tenthirty
Member
I looked up the kessil, does it seem to present itself as a single point of light? Can you see the what I like to call "the rainbow effect"?
Can you see all the different colored leds?
Building a Home Made LED
- Thread starter tenthirty
- Start date
I looked up the kessil, does it seem to present itself as a single point of light? Can you see the what I like to call "the rainbow effect"?
Can you see all the different colored leds?
tenthirty, I think I get where you are trying to go. I'm a sound engineer by profession and while I never thought on waveform interaction applied to light, I also think the more "natural blend" the light mix is, the better.
I'm about to order, after lots of thinking will keep the 3:2:6 (NW CW WW) ratio, partly due to "intuition", a feeling I think it has yet to "materialize" due to all the info I think my brain hasn't yet processed.
I did some calculations using the relative power graphs of each, and I think this ratio ends up blending nicely balanced taking into account the XP-G's are also less powerful scattered from 24 light sources vs the other whites.
A shame WW XM-L's are out of stock everywhere... (all XM-L is the most cost-effective solution) or maybe not! Time will tell.
Will try to elaborate on this particular ratio...
I'm about to order, after lots of thinking will keep the 3:2:6 (NW CW WW) ratio, partly due to "intuition", a feeling I think it has yet to "materialize" due to all the info I think my brain hasn't yet processed.
I did some calculations using the relative power graphs of each, and I think this ratio ends up blending nicely balanced taking into account the XP-G's are also less powerful scattered from 24 light sources vs the other whites.
A shame WW XM-L's are out of stock everywhere... (all XM-L is the most cost-effective solution) or maybe not! Time will tell.
Will try to elaborate on this particular ratio...
luvdemshrooms
Member
Ouch... cannot find them online. I should make up mi mind and order today, or lights won't be ready at time...
decisions decisions!!
You can find the cool white xp-g2's in stock at Digi-Key.
luvdemshrooms
Member
Warm White XML's in stock at Digi-Key. (Not a Digi-Key shill, just use a lot of LED's)
tenthirty
Member
Will have to look. Maybe HML V2 is going to come together sooner than I thought.
Ahhhh, the beauty of physics, it works everywhere. I'm glad to see that you already have a model built up in your head to work with.
XP-G2 are a step forward vs XP-G, but nothing to write home about, I'm trying to keep costs down and ordering from several places will make costs rise. Good to know Digikey carries them, star PCBs are also needed, thought prices would be better (glad about that as I already ordered and paid!)
The more I think about it, the more excited I am to see the results.
First of all I think when working with white LEDs we should forget about the previous approach of making a white light by "blending" actinic colors, i.e. "absolute" blue is for vegging, too much "absolute" far reds "burns", absolute green does nothing but increases lumens, etc... we are working with white light, and by changing CW NW WW ratios we are dealing with a mix of *relative* powers of white, not specific blue, green or red wavelengths.
I think the other reference in DIY are reef or planted tanks, but I think it has *nothing* to do with us, because water is between the light source and the plants, and as you know water acts like a prism decomposing white light wavelengths, and filtering some; so the goals here are 1) provide reef/plants with the light colors naturally available underwater and 2) make them look gorgeous. So here its absolutely logical to work with actinic colors. Not our case.
Right now my only concern is HML to canopy distance as my grow chamber is height restricted and I'm using 10W LEDs. However, LEDs seem to promote shorter internodal lengths so even if I have to put the HML 40cm over the canopy, the LED will make for less stretch also...
To check things for the blend I made up some (maybe overly) simplified approaches:
1.- blue domination = vegging; red domination = flowering/ripening. Goal: try to balance both.
2.- Power in lumens/irradiation: XP-G are 1/2 the XML's
3.- NW is 100% blue, 60% red | CW is 100% blue, 20% red | WW (XP-G) is 70% blue, 100% red (per relative spectral power graphs) . So doing some math for "relative spectral power watts":
Total NW = 3x10= 30 watts blue, 18watts red
Total CW = 2x10= 20 watts blue, 4 watts red
Total WW = 12 x 5 = 60W = 42 watts blue, 60 watts red
Totals: 92 watts blue/82 watts red.
So blue/red dominancy is almost balanced, only about ~10% more "theoretical" blue dominancy than red, but considering XP-Gs put 20% into far reds, the ones with most irradiance and "hot" power, I think everything is close to a nice balance, with the aid of XP-Gs being half the power of XML's, with the added "spread" of being into 12 5W "spots" (vs XML 5 10W spots) will help preventing "hot spots".
