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Bubble Puppy
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Breeding with "feminized" genetics?
- Thread starter spicecowboy
- Start date
how so? can you explan to me how the genetics are being "twisted round" and "falsely manipulated" ?DocLeaf said:
I have studied genetics at university level, although I am hardly an expert (more of a biotech student, but I did get high grades in genetics, heh). It just does not make sense to me how the genetics are being "twisted round" and "falsely manipulated". I would love it if someone could explain to me scientifically how they imagine the genetic damage is occurring. without a mechanistic explanation, I just cant understand how this would be the case.
If a female from fem seeds is pollinated by a normal male, how is this genetically detrimental to the progeny as opposed to a non fem mother being used?
What is "inherent" about fem seed lines which makes them produce "weaker lines" ?
Ez
fem warlock beans (gasp)
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I couldnt help but post my 2 cents worth on the subject, interesting thread thusfar.
Anyways , I dont believe there is any genetic damage done as ezra stated. It is a sevear form of inbreeding, being that an s1 of an f1 will produce similar results in narrowing the hybrid range as going to f3-f4 with traditional m/f breeding. Having said that there could be traits that pass predominately from the male side that get left out, but i have yet to see hard evidence of this even though my experiences tell me it may be true. Also certain recombinations may not occur as will in traditional m/f breeding, but again this is just speculation on by behalf.
All in all i think the major doneside to selfing is the loss of control somewhat. I think even in most m/f breeding ppl tend to select to hard, to much selective pressure on the line. Add to that the fact that u can x2 or even x3 that pressure when selfing, and u reach bottlenecks in the genetics real quick, hence the reason u dont see much in the way of s4's or s3's or even s2's.
Selfing does however have many pluses though and can be used very effectively imho with short term breeding goals in mind( by breeders or growers wanting to make seeds), just not a great tool in the long term breeding program. The whole mumbo jumbo evil fem seeds rant is a crock o crappola though, just ppl that bought selfed beans that came of easily hermied stock seem to blame the whole selfing process, not the person that selected the plant to self that was loaded with herm genetics ( i.e dont self anything that will go herm under any enviromental condition and use those that only herms under a silver treatment be it sts or coloidal)
Much respect
Moonunit
Anyways , I dont believe there is any genetic damage done as ezra stated. It is a sevear form of inbreeding, being that an s1 of an f1 will produce similar results in narrowing the hybrid range as going to f3-f4 with traditional m/f breeding. Having said that there could be traits that pass predominately from the male side that get left out, but i have yet to see hard evidence of this even though my experiences tell me it may be true. Also certain recombinations may not occur as will in traditional m/f breeding, but again this is just speculation on by behalf.
All in all i think the major doneside to selfing is the loss of control somewhat. I think even in most m/f breeding ppl tend to select to hard, to much selective pressure on the line. Add to that the fact that u can x2 or even x3 that pressure when selfing, and u reach bottlenecks in the genetics real quick, hence the reason u dont see much in the way of s4's or s3's or even s2's.
Selfing does however have many pluses though and can be used very effectively imho with short term breeding goals in mind( by breeders or growers wanting to make seeds), just not a great tool in the long term breeding program. The whole mumbo jumbo evil fem seeds rant is a crock o crappola though, just ppl that bought selfed beans that came of easily hermied stock seem to blame the whole selfing process, not the person that selected the plant to self that was loaded with herm genetics ( i.e dont self anything that will go herm under any enviromental condition and use those that only herms under a silver treatment be it sts or coloidal)
Much respect
Moonunit
JWP
Active member
- ezra - : i cant speak for DocLeaf but i think he was just meaning that these plants are not ideal to use. Maybe he just lacked the vocabulary to express his thoughts and just jotted down his thoughts as best he could.
like me my vocabulary isnt the best. prease excuse my poor engrish
the female from fem seeds may actually be not much different than the non fem mother. who is to say the non fem mother isnt intersexed anyway? just because it isnt expressed at the time of selection doesnt mean that the intersex trait wont be passed down and then expressed in the progeny given the right conditions.
the point/my point is; that it is genetically detrimental to the line when the whole idea of the line is to increase the frequency of possative traits.
i guess if you consider a high ratio of intersexed plants in the progeny possative then by all means use female seeds. but as you can see with some ibl's once its in its hard to get out....
Edit: what you start with is key. to me it would have to be the most important part of the whole process. but i guess for backyard bob who just wants more beans its fine to use female seeds. no serious breeder worth his salt would even consider for a second using female seeds.... ask them
like me my vocabulary isnt the best. prease excuse my poor engrish
the female from fem seeds may actually be not much different than the non fem mother. who is to say the non fem mother isnt intersexed anyway? just because it isnt expressed at the time of selection doesnt mean that the intersex trait wont be passed down and then expressed in the progeny given the right conditions.
the point/my point is; that it is genetically detrimental to the line when the whole idea of the line is to increase the frequency of possative traits.
i guess if you consider a high ratio of intersexed plants in the progeny possative then by all means use female seeds. but as you can see with some ibl's once its in its hard to get out....
