Calcium/Ph/Overfed/Rootbound???

[blaze361]

I've got three tables under 1k hps each. Two 3ft tables and one 4ft table. 4ft table is an old hardy strain I've had for 7+ years that I've always known as Sweet Island Skunk. Two 3ft tables are supposedly Dj Short's Blueberry that I acquired within the past year. Room is sealed with CO2. Temps range from ~63º at night to 83º F during the day. My tap water is very hard. It comes out of the faucet at ~350-500ppm. According to a 2009 water report this is mostly(338ppm) of Cal/mag due to the abundant limestone in the area.

I switched from aeroponic to soil pots on my flowering tables as well as DWC to soil pot for my mums since my runs were decimated by root rot even after using richyrich's Tea Recipie(although I suspect I didn't brew mine correctly). I ran aeroponic for almost a year and a half with no problems until I got the rot.

Now using Fox Farm Happy Frog soil. I had great success after initially switching to soil in December with plain tap water, Hydroguard, and GH's 3 part flora series that I've used every since I started in '08. Also used GH's Armor Si and liquid kool bloom as recommended by a friend until I ran out. I quit using them after I ran out because I was never a big believer in all the additives. I was very lax in my feedings. I would do about full recommended nutes @ 800-1000ppm of 3/2/1 with bloom/micro/grow about once every week or two with fresh tap water in between. I watered as needed which was about once every 3-5 days, making sure they were fully dried out between watering since I was so afraid of root rot. Never had to ph balance as the flora series generally brings my 6.8-7.1 tap water to 5.8-6.0.

In December, I pretty much flowered as soon as all clones were rooted. Naturally This led to very small yields of 6-10oz per 1k. After a few successful harvest, I started vegging longer since I didn't need to rush things so much.

Problems really started creeping up in February though. Started seeing what I thought was a calcium deficiency so I started giving nute feedings more frequently. Made sense to me since my girls were overall a bit bigger. Things continued going downhill though. I tested my run off and it was showing 6.0-6.5 ph @ about 900-1100ppm. Also started seeing what I assumed was burnt tips as the deficiency progressed. This led me to believe I was actually giving it too many nutes.

I have closely documented my feedings for the past month.
Currently using RO water with Hydroguard and Root Excelurator Ph'ed to 6.3 @ 50ppm in between feedings.
I've given the Island 400ppm of Reverse Osmosis water, Calimag, GH's Flora series Drain to Waste feeding recommendation, Hydrogaurd, and Root excelurator on the 5th of April and again on the 21st. Run off is 6.3ph and ~500ppm. Same with the Blueberry on the 21st of April. Same runoff.

This is one table of Blueberry that is scheduled to finish in less than a week.

 

[blaze361]

This is a second table of Blueberry that is 8 days into flowering. Deficiencies are starting to set in.

 

[blaze361]

This is the third table of Island that is 22 days in to flowering

 

[stihgnobevoli]

you need to feed more food as the plants get bigger. all i see is a bunch of hungry plants. if your tap water is already high in calcium and elements in general why not skip the calmag and micro portions of your nutrient mix and just add npk only so you don't have to worry about overfeeding. my tap comes out at 200ppm. i rarely add extra calcium and micros.

 

[blaze361]

you need to feed more food as the plants get bigger. all i see is a bunch of hungry plants. if your tap water is already high in calcium and elements in general why not skip the calmag and micro portions of your nutrient mix and just add npk only so you don't have to worry about overfeeding. my tap comes out at 200ppm. i rarely add extra calcium and micros.

That's what I initially tried to do when I first saw the problems in Feb/March. I was feeding with tap water @ 800-1000ppm with GH flora and hydroguard. I would water with plain tap one after every two-three feeding. The problems just persisted.

It wasn't until the end of March to now that I started using Reverse osmosis water and the calmag.

I have been checking other soil threads and they seem to use much less nutrients. This plus the burnt tips had me believe that I'm possibly locking out some nutrients.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

all i see in your pictures is a bunch of nitrogen and phosphorous deficiency. macro nutrients. not micros.

 

[blaze361]

Here are some more pics of the 8 days into flowering table


Here is a pic of the roots 2-3 days after watering

I don't really want to use my tap water now that I got my RO system up and running again. It creates quite a mess on my reservoirs, hoses, and destroys my pumps.

