Breeding for beginners

[Guest]

Yes they will look very simular as clones would(enviromentl strees may make these vary slightly but not much) But the next batch will only show vigor if that plants genes are for a vigorus plant. Hope that makes sence.

Vigor is the plant expressing its traits and all of them and the dominate wins out making it vigorus in that way.

Glasspackedbowl you seam to got this shit down pat.

Thanks for shearing the knowlage

So whats makes a plant vigours is the fact that it has the domanate and the not so domanate genes in there fighting each other to show?

I am takeing the "next batch" to mean the F3 genaration.

But if the whole F2 genaration are showing all the dominate traits of both the parents (P1) how do i tell wich are the vigorus ones too use in the next cross?

here is a pick of my two mums and the dads below.








heres a pic of the seeding process i over did it a bit when i diluted the pollin with flour at about 1:10 this makes a lot of seeds though

 

[Azra3l]

Hi,

My first question is these strains should show hybrid vigor. But what exactly is hybrid vigor?

The hybrid vigor sometime called heterosis is a phenomenon occuring when crossing two varieties. It is generally understood by this term that the hybrid is superior in comparison to the parents in development or in the expression of other valuable features. Usually hybrids show accelerated growth and development, higher viability and greater resistance to unfavourable influence of environment and diseases. It happen with most living beings, animals and plants.

Theories to explain this phenomenon are numerous:
-hypothesis of dominance (Jones, 1917), is based on a frequently observed correlation between dominance and favourable factors, as a result of overlapping of dominant genes over recessive genes in homologous chromosomes.
-hypothesis of overdominance by Hull (1945),says that heterozygosis by itself promotes survival and development power.

Nowadays, the most accepted is the theory of Haldane (1955), who put forward a biochemical theory of heterosis. According to this theory, heterosis is conditioned by higher biochemical supply versatility of the hybrid zygote. The reason is that the heterozygote contains relative but different (and supplementary to each other) genetic products, or forms absolutely new materials.

And if this is so all the F1 plants would appair to be Clones but in reality have different gene "codes" (That word again)

Errr, the point you 're missing is that we are working on a limited amount of characters. For the characters we are working on, the plants will express the same phenotypes in F1 if the parents are homozygous but:
-there are the hundreds, no thousands of genes we are not working on which could be homo- or heterozygous
-the mixing during the meiose

So you're far from having "clones". To put it simply, let's say you have black eyes (BB) and your girlfriend blue eyes (bb). All of your children will have black eyes (Bb) but in no way they will be clones





Cheers

 

[highonthechroni]

nice info, Azra3l

 

[glasspackedbowl]

So whats makes a plant vigours is the fact that it has the domanate and the not so domanate genes in there fighting each other to show?

I am takeing the "next batch" to mean the F3 genaration.

But if the whole F2 genaration are showing all the dominate traits of both the parents (P1) how do i tell wich are the vigorus ones too use in the next cross?

here is a pick of my two mums and the dads below.

1. I believe so.

2. Yes f3 is was I was refuring too.

3. Pick the plant thats dominate in the closet way to what your lookin for. IE faster growing faster flowering fatter buds more buds style of plant structure. The amount of indica vs sativa you want. I tent to believe that plants with wider leafs will be more indica dominate in plant traits.

4. Well vigor will show in how fast the plant grows taller. How far apart the nodes are. The ones that show sex first. I believe these will get you the vigor you want.

I think that the first female is more vigorus. The nodes are tight buds are larger and lower buds are larger. Theres lot of excess leaf. Leading me to believe it put out 110%.

The males are in that pic together right? Well I see the one on the right being more indica the male cola tips come together really tight and fast. While the other male seam to be putting off more leaf and growing more spear like male colas. The last thing is how many pollen sacks for the more the better the yeild from him will be meaning he will produce more then the other guy plant.

 

[Guest]

I think that the first female is more vigorus. The nodes are tight buds are larger and lower buds are larger. Theres lot of excess leaf. Leading me to believe it put out 110%.

when you say 110% you mean its time to pick? or do you mean it gave all the veg it could do at that height.

