Burnt yellow bottom leaves -- Am I over cautious?

[reado]

Hi Everyone

I love ICMag and i'm loving going over the forums but now I need my own help.

This is my first grow and I'm not sure if i'm either doing something wrong or I'm just over reacting.

From what I've seen, so far my little girl (hopefully! ) looks pretty good! Her leaves are coming in nicely, great growth, nice strong stem, etc... but the bottom leaves have been yellowing and now looking like they are getting a bit crispy at certain spots on the leaf tips.

Now, even though this plant is over 3 weeks old, I really haven't given it any nutes... is it possible that I'm under-feeding my plant?

Oh, I also should mention that one of the CFL lights was too close to one of the fan leaves and burnt it slightly... hence why one is super brown in the middle of the leaf

Also, notice that the outside edges of the leaves are starting to get a little light... my guess is that typically these are the locations where the brown spots would start forming

For some reason I can't post pics! Check out my gallery to see the images... anyone else get the "Your Post contains one or more URLs, please remove them before submitting your message again." messages?

How long has this problem been going on?
About 2 weeks. At first the lower leafs just looked a bit yellow and now they are slowly developing brown spots on the leaf tips

What STRAIN are you growing?
White Widow ...

What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
Startin' from seed

What is the age of your plants?
As of the photos, 23 days since I started to germinate the seed

How Tall are the plants?
About 5.5 inches

What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
Just starting veg. I started the seedlings in beer cups, recently moved to 6 inch pots

What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
Will be using SCROG... Red_greenery method!

What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)
6" inch pot... not sure the gallons but probably about a 1 gallon pot

What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)
I'm using a 50% pro-mix, 25% vermiculite and 25% perlite.
I am NOT using any additional supplementary nutrients like lime, epsom salts, etc.

What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water?
I am using Botanicare Pure Blend grow for my nutes, and Grozyme.

So far I've only been using distilled water. When i transplanted my plant from beer cups to the 6", I used about 1/8 the amount of Botanicare & grozyme's directions for seedlings.

How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
I've only done it once. The last time I watered was slightly over a week ago, when I check the soil, its now pretty dry so I was going to just water and 1/4 Grozyme for veg instead of seedlings

What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
Uhm, no clue.

What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
I haven't tested it yet but I was planing to when I watered this time around. I figured that with the pro-mix and distilled water my pH should be a non-issue but maybe I'm wrong...

What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
I would be using a liquid pH test

How often are you watering?
When the soil gets dry. So far, with the size of my estimated root bulb I'm probably looking at every 4-5 days

When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?
Last feeding was 8 days ago and i was thinking of just doing every other watering

What size bulb are you using?
I'm using 4 x 23W CFL's in a rubbermaid tub for my veg at 24/7 but I'm thinking about going 18/6 to try to reduce the heat being produced

What is the distance to the canopy?
About 3-5 inches

What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)
Uhm, no clue... probably good though, like it doesn't seem overly dry in the box. I've tried to just place a cup of water to increase humidity but its probably pointless

What is the canopy temperature?
About 81... it fluctuates between 80-85... i'm having troubles trying to reduce the temps, especially since the grow tub is in a closet.

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
Same as above

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
I have a fabreeze air filter sucking hot air out of my grow tub (Red_greenery's veg box design) with a large hole cut out the bottom to allow proper air intake. I don't know the cfm of the fabreeze fan but I tried to make the intake hole 2x the size of the exhaust hole

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
I have a small computer fan (again, I don't know the CFM but i've under-voltage the fan to run at 9v instead of 12v) blowing the steams and leaves of my plants... but its not too strong... just enough so the leaves / stems are always moving

Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
No, the soil is generally dry to the touch with moisture located below the first .5 inch of soil

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
I used distilled water I bought from the drug store

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well
water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Distilled

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
Nope

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
Nope

Are plant's infected with pest's?
I HIGHLY doubt it... this is a pretty small grow and I'm sure I would have seen something to suggest otherwise

 

[reado]

Hey everyone..

As a bit of a follow up..

I did end up needed to water (& added Grozyme) my plant so I couldn't wait for anyone's advice on how to proceed.

I ran a pH test on the grozyme water and it looked like the pH was pretty low... like around 3 or so

I then watered my plant and ran a pH test of the run off and it looks like the pH is closer to around 5.5-6.5

Would a low pH potentially cause the problems i'm encountering?

 

[jarff]

ph at 3 ?? you,re lucky you have anything left to grow....Man that is very acidic..and can cause a whole host of bad things to happen..Your ph in soil should be at least 6/6.5.
good luck and keep an eye on the ph.at this stage you need very little ferts....introduce it gradually......
jarff

 

[toodles]

"What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)
I'm using a 50% pro-mix, 25% vermiculite and 25% perlite.
I am NOT using any additional supplementary nutrients like lime, epsom salts, etc."
[emphasis is mine, Toodles]

There is the root of your problem right there....no dolomite lime.
Lime is not "optional" in a mix like you made. Your pH is always going to be out of whack, and probably badly so. Nevermind the Calcium and Magnesium problems you'll have. No amount of flushing or topdressing with lime after the fact will help IMO. I suspect 99% of the others on here will disagree though.

