Breeding a Cambodian auto

[teide]

Sounds like a good plan, aliceklar. Any TRSC landrace auto project is fascinating. The challenge in my opinion is getting as little from the auto as possible more than the auto gene. I am also tempted at this stage to cross the f1 with another auto to double the auto phenos to 50%, but that would increase the auto output in the cross. Do you think there will be enough Syrian landrace left in the cross if you first cross it to an auto ak47 and then cross that f1 with another auto? The resulting f2 would have twice the ratio of autos, and crossing those f2s would most likely give you quite a stable auto f3 generation. Quicker route to auto, yes. I am just wondering how much syrian landrace those will look.
Or do you plan to backcross the f2 to the syrian mother and start over? If so, we are doing the same. I plan on breeding down to f3 full auto and then backcross to pure landrace and repeat.
I am at f2 right now, and the cambo f2 should be 25% auto. I am hoping to find auto phenos, but last time I searched for autos in f2 was in a brazilian sativa cross, and I didn't find an auto female from 20 seeds. Only one auto male. I used that pollen on a non-autoing f2 sister, and f3 seeds are ready next week. Takes longer to get full auto generation this way, but I have used pure auto just once in that cross, and the final auto should have more brazilian in it than if using auto twice.

 

[zif]

TRSC Kerala x AutoNL here.

I’m also using the take to pure auto f3, backcross, and repeat strategy.

I’d make selfs with STS to intensify selection towards the Kerala type between backcrosses, but it seems dicey with autos....

 

[romanoweed]

I have read from some Reeferman resellers about a Thai-Auto cross. That was breed exactly how your Approach is. Crossed thai to Auto, then 6 Generations crossed with Thai to lower Auto-Percentage, but keeping Auto-Trait.

I have to clarify, im not shure if those Reefrman-resellers just made up this Story, since there are some Rumors about them, their Stuff might be not real, so might be their Descriptions.

IF its real, and it could be , Reeferman prooved he made some serious Attemts taming SE Asians with his Cambodian Haze (Cambodian x purple Haze) , selected for shortest Pheno for Decades, then this might give you hope it is actually dooable.
However, Science says, in F1 you should get 25 percent leaning to Auto, in F2 only 12,5 Percent leaning to Auto. And so on... And probably they are even fewer that fully display this AutoTRAIT. Why? Cause the scientific Description of "Leaning" doesent necessarly mean its fully there. Fully performing an Auto-trigger.

Whatever the numbers are, if that Story about one Reeferma-strain is true, it said he made an Auto-Thai. with very low percentage actual AutoStrain, then you are on the right Track

Good Luck, but i would not overhurry going into F3. If you think you might find an Auto-triggering in Bouth Parents, i would saved that Male Pollen, searched longer in this F2-Stage. CAUSE i heard you shall never fix a Problem at later Point in Time, you should go back , grow more F2s, till you did it good enough. You might loose Time, once a Pheno is locked into your Selection, it takes more Time breed it out later, than go a Step back, work longer on F2. It could take you ages othewise. Dont hurry.. A knowlegable Breeder told me this

 

[aliceklar]

The challenge in my opinion is getting as little from the auto as possible more than the auto gene. I am also tempted at this stage to cross the f1 with another auto to double the auto phenos to 50%, but that would increase the auto output in the cross. Do you think there will be enough Syrian landrace left in the cross if you first cross it to an auto ak47 and then cross that f1 with another auto? The resulting f2 would have twice the ratio of autos, and crossing those f2s would most likely give you quite a stable auto f3 generation. Quicker route to auto, yes. I am just wondering how much syrian landrace those will look.
Or do you plan to backcross the f2 to the syrian mother and start over? If so, we are doing the same. I plan on breeding down to f3 full auto and then backcross to pure landrace and repeat.
I am at f2 right now, and the cambo f2 should be 25% auto. I am hoping to find auto phenos, but last time I searched for autos in f2 was in a brazilian sativa cross, and I didn't find an auto female from 20 seeds. Only one auto male. I used that pollen on a non-autoing f2 sister, and f3 seeds are ready next week. Takes longer to get full auto generation this way, but I have used pure auto just once in that cross, and the final auto should have more brazilian in it than if using auto twice.