How high should i got with the ppm for plants like these with RO water and GH flora in soil? Should I use Calmag? Did the Armor Si and Kool bloom make that much of a difference in my first couple of soil runs?

Thanks for the reply and any possible further advice I really appreciate it!

 

[stihgnobevoli]

the ppm's don't change. whatever you were feeding at before is what you should keep feeding at. you just adjust how much nutes you actually add to the water based on whatever ppms are already present.

is you start with 0 ppm water and want 800ppm at the end then add nutes to reach 800. if you start with 500ppm water add nutes to reach 800ppms. if you're using RO now then stay with it and add back the calmag like you're supposed to.

 

[Skinny Leaf]

I agree with stihgnobevoli, you are not feeding them enough. With that little of soil you should feed more often. I would probably feed twice, then water, feed twice then water. It doesn't look like you could go more than two days and they would need watering. I would feed 1000-1200ppm. Maybe skip all the additives. The nutes should be sufficient.

 

[53A50N3D H3RB]

the ppm's don't change. whatever you were feeding at before is what you should keep feeding at. you just adjust how much nutes you actually add to the water based on whatever ppms are already present.

is you start with 0 ppm water and want 800ppm at the end then add nutes to reach 800. if you start with 500ppm water add nutes to reach 800ppms. if you're using RO now then stay with it and add back the calmag like you're supposed to.

This is wrong. 800ppm of a balanced nutrient is not the same as 500ppm of balanced nutrient plus 300 of ca/mg lulz.


If my tap water comes out at 500ppm and my Target ppm is 600 you suggest I only add 100ppms of my nute mix???


Use the RO and feed accordingly 500-1000ppms depending on age.

Check runoff for build-up of nutrient in medium

Looks like nitrogen deficiency.

 

[TedNugget]

Are you still letting the pots fully dry out before watering?
That can cause some serious problems. Every time you let them go dry, all the little feeder roots die. Dead roots = all sorts of problems.

You want to water when the soil is dry 1/2 to 1 inch on the surface. When you stick your finger in and it's dry to like your second knuckle (at most), it's time to water.

I'm not saying that is what's causing all your problems, but it's definitely not helping in my opinion.

 

[TedNugget]

As far as feeding, I feed my soil plants once every 3 waterings. I go feed water water and I haven't had plants look like yours. From my experience, over feeding in soil is usually a bigger problem than under feeding. Happy frog already has a bunch of nutes in it. I've actually done full grows with happy frog and water, no nutrients. They were slightly under fed but not looking like yours. Just some yellow leaves, not all dried up and crispy. Burnt leaf tips is over feeding.
If you want to feed with every watering, you should go with a pro mix or sunshine mix or something else with no nutrients in it.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. I honestly don't know the exact cause of your problem. My guess would be some sort of nutrient lock out plus under watering killing off the feeder roots. I think it's a combination of a couple of problems but I am just making an educated guess here. It very well could be the under feeding like those above said, but I don't think it is in that happy frog with all the nutes you are already giving.
Look at the list of nutrients that happy frog already has in it - earthworm castings (nitrogen) bat guano (phosphorus), humus, oyster shell and dolomite lime (cal and mag).
You should not need to feed more than once every other watering at most in that soil. I don't anyways. Unless it's a super heavy feeding plant... Less nutrient usually equals better taste and quality from my experience.

I would also go to an organic nutrient if I were you. You're in soil, you may as well. Plus it's harder to over feed an organic nutrient. Organic nutrient with some added beneficials (mycorrhizae and bacteria, liquid or powder it don't matter).

 

[blaze361]

I've watered the girls on the morning of the 28th with RO water and 1020ppm of calmag(300ppm)/nutrients ph'ed to 6.2. So far they really seem to like it. I believe growth is a bit more vigorous than before. I could just be optimistic though, seeing what I want to see.
I am humoring the idea that my batch of nutrients might be tainted so I am using Maxibloom now.
I re-calibrated my Ph meter. I discovered it was about -0.2 off, but that's not enough to alarm me.
FYI I usually water till I have about 5-15% run off no matter what I'm doing.

I may be letting them dry out too much which I think could be a big part of the problem. I've been so afraid of root rot that I'm reluctant to water more than every 3 days. Although I suspect that with my pot size/soil amount as well as the Happy Frog that has so many bennies, that I need not to worry about it as much as before. I'll water every other day now. Still not sure whether to feed nutes or plain water tomorrow.

