Building a Home Made LED

[rives]

i think this is exactly the problem i m having; edited my post to reflect that plumber's paste solder is no good for this

Sorry to hear about your troubles - that shit makes fuses out of conductors!

 

[repuk]

After lowering the HML gradually from 50cm to 30 cm, this happened between three days @30cm (12"):

Nov 2nd:

Nov 5th:

The blumats fed 4 Litres in those 3 days.

I'd say they're liking the white LEDs so far... Not too much stretching, but compare leaf density and size, so that would mean enough blue in the mix I'd guess

For those skilled with scrog: for training I put the highest branches below the screen after taking the pics. Is that enough?

 

[PetFlora]

Aha, let the fun begin!

Is 'linking' anything like 'liking'?

I'd say they're linking the white LEDs so far

 

[repuk]

Heheh, meant liking of course!

Another thing I'm recapping now: I noticed an special quality to the leaves: they're very thin and flexible compared to what I grew with the HPS or even the PLLs.

I have fed 1.8EC till now, wondering if rasing the EC looking at their somewhat pale green...

 

[tenthirty]

Heheh, meant liking of course!

Another thing I'm recapping now: I noticed an special quality to the leaves: they're very thin and flexible compared to what I grew with the HPS or even the PLLs.

I have fed 1.8EC till now, windwrung if rasing looking at their somewhat pale green...

Are they smooth??? This was the first thing that I noticed when starting with the HML.

What I want to know is, what does that mean????
SDS is the plant biologist.....
Let's see what he has to say.

I'll go post this on his thread.

 

[vukman]

I would think smooth leaves are a good thing.......no?? Not an expert here by no means or stretch of the imagination but soft smooth supple leaves....ohhh!!!!!!!! I'm getting wood here!! LMAO...

 

[tenthirty]

I'm with ya man.
Soft smooth supple, and last but not least moist!!

 

[repuk]

Are they smooth??? This was the first thing that I noticed when starting with the HML.

Yes, very smooth.

I would think smooth leaves are a good thing.......no?? Not an expert here by no means or stretch of the imagination but soft smooth supple leaves....ohhh!!!!!!!! I'm getting wood here!! LMAO...

hahahahah

yep, that's the description!

Another observation: all the girls had already preflowers. Checked everything and the only thing that could have induced that is either age (they're 7 weeks old) and the change of lights from PLL to the HML?

 

[hempfield]

Showing pre-flowers it's a sign of maturity of the plant, like she says it's ready to procreate

I had a mom plant that constantly trow individual flowers for more than 5-6 months but she gave me only good clones (but I was forced to kill her after been away from her for 3-4 weeks, when she transformed herself into a huge leggy monster).

It's posible that the change of the spectrum to mislead her a little, but as long the pre-flowers remain pre-flowers and you don't see any other buds forming it's ok. But as you know, the flowering is almost always preceded by the stretch and your girls does not seems to elongate for the moment.

 

[tenthirty]

Ok, here is the reply from SDS, all good!!

Well..
That is quite " expected " with low/mid irradiances of white light generally.....
....
Just a summary (more details as the "experiment" will proceed...):

Plants react in a "opposite" kinda of way in light characteristics....
If i.e there is moderate power light at low reds (620nm -640 nm ) and lower at deep reds ( 640-680)nm ,plants
change their "Photosynthetic Scheme" .Meaning that they will biosynthesise more ChA (which has peak absorbance around 660-665 nm ) ,as they
will try to gather as much as possible light at that region (low powers ).
ChA being main P.pigment of PS I. In chloroplasts, the photosystems are spatially separated: PSII and its
antenna pigments are located primarily in the stacked thylakoid membranes (grana), whereas PSI is mainly
located in the nonstacked stroma lamellae protruding into the chloroplast stroma from the grana lamellae.

So,in fact will have higher ratio of PSI to PSII (3:1 compared to 2:1), or/and have more antenna chlorophyll in PSII. These
adaptations “enhance light absorption and energy transfer” to make better use of the relatively more sparse deep red light.

Grana is stacked ,meaning ChB is "packed " denser than ChA... More "thick " light harvesting sites...
Not easy to miss photons.....( Which are fewer in low irradiances ,and specially if not much deep reds there... )
For harvesting the deep reds ,more ChA is produced....

These "actions " are a small part of " Shade Adaptance"...
As also , thin (regarding thickness) and wider leaves ,are....
Thin so that they will not absorb most of light...Let the lower leaves have their "share",also...

