on in the tissue. Pre flower and into an through out the whole cycle till just before harvest. You need to build a reserve before the plant enters the high demanding environment. Leaf tissue analysis is one way big ag observes calcium.

In a fast paced environment in flower, once you see the deficiency signs, its to late to get that plant into the top percentile of what it was once capable of.

calcium shelfs

Seems like soil has a few different options but for good bioavailability in Coco it seems to only come down to a few

 

[RuBp]

Making sure you have new root growth and good transpiration will get more Ca into the plant than adding anymore Ca than what you are already adding. When you give the plant lets say CaNO3, the plant will uptake the nitrate quickly but that doesnt equate to that Ca getting taken up immediately, tommorow or ever. Some can leach some can keep the CEC fullfilled, some will be taken up but only at the root tip, and tranpiration is occuring.

 

[gmanwho]

Seems like soil has a few different options but for good bioavailability in Coco it seems to only come down to a few

Coco probably makes it even worse with a reduced sponge effect to hold onto nutrients.

 

[Drop That Sound]

it helps to get the medium ph in check. it can make or brake the correct absorbtion. U can have all the calicum in the world but if your ph is outside proper range calcium will be picked up at fractional rates.

For sure, PH is crucial..

Adding all the calcium in the world to the medium will lock out other nutrients and become toxic af, so not really a good idea! I know that's not what you meant though, lol.


Calcium excess is all too often is the cause of plant problems, and seems to fly under the radar. Easy to go overboard and be misdiagnosed for something else. Especially for new growers who want their plants to have strong bones and pump the cal/mag. Next thing, you're running around in the other directions, chasing look alike "deficiencies" that don't really exist.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Calcium Phosphate

Even worse than calcium carbonate.

Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's why you can't mix fertilizers containing phosphor and calcium in one stock solution.

Seems like soil has a few different options but for good bioavailability in Coco it seems to only come down to a few

If you're watering by hand and mixing the nutrient solution fresh, you can use organic sources like calcium acetate or citrate on coco without any issues. Bioavailability isn't a problem.

However, it shouldn't go into the tank (unless you're replacing the nutrient solution afterward). Most organic compounds also serve as carbon sources for microorganisms, so you'll quickly contaminate your nutrient solution if you leave stuff like that in there for too long.

The only calcium sources that work reliably in nutrient solution for a longer time are calcium nitrate, calcium chloride, and calcium sulfate (would say sulfate is the best way if you still want to cut N - it's soluble enough to bring a bit more calcium into the solution (2.63 g/L (25 °C)).

A simple cheatsheet for macro nutrient additions in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com

 

[Ca++]

Some have mixed calcium phosphate into the coco, when reusing it.
It's a soil thing really. Like egg shells, which are calcium carbonate.
If egg shells were free, I would still buy micronised calcium carbonate, rather than process shells. Most hydro/coco growers are going to agree. There is enough to do already, without soaking egg shells in vinegar, and guessing what you made. Vinegar isn't even a valid acid, unless you are an organic grower with that mindset.

 

[LJ farming]

Just my opinion!!!

No N Calmag is not necessarily needed when running Salts! Just subtract more of the CalNit in your end solution.

I have used my variation of something similar to Bill Fs recommended BALLIN ON A BUDGET recipe that calls for Growmore No N flowering CalMag since the day I started COCO DTW.

TPS makes an organic no N CalMag that is similar price to the Growmore

However IMO GH Calimagic that only has
1-0-0 N works well! The Calcium concentration is there and as long as you subtract a little more CALNIT 15-0-0 from your salts the 1-0-0 of Calimagic or any other CalMag doesn’t matter enough to worry about getting your panties tide up in a knot You might want to subtract a little of the MagSul as well when adding CALMAG to reduce the CALNIT?

Fulvic/Humic Acid is the miracle ingredient when running salts! Again IMO!




Salute to the ones that lost their lives for our FREEDOM! Say a prayer for their families on this Memorial Day and every Memorial Day from now on!

Peace

 

[LJ farming]

Even worse than calcium carbonate.

View attachment 19207546

Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's why you can't mix fertilizers containing phosphor and calcium in one stock solution.


If you're watering by hand and mixing the nutrient solution fresh, you can use organic sources like calcium acetate or citrate on coco without any issues. Bioavailability isn't a problem.

However, it shouldn't go into the tank (unless you're replacing the nutrient solution afterward). Most organic compounds also serve as carbon sources for microorganisms, so you'll quickly contaminate your nutrient solution if you leave stuff like that in there for too long.

