BUTANE EXTRACTION AND RECOVERY SYSTEM

[Anything]

What does a Tamisium system sell for with a pumping system?

I don't believe you can buy one with a pumping system, but you can most likely work it into the system I would think.

 

[SB7]

Perhaps a dumb question, but must the material be drier than a pop corn fart in a desert storm for a column/recovery system like these ? I've found I prefer the flavor when using fresh material for extraction. ( I use a thermos to soak ( as opposed to a tube) , ala jump117). The Tamisi_m looks interesting , might get one ,even if it is slow. I'd like to use fresh material with it . Draw backs ?

 

[AmeriSkunk]

Tamisium anyone?????

Im sure these are worth the paper their asking... Just drop the bread for one of these.. No figuring anything out, just doing it... They have a built in recovery and evaporation unit, among other things im sure

this link has a very informative read about butane extraction, it relieved all of my fears about the safety of using butane as a solvent. Its actually used in alot of every day ingestible cooking things, like PAM spray and things like that, read for yourselves

http://www.tamisiumextractors.com/

 

[Rednick]

Uh, why not buy an EZ-Cloner.
Why not pay someone to setup your growroom?
Why not pay someone to run it?
Why make crosses when you can buy seeds?
Why not buy an 'Ebb and Grow'?

"We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard", JFK.

And, more practically these are all just R&D. I feel once the community works out the kinks as SCF CO2 will soon find it's way to The Net.

And if you really want to spend some coin AmeriSkunk try http://www.edenlabs.org/

Edit: Notice the 'How It Works' tab isn't functional (tasmi extractors). Maybe I can insert a link to this thread on the comments section below? That would be funny, huh?

 

[Trichgnomes]

And if you really want to spend some coin AmeriSkunk try http://www.edenlabs.org/

I don't want to jack Greywolf's thread, so I'll most likely start one when I have some free time. But in short, I sampled two different CO2 extracts in a med state (with packaging, and assurance they were both made with the Edenlabs equipment).

They were both extremely expensive, one 60/g, and the other 75/g.

Each of the samples smelled and tasted of "generic hash product."
This could be chalked up to the producers using garbage stale trim for extraction material, which is likely. However, I also have a hunch that CO2 is simply not capable of making as tasty of an extract as butane is.
It costs tens of thousands of dollarss to acquire and safely use a CO2 apparatus, yet a better extract can be obtained with a 7 dollar turkey baster. Go figure...

 

[Rednick]

Definitely I think a lot of it has to do with the temperatures (& pressures) achieved in a true SCF CO2 extraction... usually above 87F and 1,100 psi for the extraction.
Well above anything that Grey Wolf or Doop Roor is achieving.
No as far as using SCF CO2 perhaps the machine could be modified to run at lower temp/pressure? Don't know.
I do know that most the people that have the coin to buy the machines don't know squat about MMJ, they are just business men trying to make a buck.

The significantly lower temperatures and pressures achieved with butane would definitely be more capable of keeping all the stuff more intact and representative of it's original state.

I started reading some technical books on SCF, but then had other things take importance over research. Perhaps someday soon life will slow down and I can contribute more to the R&D here.

Really the stuff I see here and elsewhere we are working in Sub-Critical or even liquid states of the solvents.

Thanks Grey Wolf, Foaf, & DR.

 

[Lazyman]

Yeah Eden's cheapest machine is $37,000.00 and only will process 1 liter of material. To do 5# of material would cost $57,000.00 for their machine.

Crazy prices, I just don't see how they cost so much. Adding up all the parts I have a hard time getting to $10K.

 

[Shcrews]

pretty sweet...

but i still use my big tubes and pyrex, can make up to a pound per day of the best BHO around.

its all about the wrist game

 

[Trichgnomes]

Definitely I think a lot of it has to do with the temperatures (& pressures) achieved in a true SCF CO2 extraction... usually above 87F and 1,100 psi for the extraction.

This. The product tasted and looked like reclaim.

No as far as using SCF CO2 perhaps the machine could be modified to run at lower temp/pressure? Don't know.

I doubt it. Pretty sure the high temp/pressure is what makes CO2 supercritical. This is what leads me to believe that even with good quality starting material, the extract will be bland and lacking of terpenes.