Those are all good questions! At the moment, I'm still making up my mind... there are two different projects here - one would be to try for a plant that was as close as possible to the original syrian landrace, but fully auto. So that would mean crossing the most-syrian of the F2 autos back to the Syrian, and then repeating the process - maybe for a few rounds? This is the kind of project that gives me goosebumps - and have also been considering trying an auto project like this with Johaar (which is a favourite smoke, but is a huge vigorous plant that takes forever to finish indoors). Maybe take things one step at a time...



Another project would just be to explore the phenos produced by the Syrian/AK47 and see if I particularly like the effect of any of them. I'm attracted to the AK47 because its a relatively uncomplicated hybrid, and doesnt have any skunk in it.



I'm torn because I'd like to do both, but they are very different projects. Hoever, maybe I dont have to choose. Because I tend to pollinate a lot, but in a carefully controlled way, I'll have plenty of seed options when the time comes to decide - and by then I will have had the benefit of the grow, and the smoke...

 

[teide]

Hehe, we think alike. I've pondered the exact same options. I think in the end I will end up with a mix of the alternatives, as I will cross and backcross for a long time, and interesting phenos will show up where not expected and things might be turning out different than planned regardless of intentions and careful notes.
A few things people smarter than I have pointed out.
Backcrossing from f2 to landrace is not an ideal choice, as the first autos showing up in f2 will be few. Good phenos may not show up. If waiting to f3 or f4, there are more autos to choose from for a backcross.
Also f2 autoflowering individuals may carry the auto trait, but they may also have unwanted recessive traits that don't show up in f2, and we risk passing them on while backcrossing, only to find them later.
Like romanoweed says, these traits will be hard to breed out, and we are better off not using these f2s, rather than trying to erase the mistakes further down the breeding process.
I will intercross the auto flowering f2s to increase auto percentage in f3. At the same time I will also backcross the first autos in f2 to the cambo landrace, just to reach the first bx quicker. While doing so, I will just have to keep the lines separate by careful note-taking and registering.
I am sure the f3 and f4 generation will give me better phenos than the few autos showing up in f2.
But the eagerness to reach the first backcross early makes me also want to use f2.

Repeated backcrosses do work to increase the landrace input and minimize the total genes coming from the auto in the final hybrid. There are a few examples of seedbanks that have done this, both to increase the final size, and also to make the terps and other traits more similar to the photoperiod parent.
This may not be necessary though. Many have advised me just to make plenty of seeds and do a careful selection as I go along, and backcrossing may be unnecessary for finding a pheno that really resembles the photo parent.
I want to do the backcrosses anyway, because I think this will require smaller populations than if searching for phenos without backcrossing. I also believe in the "cubing" theory, when repeated backcrosses gradually purge the unwanted chromosomes from the auto donor, leaving the final hybrid with a genepool mostly consisting of genes from my cambodian landrace, after three or four repeats.
This way I will feel content with knowing that my auto version has mostly cambodian genes plus the auto trait, even if it looks different from the original cambodian plant.

I like your plans, and I hope to see your progress in a grow log somewhere soon! I agree on the idea of not using a complicated hybrid as the auto donor. A ruderalis would be the purest route, but tedious. Many have used northern lights auto, as NL seems to not dominate much in crosses. zif a few posts back, and ACE with their zamaldelica and malawi autos.
I also would like to see you take on the johaar!

 

[romanoweed]

Like romanoweed says, these traits will be hard to breed out, and we are better off not using these f2s, rather than trying to erase the mistakes further down the breeding process.

yes, in practise that means: search further for better F2s, and you gain more Time than going into F3, F4 to stabilize the Autotrait/keeping the Cambodian Effect.

But in this Case of literally Transforming a Strain Cambod x Auto, it might be different to a DEGREE. Why, cause you want the half Part of Auto selected out, aswell as the "half Part" of Cambodian not "eaten" in the Selectingprocess. Say you managed to do this by good F1-SELECTION... The Game is still on in the F2 (dangerous Game of eaten Cambodgenes, kept Auto-weakness) . And by going down the Road till say F8, you have won the Game for a Long long time. The Game is won!

So, in this Special Case, and limited Time/Space (Onemanshow), you might have to call it a Day with absolutely perfecting the F2 at some Point. SINCE you want go down the Road till F8 too (or aproximately).