Of 100% incident solar energy arriving at the leaf , 60% is non-PAR photons, 8% is reflected or
transmitted, 8% is dissipated as heat, 19% is consumed in metabolism, and the remaining 5% of incident
energy is utilized for the production of CHO. However, the efficiency of utilization of this photon
energy may be much lower,as 85-90% of PAR incident on the leaf is absorbed,
strongest in blue(400-499 nm ) and red (600-699 nm )and lowest in green(500-599 nm ).


Here are general properties and tendencies of shade leaves compared to sun leaves:
• have more total chlorophyll per reaction center
• tend to be thinner, with thinner palisades
• have less rubisco and less xanthophyll (which is photoprotective)
• have higher ratio of PSI to PSII (3:1 compared to 2:1),and/or have more antenna chlorophyll in PSII. These
adaptations “enhance light absorption and energy transfer” to make better use of the relatively sparse deep red & more
abundant far red light.
• have lower rates of respiration (“dark respiration”) and lower Light Compensation Point.
• have lower maximum PS rates (saturation) that sun plants.
(But usually are much more than sun leaves ,while at same time having bigger P/S active surface area per leaf .)

Bright Light Adaptations
Sun-exposed plant leaves tend to grow thicker than shaded leaves of the same plant.
Desert plants, to prevent harm by excess light (and dessication), develop various defense including hairs, salt glands,
epicuticular wax, all of which increase reflection of light from the leaf surface and reduce absorption of
light by up to 40%. Some plants utilize paraheliotropic tracking to turn away from direct sun and thereby
reduce leaf exposure to light.

We will see later how plants "sense " Strong -bright light....
Using a particular range of wavelengths...The "rarest" ones...


Thinner leaves=more efficient????? Less biomass to support????

Well..Thinner leaves are also many in numbers and quite large in overall size...
So they store more mobile elements & energy in the form of starches and sugars...
Plus that they possess lower respiration rates (lower catabolism ) and low compesation points (higher anabolism )....
And yes....
Later on during reproductive stage ,all these-along with some "other"- , usually mean ,really massive flowering...

 

[tenthirty]

Guess what today was.




No pics this time, maybe I'll bull some stalks out of the drier,
but today was a very busy day.

Observations coming!!! All good.

 

[vukman]

Guess what today was.

View attachment 191461
View attachment 191462

No pics this time, maybe I'll bull some stalks out of the drier,
but today was a very busy day.

Observations coming!!! All good.

OOOHHHHHHHH.. I see a few ambers in there...

busy busy busy....let us know how it all turns out when you're not so consumed with the task at hand..

 

[tenthirty]

My Ikea drying rack broke it's little hangar and I found it on the floor today.
Hmmmm.

So I took the opportunity to snap a couple of pics of a random bud for your viewing pleasure.


I know about the trim job.(I hate trimming!)

The whole thing pretty much turned out as budsicles.
The Trim Pro didn't even come out.
Without going into detail, the wet yield has go up about 60% from before the implementation of the HML.
This harvest was using V1 HML and Pro-Grow luminaires, so 1/3 of the table was HML.
As before, final 30 days were done under HPS.

Epiphany!

Per. SDS.
It seems that less is really more, you know the thin leaves thing.
Well in terms that I can understand, what would you rather have,
A lawn mower engine,
or a 32 valve V8?
I'm talking design here, which produces power more efficiently?

But we aren't building an engine, the engine builds itself.
By giving the plant a full diet of relatively low power light,
it builds itself in a more efficient form, requiring less light and nutrients to achieve the same if not better results within a given range.
I'm running 25w sq ft of HML my friends and getting an average of almost 10g a plant sog, and I'm no grower!
In my book, 15g a plant average, is absolute tops for what I am doing.
There were some plants almost 70g wet, that would be about 17g dry.

The question becomes at this point, What to do about replacing the 600w HPS that is used for the final 30 days??????

From what I have gathered, there are 3 ways I could go.

1) I have the ballast for a 315w Phillips Agro bulb, I could throw that together for cheap, I think.
It's pretty much a PAR curve and would work, probably pretty well.
As far as I can tell, I would be the guinea pig on this.

2) Build a led luminaire that is shifted more red, WW and 630-640's.
(I really don't like using discrete colored leds, it makes spikes in the wave and the angular incidence of the different sources of light concern me even more.)
Think about it, in nature the light comes from the same direction at any given point in time.
What if the antenna pigments had to change orientation to collect blue vs red light.
4 or 5 degrees could be a whole lot.
It seems to me the system was evolved to track the sun.
Some plants the leaves or the whole plant moves, the natural progression should be for the antenna pigments to move. (At this time man has it to a point that the antenna's beam can be controlled electronically at least with RF and microwave.)