Edit: what you start with is key. to me it would have to be the most important part of the whole process. but i guess for backyard bob who just wants more beans its fine to use female seeds. no serious breeder worth his salt would even consider for a second using female seeds.... ask them
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If you use a plant that will not herm and reverse it via cs or sts
its seeds will not produce hermi/intersex pods.
Unless some body has used a female that readily produces balls under stress
the chances of hermi's/"intersexual expression"[thanks zam]
are remote using cs or sts
Unfortunately there may be fem beans out there that were "fem"
via hermed plants and called "fem" "s1"..instead of beans from
hermi stock, and it does not make for a fun grow, or result in enjoying
all female beans lol.
However it is surely best to "breed" with non selfed plants [i guess]
But
Like Ezra said, I have not seen evidence of problems when pollenating s1 females especially if the pollen is normal unreversed.
its seeds will not produce hermi/intersex pods.
Unless some body has used a female that readily produces balls under stress
the chances of hermi's/"intersexual expression"[thanks zam]
are remote using cs or sts
Unfortunately there may be fem beans out there that were "fem"
via hermed plants and called "fem" "s1"..instead of beans from
hermi stock, and it does not make for a fun grow, or result in enjoying
all female beans lol.
However it is surely best to "breed" with non selfed plants [i guess]
But
Like Ezra said, I have not seen evidence of problems when pollenating s1 females especially if the pollen is normal unreversed.
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JWP
Active member
Yes i agree with all of what you just said Rgd.
I really cant comment on breeders practices but im sure a lot wouldnt be stress testing for intersexual expression when producing regular beans, let alone female beans.
Maybe they just dont think that true females are that important to go after compared with other traits.
I can understand that though because it would narrow the list of potential parents from say 50% down to 15%. To me personally this small percentage of females are what im looking for.
Unless a true female is used to make the female beans then the chances that the undesired (by me anyway) intersexual trait will be passed down & dominant is extreemly high. the end result is the same. an increase in the frequency of intersex genes.
less shims (bit of her, bit of him) has to be high on the priority list for most growers surely. in fact im sure it is. thats why they want female seeds to start with. unless using a true female you are effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face. even if most dont realize it
Just because the allele containing the intersex gene is not dominant in this female does not mean that the progeny will not produce plants that are intersex dominant. But i guess thats the whole idea behind female seeds. Capturing this dominant allele by using cs or sts. Its a pitty that a lot of the time it doesnt work out this way.
When both a true female & a true male are used then the true genes in both the male & female dominant alleles will be inherited by the progeny increasing the frequency of true genes as apposed to intersex. To me this is the best way forward to get more females, true females.
I onces asked SamS the best way to find true males. Maybe he didnt see my question. I guess its the same as with females, stress.
Anyone have any knowledge abt this subject?
I really cant comment on breeders practices but im sure a lot wouldnt be stress testing for intersexual expression when producing regular beans, let alone female beans.
Maybe they just dont think that true females are that important to go after compared with other traits.
I can understand that though because it would narrow the list of potential parents from say 50% down to 15%. To me personally this small percentage of females are what im looking for.
Unless a true female is used to make the female beans then the chances that the undesired (by me anyway) intersexual trait will be passed down & dominant is extreemly high. the end result is the same. an increase in the frequency of intersex genes.
less shims (bit of her, bit of him) has to be high on the priority list for most growers surely. in fact im sure it is. thats why they want female seeds to start with. unless using a true female you are effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face. even if most dont realize it
Well i do disagree with this a little...Rgd said:
Just because the allele containing the intersex gene is not dominant in this female does not mean that the progeny will not produce plants that are intersex dominant. But i guess thats the whole idea behind female seeds. Capturing this dominant allele by using cs or sts. Its a pitty that a lot of the time it doesnt work out this way.
When both a true female & a true male are used then the true genes in both the male & female dominant alleles will be inherited by the progeny increasing the frequency of true genes as apposed to intersex. To me this is the best way forward to get more females, true females.
I onces asked SamS the best way to find true males. Maybe he didnt see my question. I guess its the same as with females, stress.
Anyone have any knowledge abt this subject?
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JWP,
To be more accurate I should have said ,using plants that never herm/intersex on me i have never had a nanner or a pod from the s1's.
The plants from them have been amazingly stable and similar.
I do s1's to do my best to hang onto the plant if i ever lose the clone.
To be more accurate I should have said ,using plants that never herm/intersex on me i have never had a nanner or a pod from the s1's.
The plants from them have been amazingly stable and similar.
I do s1's to do my best to hang onto the plant if i ever lose the clone.