Also, I am aware Happy Frog has enough nutes in it to sustain the plants for a reasonable amount of time. I usually use plain water for a week or two after transplanting to cups then pots.

I know the wide shots show a clear pattern of yellowing and overall n-p-k deficiencies but I think that attributes to my solutions to fix what I thought was a calcium deficiency/lockout.
When my problems first arose, they were late into flowering and looked almost identical to these shots from Joe's Fresh Guide to Sick Plant Diagnosis

My ph was on point and my run off was at 1000-1100ppm when they looked like that. My watering cycle was basically feed feed water. That's when I figured it was a lockout issue and started almost exclusively watering with fresh water.
Now I have the same spots + advanced yellowing thanks to the lack of nutes with a run off of ~400-500pm. Like I said, I fed the Island twice in it's 22 days of flowering and the blueberry once in it 8 days. I don't think it's a lockout issue at this point since I have the same spots and I'm using far less nutrients now. This led me to rethink my problems and finally post on here.

I don't believe it to be root rot as the rhizosphere looks phenomenal. Could it possibly be some other type of pathogen that exist in my flower room? If so, it's not easy to spread as my veg closet looks great and I'm not the most sanitary person. I figured it would have by now if that was the case.

The issues first show up in the oldest fan leaves and works it way up to the top which is contrary to what Joe's Guide says. (Even though the example pictures on the guide appear to be older fan leaves as well)

Generally the new growth and rapidly growing tissues of the plant are affected first. The mature leaves are rarely if ever affected because calcium accumulates to high concentrations in older leaves.

This problem is very much a double edged sword. The deficiency seems to be increasing the susceptibility to bleaching which amplifies the deficiency. The further away from the light the plants are, the less deficiencies it shows.

Circle 1 is a top fan leaf that has symptoms on side that points towards the light, looks great on the side that doesn't.
Circle 2 shows the same but more exaggerated as more of the leaf is exposed to direct light
Circle 3 leaves here are very low and shaded and show almost no deficiencies.

I'm sorry for such a large wall of text but I just want to make sure I can get in every detail of what's going on to narrow down my problems.

Thank you so much for the feedback guys! I appreciate any and all input.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

this last picture is this one yours or also joe fresh?

the first 3 pictures look like ...in order... Ph/calcium/calcium+mag

the last picture is just really really hungry plants like this.

am i mistaken in thinking your pots are mostly empty? cuz from the angle it looks like there's only dirt in like the first 3 inches of the pots.

 

[blaze361]

Yes, the last picture is mine from the original post.

Also yes, they 3.4L pots with about 1L of dirt. Since having so many problems I haven't had an extraordinary amount of roots envelope the medium even with that much dirt as you can imagine.

This is that same plant's root zone from the post before

 

[stihgnobevoli]

you need to give them more room to grow. when they're rootbound like that you need to either feed and water more often or transplant into a bigger pot. considering how small that rootball is, i'm surprised your plants are this big. you're a better grower than you think lol.

if you plan on growing like this in the future i would fill the pot up with soil and repot those when you go to 12/12. you should find you don't have these issues next time till much later on flower. they're just hungry.

 

[blaze361]

considering how small that rootball is, i'm surprised your plants are this big. you're a better grower than you think lol.

It's a really good strain.
Here's an album of it from 2012 in hydroponics

I will definitely be filling up the pots more next go around.
I have the means to veg longer now that things are more stable. Just a run or two ago, these girls were much smaller and didn't really fill out the pots as well. So I'm used to not having to fill it as much. Also I was broke and couldn't afford to

 

[Dion]

+1 on the food- dunno about thsi strain but id be upping the ppm each feed untill i see burn/toxicity
unfortunatley with that lil soil u could be running into iron or boron or any of those crazy little bastards we dont thin about def

id feed everytime

you watering everyday right?

 

[blaze361]

I feed every 3-4 days, but now I'm planning on feeding every other day. I'm very scared since I had to switch to soil because of a bad case of root rot when I was in aeroponics.

 

[Dion]

root rot sucks been there

ok start the new feeding and see if they dont get better
take a pic the day you feed and then after the 3rd feed see what changed