By using broad band leds (read white) the antenna pigments don't have to move. (Think Kobe beef....Yum!) The light is homogeneous.
The antenna pigments can stay focused at one temporal location.

So to build a set of fixtures to meet my goal is not going to be easy.

3) Stay with the HPS. (I do need the heat this time of year.)
In my heart of hearts, I know this thing has got to go.

If my calculations are correct, ultimately a 1000 watts of HPS
will be replaced with roughly 600 watts of led and.........
getting better results than HPS alone.

Brought to you by Achems razor and the fattie I just smoked.

 

[vukman]

My Ikea drying rack broke it's little hangar and I found it on the floor today.
Hmmmm.

So I took the opportunity to snap a couple of pics of a random bud for your viewing pleasure.
View attachment 191631 View attachment 191632

I know about the trim job.(I hate trimming!)

The whole thing pretty much turned out as budsicles.
The Trim Pro didn't even come out.
Without going into detail, the wet yield has go up about 60% from before the implementation of the HML.
This harvest was using V1 HML and Pro-Grow luminaires, so 1/3 of the table was HML.
As before, final 30 days were done under HPS.

Epiphany!

Per. SDS.
It seems that less is really more, you know the thin leaves thing.
Well in terms that I can understand, what would you rather have,
A lawn mower engine,
or a 32 valve V8?
I'm talking design here, which produces power more efficiently?

But we aren't building an engine, the engine builds itself.
By giving the plant a full diet of relatively low power light,
it builds itself in a more efficient form, requiring less light and nutrients to achieve the same if not better results within a given range.
I'm running 25w sq ft of HML my friends and getting an average of almost 10g a plant sog, and I'm no grower!
In my book, 15g a plant average, is absolute tops for what I am doing.
There were some plants almost 70g wet, that would be about 17g dry.

The question becomes at this point, What to do about replacing the 600w HPS that is used for the final 30 days??????

From what I have gathered, there are 3 ways I could go.

1) I have the ballast for a 315w Phillips Agro bulb, I could throw that together for cheap, I think.
It's pretty much a PAR curve and would work, probably pretty well.
As far as I can tell, I would be the guinea pig on this.

2) Build a led luminaire that is shifted more red, WW and 630-640's.
(I really don't like using discrete colored leds, it makes spikes in the wave and the angular incidence of the different sources of light concern me even more.)
Think about it, in nature the light comes from the same direction at any given point in time.
What if the antenna pigments had to change orientation to collect blue vs red light.
4 or 5 degrees could be a whole lot.
It seems to me the system was evolved to track the sun.
Some plants the leaves or the whole plant moves, the natural progression should be for the antenna pigments to move. (At this time man has it to a point that the antenna's beam can be controlled electronically at least with RF and microwave.)

By using broad band leds (read white) the antenna pigments don't have to move. (Think Kobe beef....Yum!) The light is homogeneous.
The antenna pigments can stay focused at one temporal location.

So to build a set of fixtures to meet my goal is not going to be easy.

3) Stay with the HPS. (I do need the heat this time of year.)
In my heart of hearts, I know this thing has got to go.

If my calculations are correct, ultimately a 1000 watts of HPS
will be replaced with roughly 600 watts of led and.........
getting better results than HPS alone.

Brought to you by Achems razor and the fattie I just smoked.

There is just one thing I have to ask about this and that is that why when we are talking about LED's, then less is more..etc..etc. even if the LEDs are producing white light but yet the school of thought and practice has been to blast and much HID light onto the plants as possible and watch them produce mucho mega buds!

Is there something I am missing or misunderstanding here? Maybe it's just late and I need the sleep

No matter what, when my light is working.........again ..that baby is going into my 3x5x7 tent and let's see then what's what..MUHAHAHHAAH...opp..sorry,,, the mad scientist took over again..

Good Luck

 

[PetFlora]

My Ikea drying rack broke it's little hangar and I found it on the floor today.
Hmmmm.

So I took the opportunity to snap a couple of pics of a random bud for your viewing pleasure.
View attachment 191631 View attachment 191632

I know about the trim job.(I hate trimming!)

The whole thing pretty much turned out as budsicles.
The Trim Pro didn't even come out.
Without going into detail, the wet yield has go up about 60% from before the implementation of the HML.
This harvest was using V1 HML and Pro-Grow luminaires, so 1/3 of the table was HML.
As before, final 30 days were done under HPS.

Epiphany!

Per. SDS.
It seems that less is really more, you know the thin leaves thing.
Well in terms that I can understand, what would you rather have,
A lawn mower engine,
or a 32 valve V8?
I'm talking design here, which produces power more efficiently?