Make a proper soil mix, including dolomite lime @2Tbls/gallon and repot them...right NOW. If you don't, I'd bet my life you will have problems forever....IMO of course

This is how I look at many of these soil related problems:

You put your plant in a shitty soil mix, expect a shitty result. It's that simple. Keep in mind it doesn't matter why the mix is shitty, just that if it is, your done before you begin.

This is not personal.

I know you didn't intend to make a bad mix, nobody does. But there are certain aspects of a soil mix that just arent optional. One of those is ph buffering. There are other ways to do it, but dolomite lime is the easiest by far.

Toodles

PS

Go read the Sticky in the Organics section on "Organics for Beginners". The first few pages have some very good info on soil making (soiless mix).

 

[toodles]

"What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
I haven't tested it yet but I was planing to when I watered this time around. I figured that with the pro-mix and distilled water my pH should be a non-issue but maybe I'm wrong...

Yes you are wrong.

I would not use distilled water unless you know your tapwater is so bad you can't use it. Distilled water has no minerals, nothing in it. Do you have Cal Mag if you need it?.... Assuming you have to continue using distilled water?

Again, I recommend you do some reading of the Stick Notes over in Organics...assuming you are going to grow that way (using PureBlend?)

However, I highly recommend you do something about making yourself a good healthy soiless mix first...and get your plants into it before the pH and nute issues kill them.

And again, IMO, you don't need all the vermiculite. Use wormcastings instead. If you have promix, make a mix like LC #2. Promix, castings, perlite plus dolomite lime and whatever dry amendments you prefer...There is info on dry amaendments as well in the Sticky Note.

Toodles

 

[reado]

First off, thanks Toodles & jarff for your replies.

jarff:
haha, naw, the pH of my soil isn't 3, the water + grozyme had the pH of 3. I just provided that value in case people needed to know the pH of what I was adding to my plant during a regular watering. The drainoff I got from the soil + water solution was around 6

Toodles:
A few things... first, I appreciate your input with regards to my soil/pH problem. Originally I was following along with Red_Greenery's rubbermaid grow. Red does use a 50% promix, 25% vermiculite and 25% perilite soil-less mix and also uses some organic dry components for nutrients. I mistakingly thought that the Lime was only a part of the nutrient formula and wasn't needed because I would be providing those from a store bought grow formula

Regarding my water... I was only using distilled because it was cheap-ish (next to tap that is..) and I thought was going to be the best thing I could use. My tap water is pretty good (minus the chlorine) so I'm definitely going to be using that from now on. Obviously, a good bubbling will be needed first to evaporate all the chlorine.

Here's what i've done to fix my problem(s)
- I've taken toodles advice and have made some LC #2 soil instead of my original mix

- I've repotted my plant and then re-watered it as well (I did that yesterday) again using a 1/4 dose of the grozyme in the water

Now, I've already purchased the botanicare PureBlend Pro Grow & Bloom and obviously, I can't return them since they've been slightly used...

My question is, now that I've got a healthier soil that actually can handle pH, can I continue to use the PureBlend stuff as my nutes until I'm finished or will I need anything else to provide missing elements not found in my grow medium?

Again, thanks to everyone for their help and I'll get some pics up once she's healthy.

Thanks!

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Pro Mix already has two types of lime in it, so your not that screwed. Next time, nix the vermiculite and just cut it with perlite.

Stay away from distilled water, it is actually so pure is absorbs carbon dioxide from the air and it drops the PH. You should switch to R/O or spring water and get Cal Mag Plus.

You definitely need to start monitoring your PH with something accurate. You can't be adding ferts with 3 PH and expect good results. Litmus strips designed for gardening are cheap, reliable and won't be tainted by organics like the drops.

You can do great with PBP, Cal-Mag, and no mixed in lime in Pro Mix as long as you monitor your PH. I know from experience.

 

[toodles]

Yep, you should be OK now. PBPpro is good stuff IMO.

I would disagree with Johnny maybe on the lime in the Promix. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes not from what I have seen on here from various people. Johhny has had no problems.

IMO, the deal is this: Adding lime is absolutely necessary for soils without it(there probably are exceptions, but they aren't for the average grower)....In the case of commercial mixes, If I KNEW for certain, the mix was limed well, then I might not add more. It in the case of Promix, it ius my opinion, they don't put enough in for my tatse. So I add it. It's insurance. I KNOW I won't have pH problems.