 

[foaf]

how do you make sure that you dont use too much butane, such that it over fills the pot?
I've tried a column setup with mine, and I tried setting the butane storage tank on a refrigerant scale, but the hoses and all the action and motion make that imperfect. My tank holds more than my pots can, and over filling is a mess since oil containing butane goes into the pump and I'm sure would gum it up.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Perhaps a dumb question, but must the material be drier than a pop corn fart in a desert storm for a column/recovery system like these ? I've found I prefer the flavor when using fresh material for extraction. ( I use a thermos to soak ( as opposed to a tube) , ala jump117). The Tamisi_m looks interesting , might get one ,even if it is slow. I'd like to use fresh material with it . Draw backs ?

My final design calls for a heating/refrigeration cooling coil around the column, which would allow running fresh frozen material.

Frozen material could be run without a refrigeration coil on a cold day or with a shorter 12" column, the unit it will fit in a freezer.

The system as shown has maximum length 48" (300 grams) column. I have enough Schedule 10 stainless pipe to also make a 36", a 24", and a 12" column for running smaller faster loads.

Tough choice between just real tasty and damn tasty for me, but I have tried brother Jumps frozen fresh material process as well, and agree it would be hard to beat it for flavor when vaporizing or smoking.

The volunteer test panels that I've used, agrees with that accessment as well.

For oral and topical meds, that advantage disappears however and yield per cycle is more than 5 times greater on cured material than fresh frozen.

Leaving the water in adds inactive ingredient weight and takes away column volume.

I have never personally used a Tas. system, but hear good things about them online and they are sure a pretty thang in their pictures!

Please do let us know your thoughts after you pick one up and operate it for a bit!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Definitely I think a lot of it has to do with the temperatures (& pressures) achieved in a true SCF CO2 extraction... usually above 87F and 1,100 psi for the extraction.
Well above anything that Grey Wolf or Doop Roor is achieving.
No as far as using SCF CO2 perhaps the machine could be modified to run at lower temp/pressure? Don't know.
I do know that most the people that have the coin to buy the machines don't know squat about MMJ, they are just business men trying to make a buck.

The significantly lower temperatures and pressures achieved with butane would definitely be more capable of keeping all the stuff more intact and representative of it's original state.

I started reading some technical books on SCF, but then had other things take importance over research. Perhaps someday soon life will slow down and I can contribute more to the R&D here.

Really the stuff I see here and elsewhere we are working in Sub-Critical or even liquid states of the solvents.

Thanks Grey Wolf, Foaf, & DR.

The Schedule 10 304SS column on this system actually has a theoretical burst pressure of 8605 psi, so it would work, but I am using 150 pound ANSI flanges and the pressure pot is only rated at 150 psi.

I have designed a simple minded super critical C02 system using Schedule 160 stainless pipe, and using different a different head design, to accomodate the higher pressures, as well as the expansion and contraction associated with cryogenic temperatures.

I would propose to operate the system at 100F and 1500 psi, which could easily be achieved starting with liquid C02 and then heating it.

More on that subject when it reaches the top of the project list.

 

[Gray Wolf]

how do you make sure that you dont use too much butane, such that it over fills the pot?
I've tried a column setup with mine, and I tried setting the butane storage tank on a refrigerant scale, but the hoses and all the action and motion make that imperfect. My tank holds more than my pots can, and over filling is a mess since oil containing butane goes into the pump and I'm sure would gum it up.

Good point brother Foaf!

My longest column holds 85 cubic inches and the collection pot underneath 785 cubic inches, so I have some margin for error.

I have been using the digital refrigeration scale, that you turned me on to, up to this point. I has worked well enough, but as you note, has its limitations.

Since I have wiggle room, I just started with the assumption that the column was empty of plant material and therefore the 85 cubic inch column would hold 833 grams of butane, assuming a specific gravity of .601.

I set the holding tank on the scale and open the butane control valve until the fluttering scale reads ~minus 900/1000 grams and then shut it off.

In my case, it doesn't matter if I over fill the column, because with the upper valve open, it just runs out the top vent tube and down into the collection vessel below. It can even be used as a flow through extraction in this way, as opposed to a soak, and is how I flush the material in the column afterwards.

What I have planned, is a sight glass on the top vent tube, so that I can see when the liquid reaches that point. So far the only one I have found is for hydraulics and is toooo expensive. More information when I find a suitable one.