The only calcium sources that work reliably in nutrient solution for a longer time are calcium nitrate, calcium chloride, and calcium sulfate (would say sulfate is the best way if you still want to cut N - it's soluble enough to bring a bit more calcium into the solution (2.63 g/L (25 °C)).

A simple cheatsheet for macro nutrient additions in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com

Calcium Citrate is not a viable source?

It is where more than one no N CalMags get their Calcium from! It is perfectly soluble!

You might want to use Potassium Bicarbonate to bring the pH up so that you don’t create antagonistic reactions because the citric acid puts the ph in the toilet and typical Hydro Store pH up can ruin what you are trying to accomplish as well as costs a fortune.

I’m pretty sure if you are trying to lower the N the last half of the flower cycle a little extra Potassium can’t hurt???

Disclaimer: I only do what works for me and have NEVER studied anything about nutrients or plants at a university or on the internet

Peace

 

[LJ farming]

Even worse than calcium carbonate.

View attachment 19207546

Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's why you can't mix fertilizers containing phosphor and calcium in one stock solution.


If you're watering by hand and mixing the nutrient solution fresh, you can use organic sources like calcium acetate or citrate on coco without any issues. Bioavailability isn't a problem.

However, it shouldn't go into the tank (unless you're replacing the nutrient solution afterward). Most organic compounds also serve as carbon sources for microorganisms, so you'll quickly contaminate your nutrient solution if you leave stuff like that in there for too long.

The only calcium sources that work reliably in nutrient solution for a longer time are calcium nitrate, calcium chloride, and calcium sulfate (would say sulfate is the best way if you still want to cut N - it's soluble enough to bring a bit more calcium into the solution (2.63 g/L (25 °C)).

A simple cheatsheet for macro nutrient additions in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com

Last one for the night!

Running a LIVE reservoir and correctly feeding the micros INCREASES TERPS! Don’t kill the good bacteria running sterile if you like to taste and smell the terps

Peace

 

[Drop That Sound]

Calcium Citrate is not a viable source?

It is where more than one no N CalMags get their Calcium from! It is perfectly soluble!

You might want to use Potassium Bicarbonate to bring the pH up so that you don’t create antagonistic reactions because the citric acid puts the ph in the toilet and typical Hydro Store pH up can ruin what you are trying to accomplish as well as costs a fortune.

I’m pretty sure if you are trying to lower the N the last half of the flower cycle a little extra Potassium can’t hurt???

Disclaimer: I only do what works for me and have NEVER studied anything about nutrients or plants at a university or on the internet

Peace

As long as you aren't using a ton of it! lol




Happy Memorial day yo!

 

[gmanwho]

Even worse than calcium carbonate.

View attachment 19207546

Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's why you can't mix fertilizers containing phosphor and calcium in one stock solution.


If you're watering by hand and mixing the nutrient solution fresh, you can use organic sources like calcium acetate or citrate on coco without any issues. Bioavailability isn't a problem.

However, it shouldn't go into the tank (unless you're replacing the nutrient solution afterward). Most organic compounds also serve as carbon sources for microorganisms, so you'll quickly contaminate your nutrient solution if you leave stuff like that in there for too long.

The only calcium sources that work reliably in nutrient solution for a longer time are calcium nitrate, calcium chloride, and calcium sulfate (would say sulfate is the best way if you still want to cut N - it's soluble enough to bring a bit more calcium into the solution (2.63 g/L (25 °C)).

A simple cheatsheet for macro nutrient additions in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com

Ya its tough to get nutrients to play well in a liquid suspension.

There is a fine powder calcium rock phosphate that can be added to reservoirs. Small enough that it can be ran through irrigation lines. And as @RuBp mentioned root tips, the powder is fine enough to pass through the root tips for absorption. Or product is claimed too atleast.

theres alot of amazing products out there if you cut out all the canna specific companies. Lot of white labeling an rebranding an adding a green tax. helps to shop around

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Running a LIVE reservoir and correctly feeding the micros INCREASES TERPS! Don’t kill the good bacteria running sterile if you like to taste and smell the terps

Micros = MOs? You want them in the substrate, not in your tank.

Tried "organic hydro" myself, but you can’t control which microorganisms grow how strongly, what exactly they release as PGPSs, or whether you’re also cultivating pathogens in the tank through the nutrients.

