Buds not putting on weight

[PaulieWaulie]

Paulie; Looking at your plants in veg; Did you trim these like a lot man? If so, then I agree with whomever suggested not doing that so much. The leaves are what contribute energy to the flowers. Having said that, I think you are fine.

I do trim the lowers quite a bit as you and others have mentioned. I have one plant per sq foot and try to do sog and have an even canopy.
So my goal is a couple of main branches per plant, all of which is on the top foot of growth which is closest to the light, and really no light makes it below this canopy. I have been under the impression that root mass = yield. so if I veg a plant into a bush, and then trim 50% to 70% of that lower growth, then all those roots and resources will go to that top 50%-30% of the plant closest to the lights.

I don't want larf, and have been removing heavily once before flip, so that all that energy in stretch doesn't go to lower stuff that gets removed anyway, and then I remove again after stretch, any buds that arent in the top 1 foot. I really only want dense nugs and less leaves is less humidity and more airflow which is important as I had PM and am pm free after one year of hell, so want to keep it that way.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

To me it looks like soil is maybe too rich with nutes and they suffocate in them,
cant absorb them properly so there is a lock... its not best phase of growth
to flush while if you add more nutes problem will just deepen in negative side..


flower looks like there is too much of N and it blocks Mg..,
thats why it also shows Mg problems..

flushing on a half of flowering can made problems and plant can choose to rid
of leafes that will negative affect further flowering..

maybe to give them just plain water and a bit Mg,Ca,S... maybe they fill in and
maybe problem will be solved,hard to say since i dont have experience with
your soil mix.. also good thing will be to try to flush one pot just for experiment
and then measure this runoff with PH/EC meter so you will know is it overload
or not..

I transplanted a bunch of clones yesterday and for each strain I did one plant in full strength mix, one in 50% strength, and in pro mix that gets pure blend pro bottled nutrients only. I think this side by side will clear up a lot of my questions and problems.

Checking run off ppm in organics is hard, as its in the thousands. Same with flushing, I think?

 

[PaulieWaulie]

No woo-woo needed.

Drop a couple worms in there for a few days and report back.

You're living off of organic matter and castings but none of your macro amendments are being mineralized. You need microorganisms to start breaking everything down. I bet all your values are totally in range if only they were available. Organics can take quite a long time to mineralize unless you force the issue.

And I think you could stand to leave more branches on there. Throughout all of veg into florescence, it's been sending a certain amount of protein and carbs and lipids into storage and sinks that are later accessed in mature processes and filling. That's your lime green on the tops at this week in the process. When you flipped into flower, your concentration of nitrogen lowered and spread out dramatically- and now there's no well to draw from because you're only feeding water.

Your buds look sticky as hell, no doubt. And if in a few weeks you start to see some filling out as gypsum or some potassium source breaks down from whatever previous harvest- I'll walk back my theory.

Mineralize + green mass. Even if the wimpier branches/leaves don't work out great- they're still contributing greatly to metabolism.

check my response to microbeman, as it was directed at your comments as well.


You know what I think it might be as well that I had never considered before, but I see now it has happened before and seems to be a common denominator. Because again, this isn't happening with all my plants, so that means maybe its not the soil, maybe its not ph/nutrients related, maybe not even trimming related but this...

Often I veg a plant and then something goes wrong and plant grows tall and lanky or goes through a rough patch and gets deficiencies, and I run a perpetual so in the past I have always been under pressure to keep room running at full occupancy. So after unhealthy or lanky growth gets cut back I fix the issue and reveg it quickly for 1-2 weeks and think ok I got a couple branches that i will stretch nicely since plant is doing good and I will end up with a couple nice main colas. And then stretch does will put they never pack on and buds are lots, but all small and not dense. And I thought that this never seems to happen when I run from seed and just clones. The difference being that I always veg for a total of 8 weeks until they show sex and then flower. I think I thought this was all ok because hydro guys do 0 VEG, and they do great. So I thought, trim back, veg 1-2 weeks and flower out and I should be fine. But maybe I should have at least 4 consecutive weeks of super healthy strong luscious vegetative growth prior to flipping .

Because like I said, this is also happening with some plants in pro mix with pbp now and in the past. And I am getting some plants in organic soil right now that are doing better.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

My one plant is on day 42 and looked to be fading already for almost the last week just getting lighter all around. So I top dressed with 4 cups of EWC ( fresh from the bin, not all fully broken down, so more like fresh compost with some worms though still)

Will see if I can tell a difference in coming weeks

 

[PaulieWaulie]

Have you sent in a soil sample (field soil test with base saturation) to see what's happening in your soil? If you haven't, it would a be a good place to start, slow nickle has a big thread that discusses soil test and some strategies.

yes I have checked out slow nickles thread!

I have 32 plants in 3G containers that will be harvested in the next month, I will combine all that soil and mix it up to a nice even blend, (its a mix of various different batches that I have made, so each pot is not 100% the same).