 

[SB7]

Hi Gray Wolf,
Thanks for the detailed reply.
Thanks to brother jump117, I'm hooked on the incredible flavor from fresh/frozen.
If it weren't for the amounts of butane I'm going through , I'm not sure I'd even have entertained the idea of setting up or buying a recovery system.
Having said that, I'm leaning towards getting a Tas ( as a first step down the path of recovery enlightenment ) and running fresh/frozen material .
Many thanks to yourself, Foaf an d of course Jump117 for the all the detailed info you have provided, without you guys , I'd never have begun my journey to the BHO side.


Cheers

SB7

 

[jump117]

Hi SB7, Hi Grey Wolf!

yield per cycle is more than 5 times greater on cured material than fresh frozen.

Perhaps such a frightening statistic is due to the weight of water in fresh-frozen material,
since the weight fraction of dry material in fresh frozen approximately 1 / 5,
about the same comparison the volumes.

 

[ElRubio]

+1
Yeah mates!
you´re really rocking this! introducing new concepts every f+*¨in` day!

Thank you very much! im going to puff a lil. Have a superb weekend guys!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hi SB7, Hi Grey Wolf!


Perhaps such a frightening statistic is due to the weight of water in fresh-frozen material,
since the weight fraction of dry material in fresh frozen approximately 1 / 5,
about the same comparison the volumes.

Exactomundo! The amount of oil harvested is about the same, regardless of whether you extract it green, or wait until after it is cured.

The cured material will weigh about 75% less with a 10/15% water content.

 

[mendo420]

You Guys are AWSOME!
I love this thread. Thanks for all the great info!!!
Some day maybe, some day I will try.

 

[AmeriSkunk]

@Gray Wolf, when you butane extract the oil from fresh material is the oil any more gooey vs cured bud oil. When I was growing I was under the impression the butane would extract the wter also, thus pulling chlorophyll as well. Now I know this is just a curiosity question because I know once I hit the bho with the 91% iso alcohol and evap it the texture will be the same regardless if the material was wet or dry.

so basically its just better to use fresh material, in you opinion? if were getting basically the same return? Frozen seems to retain more terpanoids and falvanoids vs dry for obvious reasons from what you fellas are saying. To me it seems like it woiuld be a "more complete" oil if you will.

also hop over the the contaminated thread if you would, I updated it

 

[Gray Wolf]

@Gray Wolf, when you butane extract the oil from fresh material is the oil any more gooey vs cured bud oil. When I was growing I was under the impression the butane would extract the wter also, thus pulling chlorophyll as well. Now I know this is just a curiosity question because I know once I hit the bho with the 91% iso alcohol and evap it the texture will be the same regardless if the material was wet or dry.

so basically its just better to use fresh material, in you opinion? if were getting basically the same return? Frozen seems to retain more terpanoids and falvanoids vs dry for obvious reasons from what you fellas are saying. To me it seems like it woiuld be a "more complete" oil if you will.

also hop over the the contaminated thread if you would, I updated it

Until it is decarboxylated, fresh material is still stiff. Once it is decarboxylated, mine has a slightly lower viscosity than my cured oil.

Butane is a simple non polar Alkane hydrocarbon and compared to polar alcohol, butane is mostly insoluble, but the MSDS says you can still dissolve 61mg per liter of butane in water at 20C/68F.

N-Butane's four carbon atom chain falls right at the border of not really very soluble in water and five carbon chain pentane which is insoluble in water. The three shorter chain Alkanes, namely Methane (1Carbon), Ethane (2C), Propane (3C), as well as Butane (4C), will all pick up some water if it is present in a liquid state.

I sometimes get a light electric green hue to the gold amber extract if you look at a very thin film of it on glass in natural sunlight, but nothing significant.

Actually my opinion is to use it all as-I-finds-it and to just modify the process to accomodate what I got.

For vaporizing flavor, I would do frozen fresh BHO, but in an oral or a topical, that distinction fades and it all works.

BHO from cured material still tastes very good, but tastes more hashy than fresh floral, because it has retained less terpenoids. An un-decarboxylated extraction from cured material will also taste more floral than one that is decarboxylated for the same reason.

The terpenoids all have medicinal qualities and I prefer to preserve them, but they are not as important as the cannabinoids in the overall scheme of things, so if need be for the process, I let them go. It really depends on what I am going to use it for.