Citrates, amino-based fertilizers and individual amino acids, algae extracts, ascorbic acid, chitosan … all (and more..) tested thoroughly in the tank with and without PGPMs - first live, then side-by-side in test buckets - after nothing was working in the tank^^

After just a few days, all of it throws the nutrient solution’s pH out of balance, and depending on the additive, the solution ends up looking more or less nasty. Fulvic acid (from Humintech at least) is the only organic additive which doesn't make problems in the tank.

Mode of Action of Bacillus spp. (Subtilis, Megaterium, Pumilus, etc.) as PGPBs​

1. Substances Released by Bacillus Species and Their Timing:


PGPBs like Bacillus subtilis, B. megaterium, and B. pumilus support plant health by releasing various bioactive compounds during different growth stages. Their activity depends on environmental conditions, population density, and resource availability:

• Early colonization / exponential growth phase:
  • Siderophores: Chelate iron and deprive pathogens of essential micronutrients.
  • Antimicrobial peptides: Such as surfactin, fengycin, and iturin—these lyse pathogen membranes.
  • Organic acids: Help solubilize phosphates and micronutrients.
• Stationary phase / biofilm formation:
  • Biofilms: Create a protective microbial barrier on the root surface.
  • Indole-3-acetic acid (IAA): A phytohormone that promotes root growth.
  • ACC deaminase: Reduces plant stress by lowering ethylene levels.

---

Nutrient Use and Competition​

2. Nutritional Strategy and Pathogen Suppression:

• Bacillus spp. are facultative heterotrophs, meaning they thrive on organic carbon sources such as:
  • Root exudates (sugars, amino acids, organic acids).
  • Decaying plant matter.
  • Additives in nutrient solutions (e.g., humic/fulvic acids, amino acids, seaweed extracts).
• Competition: These bacteria often share the same nutrient sources with pathogens (e.g., Pythium, Fusarium, Botrytis). The difference lies in their:
  • Fast colonization rate.
  • Production of inhibitory metabolites.
  • Efficient root attachment via biofilms.

Thus, effective PGPBs outcompete pathogens not by exclusive nutrition, but by rapid colonization and by altering the local biochemical environment.

Why Colonization in Nutrient Tanks Is Problematic​

3. Issues with Bacterial Growth in Nutrient Reservoirs or Lines:


Allowing Bacillus spp. to colonize nutrient tanks or irrigation lines can lead to several problems:

• Biofilm Formation: Bacillus naturally form biofilms. In tanks, this leads to:
  • Clogging of drippers and filters.
  • Uneven nutrient distribution.
• Nutrient Depletion or Conversion:
  • They may metabolize valuable carbon additives (e.g., amino acids, fulvic acids) before reaching the rhizosphere.
  • This reduces availability to plants or alters nutrient composition (e.g., nitrogen form shifts).
• Population Imbalance:
  • Without plant root signals (exudates), Bacillus behavior changes.
  • May produce sporulation factors or secondary metabolites not ideal in tanks.
  • Risk of synergistic growth of opportunistic microbes, including unwanted biofilm-formers or pathogens.
• Anaerobic zones in tanks (e.g., low-flow corners) can promote undesirable microbial fermentation, creating phytotoxic by-products like organic acids or alcohols.

---

Conclusion​

While Bacillus spp. are powerful allies in plant health and biocontrol, they are most effective when applied directly to the root zone or rhizosphere. Their colonization in nutrient tanks, where plant-derived signals are absent and nutrient resources are shared with other microbes, can lead to system inefficiencies, clogging, and unwanted microbial shifts.

But giving the plants every six days this per hand, including foliar application of chitosan, aminos, kelp in veg and the first few weeks of flower (chito till end).

@LJ farming I was about to say - your tank looked a little bit dirty, and that might be because of the citrate

PS:

And as @RuBp mentioned root tips, the powder is fine enough to pass through the root tips for absorption

"Highly questionable. This claim lacks scientific basis. Plant roots absorb nutrients as ions (like Ca²⁺ or PO₄³⁻), not particles. Even nano-scale particles generally don’t "pass through" root tips unless via endocytosis, which is rare and not a typical nutrient uptake route."

This is what GPT says about it. It would be news to me as well if calcium or phosphorus didn’t have to be absorbed as ions.

 

[yamyam]

Calcium EDTA looks like a pretty good candidate

• Stable at wide range of pH
• Does not affect pH as much as Acetate or Gluconate
• no organic compounds like Acetate or Gluconate (useful for keeping lines clean in autopot)
• Very stable in nutrient solution and often used in hydroponics

it is on the pricier side though but i believe cheaper than Calmag bottles

 

[LJ farming]

Micros = MOs? You want them in the substrate, not in your tank.