Then I will send in a sample of that, and see what conclusions I can draw from that report and decide how to amend it for my next run.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

And for everyone else that commented, your support is much appreciated. Organics is scary because with bottled nutrients you can actually check ph and ppm, and then adjust nutrients going in, or possibly flush and start over. But with organics you cant measure ppm, and you cant flush, and you need diagnose what is going on in the soil and then give proper amendment and be patient that it takes a few weeks to become available, and that you have the micro life that can do that for you. So when something goes wrong, not only do you doubt your mix as far as micro life/nutrients/ph but everything else:

your lights, your temps, airflow, your strain, overtrimming /lolipopping (even thought maybe that its that I water from my resevoir that sits for up to a week after filling, and wasn't aerating it- doing that now, have airpumps in there 24/7)

So thanks to everyone, I have had some very difficult frustrating times with this hobby that far outweigh the good moments, and sometimes I wonder, why do I do this to myself.

 

[BurnOne]

Why are you using gypsum?
Burn1

 

[PaulieWaulie]

Why are you using gypsum?
Burn1

Burn1, good to see you here, your thread was my introduction into organics. Ive put hundreds if not thousands of hours into reading since then, and really am trying to kis. ;/

gypsum for a Calcium source that doesnt raise ph like dolomite lime. I still have a little bit of dolomite for magnesium source.

 

[BurnOne]

Gypsum lowers pH.
Try some calcitic lime instead.
Burn1

 

[green-genes77]

Your mix does look rather rich and, if I'm understanding correctly, you use the same one throughout the plant's life? At the same time there are a lot of medium-slow and slow release elements in there, especially the gypsum and the bone meals. Your high-P inputs might be becoming available too early and petering out too early, while your Ca is remaining largely untapped due to the complex nature of the Ca-rich materials you are using.

Ca++ is absolutely essential for building fat buds in organic systems, and it needs to be available all the time but especially in that week 4, 5, 6 period. The double positive charge helps Calcium to enhance the uptake of other molecules and is also really important in the cell wall as calcium pectate. You'll get bigger buds that retain more of their weight after harvest as a result.

I understand the desire to do the "just add water" super soil approach, but if you added a soluble calcium source to your flowering regimen I have a hunch you'd see the results you were looking for.

Here is what I would do, bearing in mind that your plants look pretty nice as is:

Slurry test every plant. My uneducated speculation is that you'll find your soil pH is low and your ppm high. A strong watering to 20% runoff with pH adjusted liquid bone meal will put them in the right direction and also supply needed P.

If the slurry tests are okay apply some available Ca anyway and see what happens!

 

[calisun]

Gypsum will not affect your soil pH. Gypsum provides calcium and sulfur witch will help with the terpenes among other things

 

[BurnOne]

Gypsum will not affect your soil pH. Gypsum provides calcium and sulfur witch will help with the terpenes among other things

We use gypsum and sulfur to lower pH in lawns. Blueberry and raspberry growers use it for the same thing.
Burn1

 

[ozzieAI]

hey paulie...

thats what i found with the BBCC...it didn't produce weight like other FMS strains...i got 2oz/plant when i usually get a minimum of 4oz from PA and 5oz for ICE...

BBCC is however a great product and a top smoke/vape...

 

[calisun]

We use gypsum and sulfur to lower pH in lawns. Blueberry and raspberry growers use it for the same thing.
Burn1

I should of said has very little effect on well drained soil pH.

I think lawns, Blueberry and rasberrys like the extra Ca and S they get from the gypsum. Along with being acid loving plants
I haven't noticed a pH change in the the pot I amend.

I've read a few studies about this online. I'll try to post one later.

 

[Smith111]

The Ca in gypsum wants to raise the ph, but the sulfer keeps it down. With good microbiology gypsum should maintain a ph in the 6 range.

 

[PaulieWaulie]

So 2 weeks later and I can say the problem has persisted. I realize now that it wasn't just happening to my soil mix plants, but also to plants in pro mix. So its not organics.

The common denominator in all these cases was that I was vegging, and ran into problems schedule wise or had bad unhealthy growth, or just lanky as I overvegged with low light. Then when I was ready to bloom, I fixed the issues, cut back growth, and did a quick 2 week veg. I thought that all that built up rootmass would go into those few small branches and turn into a few big main colas. But what always happened, is that they had a big stretch and many branches with many little tops. I think this whole cutting back and quick reveg thing stresses them more than I had thought, and that rootmass doeesn't matter as much as I had thought in this case. I am focusing on having 4-6 weeks of healthy lush vigurous growth that is uninterrupted leading up to flip, with minimal removal of vegetative matter. maybe at week 3 is when I will lollipop. As well I will focus on having 4 main colas, instead of what seems like 20 tops which are being supported by a plant that wasn't that healthy and had recent stress.

I have other plants in bloom that are bulking up normally. I hope this problem is in the past for me. months of veg and then months of bloom, to end with this is really heartbreaking.

Sad times.

Here is the BBCH thread. I posted some recent pictures, a few pics of one cola that actually bulked up properly. But you can see in other what im talking about. And when you squeeze what might loook nice, there is no density to it. you press and it goes flat in your fingers, the fingers, they touch each other. There is not much between.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=353833&page=4

 

[Mengsk]

If you are mostly organic and having trouble toward the end try maxsea bloom or something. It's arguably better to get a fatter harvest with that once you have the time and energy invested at least or while getting organics figured out compared to all salts or drain to waste. You can still get a large bubbler or tea brewer to mix all the guano compost fungi whatever and let it cook for 1-2 days. Try for light saturation cooler lights help with that.