I think if you read that Sticky and talk to Burn1 or Suby, they'll tell you it won't hurt to add lime to your ProMix. I used one of the Promixes last fall and added the usual 2Tbls/gallon and had no problems. IMO....It is soooo important that you begin a grow with a good, ph balanced, nutricious soil. You'll find you will have far fewer problems for the duration of your grow.

If you did things right, you'll have fun just watering and feeding occasionally...watching them grow

Toodles

 

[Johnny Rotten]

No, they don't put enough in for our application. I'd totally agree there. If you add it you can get a way with not monitoring your PH, but your not screwed if you don't.

 

[reado]

Wow, good info guys

I guess we can agree, if you want to be cautious (which I am) then the lime is a good additive for the pro-mix

Anyway, I've added new pics to my profile:











This is my White Widow at day 26. In the forum's expert opinion, do things look like they are getting better?

I just want to make sure I'm on track.

As always, any input (good or bad) is appreciated

Thanks!

Oh, if anyone else might be able to help.. my plant is getting pretty tall for my grow tub... does everything look normal?

can't wait -

 

[stinkyattic]

I didn't see it before, but it looks like the newer growth is very healthy. You are in good hands here. Just remember, any time you run distilled or deionized water of any sort, or even rain water if you're one of 'those' people haha, you'll NEED to add some CalMag to bring the mineral content up to an acceptable range.

 

[reado]

... but if I'm running chlorine free tap water (that I *think* is good) I should be okay or would people recommend CalMag anyway?

 

[toodles]

If you got them in LC's mix with dolomite, I think you'll be OK with the tap water without the CalMag. I would water without the CalMag first and see how it goes. If you see some obvious Ca/Mg deficiency, then use the CalMag. CalMag is potent stuff. If you aren't careful with it, you can overdo it and end up with lockout problems....again...IMO.

Something you might want to do for the future is find out about your tapwater and what's in it. I know that mine has a "hardness" of ~17.5+-. I asked what that translated to in PPM, if it did. The County said multiply "hardness" by 5 for approximate PPM. He also said most of the hardness is from Ca, some Mg and Fe(Iron). The correlates with the PPM measurements I made with my meter. 75-90PPM.

I believe you need to know about your tap water if you're gonna use it.

That would be my advice

Toodles

 

[reado]

Fair enough,

After doing a little googling I found that my city has a water hardness of ~120-125ppm

So yeah, compared to 75-90PPM it sounds like i'm a bit high (no pun intended)

Should I just keep going or bother getting distilled + CalMag or spring water?

As always, thanks again Toodles!

 

[ubet28]

Fair enough,

After doing a little googling I found that my city has a water hardness of ~120-125ppm

So yeah, compared to 75-90PPM it sounds like i'm a bit high (no pun intended)

Should I just keep going or bother getting distilled + CalMag or spring water?

As always, thanks again Toodles![/QUOT

Using R/O water is the best from a control aspect but 125 is not hard at all you are fine until the water starts to break 200 then i would consider using R/O ore distilled water.

 

[stinkyattic]

^^^Exactly.
It's also not a bad idea to have that confirmed next time you go to the grow shop- a full-service shop should have a couple demo EC meters (and usually some freaking plants lol!) and will be able to do a quick check of your water EC if yu bring in a clean sample- a well-rinsed water bottle of tap water is fine.

 

[toodles]

You're fine if PPM is 120 or so. In fact, IMO...I would rather use that tap water than RO+ CalMag. Do bubble your water 24/7 with a bubbler from WalMart. Maybe my opinion only, but I'd stay away from CalMag unless you really need it. And I doubt you'll need it if you got the soil right

Good luck and keep us posted

Toodles

 

[reado]

Thanks so much everyone

Yeah, I've already got a air pump from an old fish tank so since my last watering I've just been using "bubbled" tap water.

Actually, I'm pretty glad you guys said that I don't need the CalMag just yet... I'm frickin' broke!

I'll post some more once things actually start to look different...

Thanks again

 

[TriIron]

I have a question about the statement about multiplying hardness by 5 for ppm. I just got my water report the other day from the water company, and it says that my hardness is 9-12 grains per gallon. Assuming the high end of 12, that would put my ppm at 60. My Hanna indicates my tap water is at 445.

I by the way have the same issues with my White Widow, about 3 weeks older.

 

[toodles]

I have a question about the statement about multiplying hardness by 5 for ppm. I just got my water report the other day from the water company, and it says that my hardness is 9-12 grains per gallon. Assuming the high end of 12, that would put my ppm at 60. My Hanna indicates my tap water is at 445.

I by the way have the same issues with my White Widow, about 3 weeks older.

hat was me about the "hardness" factor of x5. I'm only repeating what the local water people told me. I didn't ask him the units they measured hardness in. I only asked what it translated to in PPM and what the hardness was due to...mostly Calcium he said, some Mg and Iron(Fe)