Time will tell
The more I think about it, the more excited I am to see the results.
First of all I think when working with white LEDs we should forget about the previous approach of making a white light by "blending" actinic colors, i.e. "absolute" blue is for vegging, too much "absolute" far reds "burns", absolute green does nothing but increases lumens, etc... we are working with white light, and by changing CW NW WW ratios we are dealing with a mix of *relative* powers of white, not specific blue, green or red wavelengths.
I think the other reference in DIY are reef or planted tanks, but I think it has *nothing* to do with us, because water is between the light source and the plants, and as you know water acts like a prism decomposing white light wavelengths, and filtering some; so the goals here are 1) provide reef/plants with the light colors naturally available underwater and 2) make them look gorgeous. So here its absolutely logical to work with actinic colors. Not our case.
Right now my only concern is HML to canopy distance as my grow chamber is height restricted and I'm using 10W LEDs. However, LEDs seem to promote shorter internodal lengths so even if I have to put the HML 40cm over the canopy, the LED will make for less stretch also...
To check things for the blend I made up some (maybe overly) simplified approaches:
1.- blue domination = vegging; red domination = flowering/ripening. Goal: try to balance both.
2.- Power in lumens/irradiation: XP-G are 1/2 the XML's
3.- NW is 100% blue, 60% red | CW is 100% blue, 20% red | WW (XP-G) is 70% blue, 100% red (per relative spectral power graphs) . So doing some math for "relative spectral power watts":
Total NW = 3x10= 30 watts blue, 18watts red
Total CW = 2x10= 20 watts blue, 4 watts red
Total WW = 12 x 5 = 60W = 42 watts blue, 60 watts red
Totals: 92 watts blue/82 watts red.
So blue/red dominancy is almost balanced, only about ~10% more "theoretical" blue dominancy than red, but considering XP-Gs put 20% into far reds, the ones with most irradiance and "hot" power, I think everything is close to a nice balance, with the aid of XP-Gs being half the power of XML's, with the added "spread" of being into 12 5W "spots" (vs XML 5 10W spots) will help preventing "hot spots".
Time will tell
As a 40+ year audio hobbyist using digital playback (for convenience, not absolute sound) I liken actinic led diodes to early digital- pre advanced D2A converters. Even the best D2As some 20 year later are no match, well maybe DSD, but unless the master is DSD too, there is a fall off in the conversion.
I see whites as superior analog with smooth sign waves that cover a wide sprectral range.
My 2 plants under leds MAY be showing how whites are superior. I say 'may' in that these are my own F1 cross, so some genetic differences are likely. The ufo 90 is RB, although I believe the reds might be a mix of a few nms.
The fixture on the left is a cheap vamity fixture, using low watt ww + day light leds, plus one daylight cfl. Both fixtures are angled slightly to blend the disparate spectrums. What I am seeing is considerably more and bigger secondary branching
Photos were taken on 9/30 at which point both were ~ soccer ball size; now both are basketball size. Both are now 5 weeks old. All leds are 1w diodes
View attachment 185477 View attachment 185478
View attachment 185479
I see whites as superior analog with smooth sign waves that cover a wide sprectral range.
My 2 plants under leds MAY be showing how whites are superior. I say 'may' in that these are my own F1 cross, so some genetic differences are likely. The ufo 90 is RB, although I believe the reds might be a mix of a few nms.
The fixture on the left is a cheap vamity fixture, using low watt ww + day light leds, plus one daylight cfl. Both fixtures are angled slightly to blend the disparate spectrums. What I am seeing is considerably more and bigger secondary branching
Photos were taken on 9/30 at which point both were ~ soccer ball size; now both are basketball size. Both are now 5 weeks old. All leds are 1w diodes
View attachment 185477 View attachment 185478
View attachment 185479
Great analogy!
Why "reconstruct" light in wthite when we can use white already...The "ladder effect" seem in low quality D2A converters would equate to those wave interferences tenthirty mentioned recently...
I've grown with PLLs (just veg) and with HPS, that was a while ago, can't wait to try LEDs but I think I'll see the difference.
Obviously yield will be another factor to consider, I'll be using like ~140Watts, let's see how many gpw's...
I am finding this concern about 660nm causing problems to be remarkably at odds with my experience. The below picture was taken at 20 days of 12/12, plants were vegged under my Volksled fixture and then swapped over to the Hybrid. While I like white light, I find it far more economical to provide it with PL-Ls.
