Bottomfeeding: no drain, no waste

[thesloppy]

Thanks, MR!

 

[Moppel]

i read that a lot of people say that coco cant be too wet. I saw plants this week of someone using this system, and his roots were totally brown after harvest.

funny thing is that he yielded about 500 gr p 600 watt light.

sometimes i dont get it........

 

[SRGB]

@ Thread starter.

Hi, thesloppy.

We read your thread and considered that these articles might be helpful to you:

Square Root™ Brand Garden Bag - Low-Tech Gardening [Methods]
www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=207656

Square Root Brand™ Garden Bag - Drain-To-No-Waste [Methods]
www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=207660

We normally do not post outside of our sub-forum. We only posted here because we have experimented in this area of gardening and considered that these articles might be of assistance to you.

Please do not hesitate to PM us if you have any questions, or visit and contribute in the sub-forum.

Please let us know if you would like this post removed from your thread. With all due repsect. Thanks.

/SRGB/

 

[VladTheInhaler]

I'm using this method for flowering in DrBud style SOG. I've run into some issues and can't help to wonder if the reason could be that I'm feeding plants in various stages of flowering at the same time?

 

[eman resu]

does bottom feeding allow for flushes to be done the same way? For example if you are measuring the nutrient ppm after a few minutes of sitting in the basin, and notice it is too high (say it raises to 1400ppm after adding 1000ppm nutes), can you simply bottom feed with a 1/4 nute solution to correct the salt buildup? Or do you need to top feed the low nute solution

 

[Midnight Rudy]

does bottom feeding allow for flushes to be done the same way? For example if you are measuring the nutrient ppm after a few minutes of sitting in the basin, and notice it is too high (say it raises to 1400ppm after adding 1000ppm nutes), can you simply bottom feed with a 1/4 nute solution to correct the salt buildup? Or do you need to top feed the low nute solution

What's a ppm? Ha! Joking certainly but if you are worrying that much about it you should probably buy some pumps or some foggers or something!!! I don't even check ph... just maxi grow and maxi bloom, super thrive, and sometimes some silicate during flower and then white vinegar to bring ph back down. I've pretty much settled on a 2 week flush in flower.

As for your question I'm not sure what you are asking. It sounds like you are trying to "oversteer" to correct an overdose of nutes. The term flushing (to me) means like a toilet, and you run a shit ton (pun) of strait water through the pot to clean out the undissolved salts. After that I feed straight water till harvest. Just don't get caught yup in the game of trying to grow superbuds until you get the basics down with any new system. Just do what it says on the package and check your ph until you are comfortable with you mix, then start playing around after you can do that easily!

After reading this it reminded me that I wanted to mention something else I have found important in regards to plants that are kept in veg a long time while bottom feeding. I have found that my moms like to get a good flush every month or so and then I just put them back into the solution. My moms are in 10-12 oz party cups so that may be part of why they like it.

 

[Midnight Rudy]

I'm using this method for flowering in DrBud style SOG. I've run into some issues and can't help to wonder if the reason could be that I'm feeding plants in various stages of flowering at the same time?

I started out bottom feeding nothing but maxibloom 1 tsp per gallon for everything from rooted cuttings and seedlings, to vegging plants to finished plants. Worked good, but I eventually went to maxi grow in veg because I was trying to get a little more speed. It is a little better and plants are a prettier shade of green! If you are going to do a perpetual garden and bottom feed, the tricky part is the flush. You need to find ways of separating some of the plants when they are being flushed, but otherwise you should be able to feed them all the same thing without any problems. Would humping your plants nutritional che get you a few more buds? Sure, probably but you easily make up for that with the greater efficiency of a perpetual garden. Keep it simple and just stick with a good all in one fert system.

What problems are you having? Really shouldn't be the feed if you are not changing things up.

 

[eman resu]

What's a ppm? Ha! Joking certainly but if you are worrying that much about it you should probably buy some pumps or some foggers or something!!! I don't even check ph... just maxi grow and maxi bloom, super thrive, and sometimes some silicate during flower and then white vinegar to bring ph back down. I've pretty much settled on a 2 week flush in flower.