But we aren't building an engine, the engine builds itself.
By giving the plant a full diet of relatively low power light,
it builds itself in a more efficient form, requiring less light and nutrients to achieve the same if not better results within a given range.
I'm running 25w sq ft of HML my friends and getting an average of almost 10g a plant sog, and I'm no grower!
In my book, 15g a plant average, is absolute tops for what I am doing.
There were some plants almost 70g wet, that would be about 17g dry.

The question becomes at this point, What to do about replacing the 600w HPS that is used for the final 30 days??????

From what I have gathered, there are 3 ways I could go.

1) I have the ballast for a 315w Phillips Agro bulb, I could throw that together for cheap, I think.
It's pretty much a PAR curve and would work, probably pretty well.
As far as I can tell, I would be the guinea pig on this.

2) Build a led luminaire that is shifted more red, WW and 630-640's.
(I really don't like using discrete colored leds, it makes spikes in the wave and the angular incidence of the different sources of light concern me even more.)
Think about it, in nature the light comes from the same direction at any given point in time.
What if the antenna pigments had to change orientation to collect blue vs red light.
4 or 5 degrees could be a whole lot.
It seems to me the system was evolved to track the sun.
Some plants the leaves or the whole plant moves, the natural progression should be for the antenna pigments to move. (At this time man has it to a point that the antenna's beam can be controlled electronically at least with RF and microwave.)

By using broad band leds (read white) the antenna pigments don't have to move. (Think Kobe beef....Yum!) The light is homogeneous.
The antenna pigments can stay focused at one temporal location.

So to build a set of fixtures to meet my goal is not going to be easy.

3) Stay with the HPS. (I do need the heat this time of year.)
In my heart of hearts, I know this thing has got to go.

If my calculations are correct, ultimately a 1000 watts of HPS
will be replaced with roughly 600 watts of led and.........
getting better results than HPS alone.

Brought to you by Achems razor and the fattie I just smoked.

Let me address #2: Multiple small panels (@ ~ 25w)

The following are ideas with some proven success...

Early Veg ~ 6500 on top should be sufficient (CW)
Early Clone ~ 5000 on top (CW + WW- or NW)

Mid Veg 5000 on top 3000 on the sides ~ 30* angle, aiming down
Flower 3000-5000 on top & sides

The ability to swap spectrums as needed is one reason why I plan to use multiple small vanity fixtures + low watt (3-5w) screw bulbs where diodes are 1w each. The other reason is, it is super simple, and low watt bulbs are cheap from www.chinabuyes.com

Since I own it, I am using a ufo 90 RB: 9:1 on top and supplementing with a vanity ~ 10" below- where ufo penetration stops. I haven't yet added more vanitys, so I rotate the tote 180*s each day

Total of ~ 80w leds + reptile bulbs during flower cycle.

Photos (she's ~ 3ft tall. Double click on images for max size
View attachment 191679 View attachment 191680

 

[tenthirty]

Interesting study. The chart on page 4 is of most benefit.
http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/def...Agro 315W Spectral Characterization Study.pdf

 

[xmobotx]

decided to try some through hole leds from superbrightleds

and ~ on;


layout for the strip of 9; ww, aqua, "super" white," ww, "s"w, ww, sw, aqua, ww {4 warm, 3 super, 2 aqua}

strip of 4; 2 405n UV + 2 660n red

spectrums; minus the 405n UV {a spike in the 405 range}

 

[PetFlora]

Vuk, not sure you got your 'less is more' question answered. I think it is coming clear now that SDS is talking about Sun Adapted v Shade Adapted plants. Higher wattage is likely to be too much, which forces the plant to protect itself with large, thick shade leaves. Lower wattage not only does the opposite, but, it allows the lights (multiple small panels) to be much closer to the plant, where they provide broader and deeper coverage to the bud sites below the canopy.

 

[vukman]

Vuk, not sure you got your 'less is more' question answered. I think it is coming clear now that SDS is talking about Sun Adapted v Shade Adapted plants. Higher wattage is likely to be too much, which forces the plant to protect itself with large, thick shade leaves. Lower wattage not only does the opposite, but, it allows the lights (multiple small panels) to be much closer to the plant, where they provide broader and deeper coverage to the bud sites below the canopy.

Hiya PetFlora....I'm just a big fat lurker over there...heheh...thank you all the same for caring my friend and brother...

 

[repuk]

Xmobotx that's gonna need lots of work and tender, keep posting pics!

Regarding canopy distance w/ white leds, until this morning disaster, I have found the canopy to be at 6" sometimes and never noticed any sign of bleaching, guess it requires several days to show?