Mine looked similar at that stage, but would never finish. Calyxes never fattened, neither did trics go crazy. Still wound up with excellent mmj, but a lot was left on the table, so to speak.
What percentage is 660? In my case I was using 1/8 = 12.5%
What percentage is 660? In my case I was using 1/8 = 12.5%
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Well, I've been pretty happy with the way that things have been finishing out, too. I have noticed that it takes longer for them to go amber, but Weezard did some interesting work a while back on that and came to the conclusion that the amber appears as a result of light damage, and leds aren't as prone to doing that as other light sources. (Hope I'm remembering that correctly). Regarding the percentage of 660, it would depend on how you tried to calculate it, but it's a bunch. On a wattage basis, it's close to 50/50 (220 watts of 2700k PL-L and @190-200 watts of 660 nm GD+).
luvdemshrooms
Member
Wouldn't using an assortment of WM, NW and CW take care of that as they are a full spectrum LED?
I haven't been able to find the thread that I was talking about, but it seems to me that his premise was based on the trichs being more susceptible to damage as they aged. If I recall correctly, he had some plants grown indoor under led's that weren't turning, and after a very short time outside (hours?) a large number of them went amber. No idea if it was a result of full spectrum light, intensity, or any other factors - personally, I would lean toward intensity. If it were simply due to the full spectrum being present, I would expect that my PL-Ls would have had a similar impact to a combination of white leds.
tenthirty
Member
luvdemshrooms
Member
I've been, and many others.
Reading the threads here inspired me to try making my own light. While I'm still in the mid-stage of construction, I used all XML's. 4 CW, 4 WW and 4 NW. I bought a 10 X 10 heat sink and set the LED's in a hex pattern. I currently have them running at 1.5A while doing thermal measurements. After 24hrs, passively cooled, the LED's have only hit 56c. I intend to crank it up to 2A and see how the thermals go.
I build LED lights for a living, but this is my first grow light (power bill scared me).
Is there something in the thread you linked to that I missed?
Reading the threads here inspired me to try making my own light. While I'm still in the mid-stage of construction, I used all XML's. 4 CW, 4 WW and 4 NW. I bought a 10 X 10 heat sink and set the LED's in a hex pattern. I currently have them running at 1.5A while doing thermal measurements. After 24hrs, passively cooled, the LED's have only hit 56c. I intend to crank it up to 2A and see how the thermals go.
I build LED lights for a living, but this is my first grow light (power bill scared me).
Is there something in the thread you linked to that I missed?
luvdemshrooms
Member
Non-edit edit: The full size light will be 3ft long with 3 groups of 12 XML's. The sample is a single unit to test on a single plant.
Howzit guys? Been lurking.
Howzit guys? Been lurking.
As the capitate glands age and ripen, they turn cloudy.
The UV b and c that used to sail right through them now contributes to their rapid darkening.
The IR is also occluded and so, heats the glands, which also hastens their degradation.
LEDs produce 0 UV and almost 0 radiated IR.
I used them to confirm my theories on UV and gland ripening.
As a result of my results I now have a UV filtering roof on my greenhouse.
The thread was "Calling out to Weezard for LED advice"
By "Crunchy pants" aka "Dreaded Hermie"
Googles right up.
Howzit guys? Been lurking.
As the capitate glands age and ripen, they turn cloudy.
The UV b and c that used to sail right through them now contributes to their rapid darkening.
The IR is also occluded and so, heats the glands, which also hastens their degradation.
LEDs produce 0 UV and almost 0 radiated IR.
I used them to confirm my theories on UV and gland ripening.
As a result of my results I now have a UV filtering roof on my greenhouse.
The thread was "Calling out to Weezard for LED advice"
By "Crunchy pants" aka "Dreaded Hermie"
Googles right up.
As the capitate glands age and ripen, they turn cloudy.
The UV b and c that used to sail right through them now contributes to their rapid darkening.
The IR is also occluded and so, heats the glands, which also hastens their degradation.
LEDs produce 0 UV and almost 0 radiated IR.
I used them to confirm my theories on UV and gland ripening.
As a result of my results I now have a UV filtering roof on my greenhouse.
The thread was "Calling out to Weezard for LED advice"
By "Crunchy pants" aka "Dreaded Hermie"
Googles right up.
AHA, the light source I had the problem with is HO T5, not leds
That said, Stardustsailor on RIU (Astir...) a diy led man with commercial aspirations, says 660 is a no-no