As for your question I'm not sure what you are asking. It sounds like you are trying to "oversteer" to correct an overdose of nutes. The term flushing (to me) means like a toilet, and you run a shit ton (pun) of strait water through the pot to clean out the undissolved salts. After that I feed straight water till harvest. Just don't get caught yup in the game of trying to grow superbuds until you get the basics down with any new system. Just do what it says on the package and check your ph until you are comfortable with you mix, then start playing around after you can do that easily!

After reading this it reminded me that I wanted to mention something else I have found important in regards to plants that are kept in veg a long time while bottom feeding. I have found that my moms like to get a good flush every month or so and then I just put them back into the solution. My moms are in 10-12 oz party cups so that may be part of why they like it.

Hey thanks Rudy, I don't mean the final flush though. I run a relatively high EC (1.4-2.0 depending on strain) so salt buildup can be an issue.
Up until these past few weeks I had always watered by hand in a traditional top feed method. I check the runoff ppm and if it is greater than the nutrient solution I just fed with by >300ppm, I will flush the next feeding to eliminate some of the accumulated salt in the coco.

Lately I have been trying bottom-feeding in large part due to this thread. So my question is whether bottom feeding low nute solution can work as an effective way of eliminating the salt building in the coco. Or will I need to revert back to top feeding to flush the extra salt out.

It may seem like I am trying to "oversteer" but I am really just trying to avoid nute lockout. Once the salt is flushed through, its right back to the normal feeding schedule.

 

[VladTheInhaler]

I started out bottom feeding nothing but maxibloom 1 tsp per gallon for everything from rooted cuttings and seedlings, to vegging plants to finished plants. Worked good, but I eventually went to maxi grow in veg because I was trying to get a little more speed. It is a little better and plants are a prettier shade of green! If you are going to do a perpetual garden and bottom feed, the tricky part is the flush. You need to find ways of separating some of the plants when they are being flushed, but otherwise you should be able to feed them all the same thing without any problems. Would humping your plants nutritional che get you a few more buds? Sure, probably but you easily make up for that with the greater efficiency of a perpetual garden. Keep it simple and just stick with a good all in one fert system.

What problems are you having? Really shouldn't be the feed if you are not changing things up.

I feed my plants with the same mixture of 11-11-35 as I did when I was top feeding; EC is 1,6-2,0; pH 5,8 - 6,0.
First thing I noticed was Mg deficiency so i started adding a 1tsp/5l of Epsom salts. IMO, the problem is that I have very high carbonate hardness of tap water.
The other issue is that the flowering for last couple of months seems longer and flowers seem smaller. This however could be because I forgot to change my bulbs - it dawned to me yesterday that I've been running these 4 55 w Pl-l's for one year and 2 months straight.
Re: flush - it's actually quite easy - since I use small pots (cut down plastic bottles) I just put those bottles in slightly bigger containers so that they're isolated from the feed in the tub.

 

[Midnight Rudy]

Hey thanks Rudy, I don't mean the final flush though. I run a relatively high EC (1.4-2.0 depending on strain) so salt buildup can be an issue.
Up until these past few weeks I had always watered by hand in a traditional top feed method. I check the runoff ppm and if it is greater than the nutrient solution I just fed with by >300ppm, I will flush the next feeding to eliminate some of the accumulated salt in the coco.

Lately I have been trying bottom-feeding in large part due to this thread. So my question is whether bottom feeding low nute solution can work as an effective way of eliminating the salt building in the coco. Or will I need to revert back to top feeding to flush the extra salt out.

It may seem like I am trying to "oversteer" but I am really just trying to avoid nute lockout. Once the salt is flushed through, its right back to the normal feeding schedule.