Whether you choose the Backcrossingpath or simple Selectingpath,

Find the balance, dont hurry, feel the Freedom to redoo F2, but you wanna go down the Road too. But its probably better to take more Time for F2, than the Rest, more Time for F3 than the Rest , and so on . yes!

(in this Post are my interpretations of what i learned, eg. not hurrying, but constructivly burring Genes on the other Hand)

 

[romanoweed]

Reefermans Auto-Thai is called Thai-Panic

He didnt go the Backcrosssingpath, (i would also preffere Backcrossing) but if you look how many Percent were Autoflowering, you might think twice, as Reeferman usually does propper Sized Selection:

---------------------------

Thai-Panic Reeferman - Orig. Description:



When we set out to try to make a auto version of our Lemon Thai we were not very hopeful as she is a 13-14 week pure thai strain when we made the first f-1 with our rudderallis x Durban IBL only 10% Auto flowered we were not sure they would auto flower and if they did how long they would take well we moved onto the f-2 generation and we got 25% Auto flowering than the f-3 where we saw 70% Auto flowering and they were fully finished in 85 days structurally and nose was exactly like the Thai Mother shooting fox tails and full on lemon thai smell we loved in the f-4 we got 90% and in this f-5 generation we have 100% Auto flowering lemon Thai that is fully mature in 80-85 days with a full up inspirational thai high and a flavour and smell that m strain makes it difficult to believe its a Auto flower amazing Auto ! like no Other these plants are tall and thin like the lemmon reaching 7-8 ‘ easily outdoors with a typical SE asian Sativa structure in every way.

These Plants stretch rapidly be prepared to have supports , if your in a Panic for pure Sativa high get Thai-panic yield 2-2.5 oz per plant in 8-85 days from germination to cut

 

[zif]

Any thoughts on Reef’s odd percentages?

The main auto allele seems to behave largely as a classical recessive, although perhaps decreasing hours-of-dark to trigger in heterozygous plants....

10% autos in the F1 is especially peculiar. Auto potential in the Lemon Thai parent line? But *not* from the typical gene?

That weirdness aside, the backcrosses are critical to breaking up linked traits getting pulled along with the auto allele. Allard apparently suggested going to the f3 then doing two consecutive backcrosses, repeating selection for the homozygous recessive, and again backcrossing twice as an efficient procedure to ‘add in’ a recessive trait.

I’ve been poking around at the mathematics. Very complicated stuff, revolving around exact what the chromosome looks like near the gene of interest, the length of the gene and chromosome, the number of other chromosomes, just for starters.

The one clear fact is that more backcrosses is better!

 

[teide]

10% autoing in f1 seems not to be the norm, from what I've read, it might very well have something to do with dayneutral genes in tropical sativas. That said, fire 99 by real gorilla seeds is described as an f1 with 10% autoing. It is an auto c99 crossed with fire og, no tropical sativa in that mix.
Nice info on Allard and backcrossing, zif. Makes me more confident that backcrossing is the way to go, rather than just selecting.
What did you nean by two consecutive back crosses? Bx f3 to photo and then directly backcrossing that offspring to the same photo,
Or backcrossing twice, but with one sibling cross to recatch auto gene before backcrossing to photo?

 

[romanoweed]

yes, i was remembering Reefermans Thai Panic used just thai x Auto. Instead it uses Lemonthai, wich is not pure Thai. Nicely breed still

 

[zif]

10% autoing in f1 seems not to be the norm, from what I've read, it might very well have something to do with dayneutral genes in tropical sativas. That said, fire 99 by real gorilla seeds is described as an f1 with 10% autoing. It is an auto c99 crossed with fire og, no tropical sativa in that mix.
Nice info on Allard and backcrossing, zif. Makes me more confident that backcrossing is the way to go, rather than just selecting.
What did you nean by two consecutive back crosses? Bx f3 to photo and then directly backcrossing that offspring to the same photo,
Or backcrossing twice, but with one sibling cross to recatch auto gene before backcrossing to photo?

Two generations. You’d need enough plants to avoid accidentally choosing homozygous photo parents when making the second backcrosses. Working out the punnet squares makes it easy to see why/what you need.

That’s interesting about the fire 99. Maybe it’s really 1/8 in both cases? Much easier to explain....