Tried "organic hydro" myself, but you can’t control which microorganisms grow how strongly, what exactly they release as PGPSs, or whether you’re also cultivating pathogens in the tank through the nutrients.

Citrates, amino-based fertilizers and individual amino acids, algae extracts, ascorbic acid, chitosan … all (and more..) tested thoroughly in the tank with and without PGPMs - first live, then side-by-side in test buckets - after nothing was working in the tank^^

After just a few days, all of it throws the nutrient solution’s pH out of balance, and depending on the additive, the solution ends up looking more or less nasty. Fulvic acid (from Humintech at least) is the only organic additive which doesn't make problems in the tank.





But giving the plants every six days this per hand, including foliar application of chitosan, aminos, kelp in veg and the first few weeks of flower (chito till end).

View attachment 19208304

@LJ farming I was about to say - your tank looked a little bit dirty, and that might be because of the citrate

PS:

"Highly questionable. This claim lacks scientific basis. Plant roots absorb nutrients as ions (like Ca²⁺ or PO₄³⁻), not particles. Even nano-scale particles generally don’t "pass through" root tips unless via endocytosis, which is rare and not a typical nutrient uptake route."

This is what GPT says about it. It would be news to me as well if calcium or phosphorus didn’t have to be absorbed as ions.

I wish I could understand why anyone would waste money on organic hydro??????

Let the dirt farmers have all the organic credit! They honestly do an amazing job with their terps and quality however the QUANTITY is not even close to hydro as far as I know????

I have ran Jacks since the day I started COCO DTW.

Adding Mr Fulvic is an amazing buffer for ph fluctuations!

$15 per year of a Hydroguard substitute that is 1000 more concentrated to take care of anaerobic activity is cheap and easy!

My DTW reservoir is replenished on a as needed basis. This makes it easy to change what is added depending on the stage of growth.

Pathogens? Fortunately for me I have never had an issue! I attribute this to an ole head teaching me how important air circulation is. I cried about buying 2 fans for each 700 watt LED in the beginning but there might be something to his story????

The TPS organic CALMAG that has been on the shelf forever and needs go to the landfill. Like I said CaliMagic that is 1-0-0 works for me!

PH fluctuations? Definitely! The ph gets set between 5.0-6.0. in the mixing reservoir and is then added to the main reservoir. The activity of the micros definitely create a dirty reservoir and ph fluctuations this is one many benefits micros in COCO DTW!

I ran sterile one or two times or years or something but once a new school wizard taught me about running a dirty/live reservoir I have never looked back.

If anyone knows the way and the light please send me the detailed directions otherwise I guess I will just keep plugging along.

We have already been down this road Dr Dutch that knows so much! You know more than everyone and grow better weed!

Peace out

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Calcium EDTA looks like a pretty good candidate

• Stable at wide range of pH
• Does not affect pH as much as Acetate or Gluconate
• no organic compounds like Acetate or Gluconate (useful for keeping lines clean in autopot)
• Very stable in nutrient solution and often used in hydroponics

it is on the pricier side though but i believe cheaper than Calmag bottles

Nope, not a good idea:

Calcium EDTA and its problems in hydroponics – Science in Hydroponics

scienceinhydroponics.com

Let the dirt farmers have all the organic credit! They honestly do an amazing job with their terps and quality however the QUANTITY is not even close to hydro as far as I know????

Hmm, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean? Organic in soil, with slow-release fertilization from animal-based sources that also provide aminos, plus kelp meal mixed into the soil? I use all that stuff too, just not in the reservoir. Basic fertilization doesn’t make a difference – the idea that organic would taste better is an urban myth. And even that stuff above is really just meant to promote healthier, better-growing plants.

$15 per year of a Hydroguard substitute that is 1000 more concentrated to take care of anaerobic activity is cheap and easy!

My DTW reservoir is replenished on a as needed basis. This makes it easy to change what is added depending on the stage of growth.

Yeah, in DTW that might make sense, since you can't inoculate the plants any other way. In that case, all the water is in constant contact with the plant – unlike in a DTW drip system.
However, I’ve already tried a “Hydroguard substitute” side by side. Even just adding B. amyloliquefaciens to the nutrient solution ruins it.