Because people allways type about pinching or toping a plant when its in veg but never when its in budding stage. shame on them

I allways top buds with a sharp razar blade, Right at that stage in growth when the buds are streched till its not going to go no more, but still ent "fat up" yet.
the buds do the same thing the plants would do and strech out more causeing the plant to bud for longer and giveing more yeild. (a little nitro at this point dont hurt either)



this is a close up or the one plant that produce 4 branches from the start when it was re-poted the main stem was covered too. Shes just about ready for her "bud toping" do you think its a "trait" that can be passed on to a next generation.

The closer male is the St Anns jamican this is the "skunk" the second one is a Delat these are about 5 weeks old.

Well the plants seam to be close to each other so you should take the males out early to avoid a early seeded plant some prefur useing a little cutting of the first set of male flowers.

Its much more efective controling A pollanation you could get about 300 beans off a plant this size.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

I ment that if gave you more per cola then the other plant. The other plant should produce the same sized colas not matter how many of them there are. I see that the one with 4 branches isnt as fat nor a compact. The bud to plant ratio is very nice.

Weird I have never heard of anyone toping in flowering execpt to make clones late in the game.

Personally I flower till the plant isnt producing any more new MFEMF hairs and the rest are nice and dryed.

IF there any more u wanna get into or if I missed anything post again. BEing stoned makes it hard to be sure I got it all.

 

[Guest]

OK i remember reading that when you pinch a plant that the axuins that are going to the main growth tip get redirect to the smaller growth tips and this is what makes the plant start to branch out

Well, if you pinch the tip of a bud the same thing happens the axuins that were going to the main bud tip gets redirect to the other bud tips and this makes the buds grow longer and fatter, in fact way fatter.

Correct me if i am wrong: once you are trying to stableize a strain a back cross to the F1 gen would be a big help dont matter what the traits are you are trying to grab.For one reason: the F1 contains all the genes of both the p1's.

If i were to cross a F2female + F2male
And the F2 female has the genes for tight purple colas There is no way to tell if the male has those genes.(there are 16 different sets of genes he could have) But its the tight purple colas that is wanted, then, you would have to do a lot of cross breeding of the offspring(f3) to find what your looking for.

However a back cross of the F2 female (with the tight purple colas) to the said F1 male would means that all the offspring would contain the gene for tight purple colas. because the F1 contains all 16 of the genes that you are working with

From there all you would have to do is stabilaze the strain with 3 crosses of the following generations.

 

[Azra3l]

Hi,

OK i remember reading that when you pinch a plant that the axuins that are going to the main growth tip get redirect to the smaller growth tips and this is what makes the plant start to branch out
Well, if you pinch the tip of a bud the same thing happens the axuins that were going to the main bud tip gets redirect to the other bud tips and this makes the buds grow longer and fatter, in fact way fatter.

Humm, wrong...
Auxins are produced by the apex and then go down . Auxin is a growth regulator responsible for growth, stem elongation and inhibiting branching out (It's a distance dependant inhibitor , explaining why the more far branchs are from the apex, the more devellopped they're). The growth of secondary branchs is controlled by cytokinins produced by the roots .

When you pinch, you block the pathway of auxins which cannot inhibit the growth of the branchs thus leading your plant to branch out



Cheers

 

[glasspackedbowl]

Hi,
Humm, wrong...
Auxins are produced by the apex and then go down . Auxin is a growth regulator responsible for growth, stem elongation and inhibiting branching out (It's a distance dependant inhibitor , explaining why the more far branchs are from the apex, the more devellopped they're). The growth of secondary branchs is controlled by cytokinins produced by the roots .

When you pinch, you block the pathway of auxins which cannot inhibit the growth of the branchs thus leading your plant to branch out

I dont know about all that jazz. But all toping a plant does is take away the main growth tip resulting in the 2 lower leaf sets grow as the mains. So doing this with a flowering bud would have a simular effect.

 

[Azra3l]

Hi,

I'm just talking about the mechanisms involved. About doing it with buds, the results would be more devellopped branchs resulting in more sites for budding, thus bigger buds I would guess...
Worth giving it a try


+++

 

[mace_ecam]

I'm just talking about the mechanisms involved. About doing it with buds, the results would be more devellopped branchs resulting in more sites for budding, thus bigger buds I would guess...

smaller buds infact, but more of them i seriously doubt that it would increase yield...

But all toping a plant does is take away the main growth tip resulting in the 2 lower leaf sets grow as the mains. So doing this with a flowering bud would have a simular effect.