Ignorance is bliss... I don't worry about any of that!!! During flowering I wouldn't worry about flushing unless you are getting some burning. For long term vegging, flush every couple of months. You aren't doing any good by pushing flowering nutes to the limit and then having to flush mid flower. If you aren't over feeding you shouldn't have to flush at all during flower until the end. IMHO, giving them a consistent diet is best. That's kinda what my understeer comment was (actually should have said oversteer but I'm sure you understood the point). All that said, if that is the way you roll,and it works for you, I'm not hating. You can flush from the top no problem fme. I literally take mine to the sink and run tap water through them.

I feed my plants with the same mixture of 11-11-35 as I did when I was top feeding; EC is 1,6-2,0; pH 5,8 - 6,0.
First thing I noticed was Mg deficiency so i started adding a 1tsp/5l of Epsom salts. IMO, the problem is that I have very high carbonate hardness of tap water.
The other issue is that the flowering for last couple of months seems longer and flowers seem smaller. This however could be because I forgot to change my bulbs - it dawned to me yesterday that I've been running these 4 55 w Pl-l's for one year and 2 months straight.
Re: flush - it's actually quite easy - since I use small pots (cut down plastic bottles) I just put those bottles in slightly bigger containers so that they're isolated from the feed in the tub.

In the 3 years I have been growing, I have always had trouble producing same quantities and quality in winter. I bought seedling mats and put them under all of my tray's. Things aren't perfect this winter but better than normal and I am sure that keeping the roots warm has made a huge difference. I also use epson salts but I use a good 2 finger pinch in 4 heaping mini-planting shovels of my reused coco/perlite mix and mix it into the soil once before potting up. I can't remember the last time I have seen an mg deficiency in any of my plants and never any toxicity. I run an Apollo 11 cut and they are know MG whores. Without the epsom, the A11 would show a deficiency until there was substantial uptake of the main nutes. There is a lot of room to play with epsom salts and a pretty big window between not enough and too much.

One major pitfall I notice when growing is that if I have a problem I then try a bunch of things to correct it. Then when it finally gets better, I am not 100% what the fix was. That is the biggest reason I went to the simplistic feeding method I use and just disregarded all the product hype. I found I don't need any of that shit and if I just do my simple little nute mix, I can pinpoint problems because I know it isn't how I feed because I know it always works and there aren't really any variables. If a plant doesn't like how I feed, it doesn't get kept and I keep on keeping on.

The idea of this method (for me anyways) was to keep things as simple as possible. If there is something wrong with a plant I know it isn't my nutes because I don't change it up from plant to plant and primarily grow cuts I know well, and that I started myself from seed.

 

[John Deere]

Here's a couple pix. I like pix.

Skunkman freebies, K.I.S.S, bottom fed, 01/21 and today.

 

[VladTheInhaler]

In the 3 years I have been growing, I have always had trouble producing same quantities and quality in winter.

I understand that, but my flowering box is next to the radiator so temps never get lower than 20 C. Since I started bottom feeding, now that I think about it, I had constant gradual reduction of yield.
And I could swear that my plants got lighter in color. All of these things happened with me changing only the shape of bottles I was using. It was really perplexing. Then I was checking dates of my first pics of the box and seen that they were taken more than a year ago! And I never changed bulbs! No way that that they put out sufficient intensity anymore.

 

[Midnight Rudy]

I understand that, but my flowering box is next to the radiator so temps never get lower than 20 C. Since I started bottom feeding, now that I think about it, I had constant gradual reduction of yield.
And I could swear that my plants got lighter in color. All of these things happened with me changing only the shape of bottles I was using. It was really perplexing. Then I was checking dates of my first pics of the box and seen that they were taken more than a year ago! And I never changed bulbs! No way that that they put out sufficient intensity anymore.

Man your going to change right before spring and we will never know if you were right! Ha!! I thing there is more to it than temperature... I think the plants just somehow know it's winter. Maybe nyou are on to something with the lights though? I also went from an overhead lighting system to a vert system 3 or 4 months ago, so I have changed a bunch of stuff. I've got a blubonic nearing harvest that should beat my current record and if that happens it means I have broken my winter funk. Keep me posted on the lights.