PH fluctuations? Definitely! The ph gets set between 5.0-6.0. in the mixing reservoir and is then added to the main reservoir. The activity of the micros definitely create a dirty reservoir and ph fluctuations this is one many benefits micros in COCO DTW!

I ran sterile one or two times or years or something but once a new school wizard taught me about running a dirty/live reservoir I have never looked back.

If anyone knows the way and the light please send me the detailed directions otherwise I guess I will just keep plugging along.

As I said: Don't add organics in your tank for longer time.
You really have no idea what exactly is growing there and what's being released. So even if we assume that only the beneficial microbes are multiplying and releasing beneficial substances, you still have no idea how much of those they’re actually producing. On the plant, it’s the plant itself that regulates this through root exudates - it controls how strongly the bacteria can grow on it and what substances they release, like IBA for example.
But in the reservoir, you can’t control that.
We could take a look at which PGPBs can utilize citrate, from my old excel

+, positive; −, negative; w, weak reaction; v, variable reaction; +/-, conflicting data

- and then ask GPT what substances they tend to produce.

Bacillus subtilis​

Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs):

• Indole-3-acetic acid (IAA) – Auxin; promotes root development
• Gibberellins – Stimulate stem elongation, seed germination
• Cytokinins – Promote cell division and shoot development
• ACC deaminase – Lowers ethylene levels, reduces plant stress

Other Bioactive Substances:

• Surfactin – Antimicrobial lipopeptide; disrupts biofilms
• Iturin – Potent antifungal, damages fungal membranes
• Fengycin – Strongly antifungal
• Siderophores – Chelate iron, suppress pathogens via iron starvation
• Exopolysaccharides (EPS) – Aid in root surface colonization and soil structure

---

Bacillus pumilus​

PGRs:

• IAA
• Gibberellins
• Cytokinins (less documented)
• ACC deaminase

Other Bioactive Substances:

• Pumilacidin – Antimicrobial lipopeptide
• Subtilisin-like proteases – Inhibit pathogen activity
• Siderophores
• Biofilm-enhancing compounds – Support root colonization

---

Bacillus megaterium​

PGRs:

• IAA – Well-studied auxin producer
• Gibberellins
• ACC deaminase

Other Bioactive Substances:

• Phosphate-solubilizing enzymes – Enhance phosphorus availability
• Polyhydroxybutyrate (PHB) – Storage compound; stress tolerance
• Siderophores
• Exoenzymes – Aid in nutrient release and rhizosphere activity

---

Bacillus amyloliquefaciens​

PGRs:

• IAA
• Gibberellins
• Cytokinins
• ACC deaminase

Other Bioactive Substances:

• Bacillomycin D – Strong antifungal activity
• Iturin A
• Fengycin
• Difficidin – Broad-spectrum antibacterial
• Macrolactin – Antibacterial with wide activity range
• Siderophores
• Biofilm-forming agents – Effective rhizosphere colonizer

So this would be a selection of substances that can be present in the tank when you have a “live” reservoir. Many of these compounds are things you’d only want in very small amounts on the plant itself.

Applying citrate directly to the plant isn’t a bad idea - it acts as an organic chelator and improves nutrient uptake, since plants can absorb citrate. But if you have it in the tank, your microbes will just consume it and turn it into who knows what. And if you don't add microbes in your tank but add citrate, some other MOs will grow there for sure

 

[Treetroit City]

Yeah, in DTW that might make sense, since you can't inoculate the plants any other way. In that case, all the water is in constant contact with the plant – unlike in a DTW drip system.

Can you explain this further? Assuming by DTW you mean drip to waste.
“In drip to waste it makes sense - unlike in a drip to waste drip system”?

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Yeah, in DTW DWC that might make sense, since you can't inoculate the plants any other way. In that case, all the water is in constant contact with the plant – unlike in a DTW drip system.

Thank you @Treetroit City. Little mistake, this is correct. And "Drain to waste drip system" at the end

 

[Treetroit City]

Thank you @Treetroit City. Little mistake, this is correct. And "Drain to waste drip system" at the end

Ahh, makes much more sense now, thank you. I was genuinely trying to follow along.

 

[LJ farming]

Right, wrong, or indifferent if I could breed this $40 per grow shit in my reservoir I would send everyone some! Mr Fulvic/Humic, Hydraguard substitute, and Great White have special places in the nutrient cabinet and the only things that can be considered organic IMO.

Besides that it’s Jacks 3-2-1 and Calimagic. Perhaps some potions my Dutch grandmother left me from the old country and some shit for rooting clones. It really is that simple.