 

[herblux]

Very interesting Teide!

I believe there is some more desirable phenos to be found in the Landrace Bureau Siberian Ruderalis, so do not give up on them too soon.

Had them growing this season and while there was many plants that would be considered crap by normal standards, similar to the one in your pic, there was one male in particular, which had MUCH nicer. Much more vigor than all others, had denser + bigger male flower clusters and produced more smell than the others. No clue about potency. It was one out of 7 males, so going by that (definitely not statistically relevant though haha!) you should find a good one growing 20 Siberians. Could be done in a pretty small space, using tall pots. The one in the image are 3l/1gal, but could be done in 0.5/1l pots, if you have to and then repot early once you identify some decent ones. Not as great for your quest though - wider leaves. I know you want to only use the day neutral trait, but I think to extract JUST that, will be pretty tough without some DNA analysis or other highly scientific methods.

It's the one in front, centre of those 6. The bigger plant on the left is not a Siberian:

A week or so earlier in the bottom centre here:

Was going to collect pollen from it, but it got completely munched by deer. Not a single ball left on the poor bugger haha!

Looking forward what's to come here man

 

[herblux]

PS: Sorry to clarify, since I swapped the spots of the plants around between pictures - it's the tallest one (excluding the one on the far left) in the first picture...kinda centre centre...ish lol. You know which one.

 

[ArcticHerbsman]

Hello, very interesting thread and projects!

Here is a Muay Thai lady just before she was pollinated by 3 Ethiopian Highland males from Ace. Seeds starting to mature, and if time and space allows first incross will happen this winter. Goal is clean, uplifting flowers that can finish outside in the north.

I am all ears if any of you autopioneers care to write few words on your smoketests so far, best of luck and have fun everyone!

 

[teide]

That's an encouragement, herblux!
So if I understand correctly, all the small plants in the photo were ruderalis? The biggest one is not bad looking at all for a young rudi. A shame you didn't get to use it.
My rudi looked a lot like the tinier ones in your photo. I have no more Siberian ruderalis seeds, so I will need to use the pollen I harvested from this weakest plant I ever grew.
Interesting to see if there is anything worthwhile coming up in future offspring.

 

[teide]

Here is Muay Thai pollinated by 3 Ethiopian Highland males from Ace.

Thai x ethiopian..
You don't get more sativa auto than that, ArcticHerbsman! Wonderful.
So your muay thai autoflowered on you? That's great. Most flash super autos seem to not auto, just finish quicker than the pure photo version.
This summer I tried Flash Super Blueberry Haze outdoors. Didn't finish in time.
Mind you, I'm 60N.

It will be interesting to see if your thai x ethiopian will finish in time outdoors in your northern climate.

I am all ears if any of you autopioneers care to write few words on your smoketests so far,

The smoke test so far, for my sake, are very positive. The f1s had a great heady high, on the verge of being trippy, long lasting with no crash or headache next day, which is great. I have no idea what f2 will be like, but if it is similar to what I got in f1 I will be very pleased.

 

[ArcticHerbsman]

Hello teide, thanks, i wasnt aware they dont auto, so nice with a heads up. Had only one seed develop from two packs Muay Thai and one pack Black Samba, and she was small so kept her inside in tent 13light 11dark. Dont know if she would have flowered with longer hours. Have to contemplate little bit if its worth it to pursue or not. Im also high north so have to be auto.

But great to hear f1s smoke to your liking, interesting to see the development. Best of luck!

 

[teide]

This f2 has the leaf structure I'm after.
Thin, jagged leaves. F3 seeds forming.

 

[gorilla ganja]

Very nice.
Any autos show up in your F2 pop?
What kind of height are you getting out of them?

Peace GG

 

[teide]

Out of 20 popped, only one female auto. Not a single male autoing on me.
I flowered 5 non autos under 12/12 as they had the right appearance . Hopefully they are heterozygous for auto.
Had to put auto Jack pollen on them all to secure some auto seeds in this f3 round.
These will all be backcrossed to cambo later anyway.
I've also culled the rest of the f2s to replace with more f2 seeds, hoping to get more autos in that round.
They all seem to stop at 80 cm height, which is fine by me. They are all very columnar as well, no branching to speak of.