So JD's got the idea. I've been posting some updates in other threads but not hear so I will show some results of my vert micro. I bottom feed everything from clones to moms to veg plants to flower.
Here is my cabinet right after I set up the vertical.

Here is atypical rootball for me positioned about where it sat in the 2-liter bottle. This is 50/50 perlite coco and the top and bottom couple of inches just crumbled off with almost no roots inside but the ceter rea as shown was fairly dense. this was a Satori and produced about 3/4 of a zip.

Here it is mostly trimmed in the pot.

This is a kcbrains sweet dreams a friend gave me and it is in a ~1 litre mt38 minitreepot. This produced a little over 3/4 zip.

blubonic on the left and a Apollo 11 x Blubonic cross on the right.

same 2 plants. The cross is at 9 weeks and this is chop day but the blubonic has 5-6 more weeks to go, so it will be a lot bigger soon.

this is the cross. ended up being a little larfy but I think that was mostly because I let it bush out so I am trying it again. VERY strong and great berry flavor from the blubonic. Almost racy high. Don't mind the dog hair.

 

[VladTheInhaler]

I went from 1-15 grams per 3 plants to 5 grams. The worst thing is that I can't tell what went wrong since the only thing I changed in the setup is size and shape of my containers as I went from 1 liter round bottles to 1,2 liter square. Virtually nothing else has changed, yet from the week 2 of flower the girls first get taco curled, and Mg def starts rares its ugly head. I think that epsom salts helped, but I will know for sure in 2 weeks when my latest batch of clones goes in that critical 3rd week.
I'm in the process of getting RO as my tap water has EC 0,4-0,6 and high carbonate hardness/alkalinity. Other than that, I really don't know... Shit, I so don't want to go back to top feeding.

 

[LuciferianSahdu]

midnight rudy that is some very impressive use of space and light.

 

[TLoft13]

Years ago, I tried putting various house plants into my goldfish tank, pot and all. It was surprising how many did well, even completely submerged for as long as two weeks. Naturally, I concluded the experiment with a cannabis plant. It sat almost fully submerged (pot and bottom completely under, top was poking out) in that goldfish tank for two weeks and came out looking just as happy as the day it went in. Even soilmix plants can be totally submerged in water without a problem.

I had KC Brains KC33 outdoors who survived completly submerged- in a small river- for approximatly 10 days. Submarine weed. Other strains too, but KC33 was the only one coming out looking good, others were beat up/ damaged.

 

[Midnight Rudy]

Ha! Well I never did any other hydro method other than some mini-hempy's just before this but I will say that my yields have gone way up since I switched over from amended organic soil. Certainly in part becuase of the consistency of hydro. I have a stealth grow and this works great for me because I can water for a few days at a time or even set myself up for a week if needed. All without any mechanical components to fail or make noise. I have 2 nute mixes for my entire op and no guesswork on what to feed or what they need. those that don't like my mix/system get culled and it is that simple. I run perpetual so I always have a renewed supply. I absolutely never want for weed and the couple people who know about the grow don't either.

For my situation this works perfectly. I pull a 15-20 gm plant 2-3 times per month and that is easily more than I need. Certainly me ruining my plants with this non-working method may indeed cost me a gram here or there but I certainly don't care. In a larger op this could even be a few ounces, though I'm not convinced there is any loss. I also cut mine 50/50 with perlite which may in your mind make my experience different than coco IDK.

At the end of the day I have a grow camouflaged as a night stand that is dead silent within 24", and gives me ~2 zips a month for the cost of about $3 in nutes and $15 per month for 220 watts and a pc fan. This feeding method is absolutly ideal for me.

 

[cyat]

more marley wreck... bottom fed... no waste

 

[thesloppy]

Lovely plants, cyat.

 

[NPK]

I've been growing for about seven years now, six of those primarily in coco. Bottom-feeding is hands down the easiest method I've ever used. The zero-waste aspect is another huge benefit; I won't be throwing any more expensive nutrients down the drain, that's for sure.