Its no secret that terminal budsites are superior to lateral budsites, once you cut the terminal budsites, the next lower lateral budsites will become the terminal ones.

There is a lot of good info about auxins and cytokins in regards to the growthcycle on the net, its worth the search.

mace

 

[glasspackedbowl]

again this is breeding for beginners if you want to use those terms make ya own thread. its lost on me and I dont need to go that far into terms when I know the basics, thats enough.

 

[mace_ecam]

glasspackedbowl,

what # populations would you recommend for serious breeding efforts?

 

[glasspackedbowl]

50-100 plants for a complete range of phenos and there will be 5 + choice moms in there. and some nice dads people dont spend enugh time growing males to see good ones.

 

[Guest]

Azra3l you are provideing some good info but it is like every thing you type is cut& paste man, i am now grasping this stuff it would be a big helpp if you were to type what you mean in your own words.

glasspackedbowl hope i ent asking to much questions for yah cause i got nuff nuff more to ask too. this is a lovey tread with all the info any small scale breeder could want

Azra3l answer me this: if axuins stops growth tips from growing how comes when you pinch a main stem it stops growing? if axuins only stops the secondary tips from growing how comes when you pinch a main growth tip it stops growing as well? I am looking foward too your simple worded answer.

I am glad you guys see what i mean about "toping" a bud. its a way to increase yeild for sure.

Too bad mace_ecam dosent see the same reasoning. He is thinking that if a bud is toped it would make more smaller buds wich is not so.
If you know how weed grows and its phases you would know the budding stage is realy two stages where the buds set(1) and then fatten up(2) in the end.
If you top a bud when it is now "setting" the smaller bud sites(on the same bud) open up and grow a little more. causeing the bud as a whole to grow fatter, longer, denser,ticker etc.....

the results would be more devellopped branchs resulting in more sites for budding, thus bigger buds I would guess...

Just what i mean

50-100 plants for a complete range of phenos and there will be 5 + choice moms in there. and some nice dads people dont spend enugh time growing males to see good ones.

Yup this is a good number of F2s to plant as this is the generation that would show the different mixes of the two P1s(parent plants)genes.

When growing the first F1s however you dont need so much of them, maby 10 or so and just cross the best lookin two.

Allways save the F1 seed for back crossing or if "something" was to happen and you were too lost the strain you would have your starting point there handy.

When growing out the F2s make sure you grow a F1 male to back cross with the same time this would shorten your time trying to stablize a strain by a lot

 

[Azra3l]

if axuins stops growth tips from growing how comes when you pinch a main stem it stops growing? if axuins only stops the secondary tips from growing how comes when you pinch a main growth tip it stops growing as well?

You want it simple ? ...

Okay, if you pinch, you're causing the flow downward (and with it auxins) and upward to stop. So the plant will rather mend its stem than making it grow ...


Edit: but we're drifting from the subject, so if Glasspackedbowl want his breeding for beginners back, let somebody erase my posts in this thread

 

[glasspackedbowl]

you dont need to delete them. just keep it simply

 

[glasspackedbowl]

BB ask away Thats what I live for is to help others grow some bomb assed shit. Notice all my test grows and all the added info on what I do and why. Other wise hell growing is only fun if we all get too.

 

[Guest]

Well lets keep it on track then​

Is there anything i could give to a plant that would make it produce seed faster or better?

100 plants would be a bitch for a guy with one grow room just to find 5+ good mums, is there any way to keep the numbers down or to speed up the process?

I was reading about growing a plant in 12/12 from seed no veg all you got to do is choice them relative to each other.
I know if this does work it would give you a lot more room to play with.
what do you guys think glasspackedbowl & Azra3l and who ever elece knows (or want to) whats going on

i am just looking for the best way to make my perfit strain

( i most cirtainly do want to learn all i can )

There is a guy named zamalito that knows his stuff as well, i ent seen him around lately though.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

any nutes that are suposed to help the plant flower faster. I like my salt leach its a mix on enzimes and what not. It always makes the plants jump forward. Its also recomends using it near the end to speed the finish of plant seeds should finish faster also.

Yes grow 10 to 20 at a time keep a clone and repeat untill u you 5 keepers. Then you can guess you did ya best to find these preshous(not spelled right) moms.

I dont know but I would like to try going from seed to flowering without a veg. I need the space for that though.