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Blatent election fraud thread
- Thread starter flylowgethigh
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White Beard
Active member
Pol Pot, too, apparently...
'Boogieman'
Well-known member
I posted that because Stalin was mentioned, I don't really know who Trotsky even is.
White Beard
Active member
'Boogieman'
Well-known member
He's obviously nobody of importance.
only if you want to claim to understand what communism was about in the 20th century
'Boogieman'
Well-known member
I honestly couldn't give a fuck. The ideas of Marx and Trotsky led to people like Stalin and other murderous regimes.
plainly you don't
just that some people/institutions end up fighting the last war over again
others learn from the past
- no - but I think that Marxism has/does use 'racism' to further their cause -
- I'll have a listen to Hitchins on Trotsky -
- There were many investors/financiers from Germany, Britain and the USA lining up to fund the Bolshevik and Communist Revolutions in Russia at the time - Jacob Schiff an American banker was one of them - and has a very interesting history -
https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/jacob-h-schiff/
And yet the tribe of ignorance can specify, brand, vilify; even wipe out each and every shade in pursuit of non-existent 'me first'.
This cartoon by Robert Minor appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch in 1911. It shows Karl Marx surrounded by enthusiastic Wall Street financiers: Morgan partner George Perkins,
J.P. Morgan, John Ryan of National City Bank, John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie.
Immediately behind Marx is Teddy Roosevelt, leader of the Progressive Party.
* What emerges from this is a clear pattern of strong support for Bolshevism coming from the highest financial and political power centres in the United States; from men, who supposedly were "capitalists" and who according to conventional wisdom should have been the mortal enemies of socialism and communism.
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"learning pffft" they know all that they WANT to know already...don't confuse them with facts.
White Beard
Active member
What really emerges to me is that Minor had a definite view on Marx and Wall Street; I won’t pretend I understand what his view is, all I have to go by is the cartoon. IMO it does NOT show a “clear pattern of strong support for Bolshevism coming from the highest financial and political power centres in the United States”. Your connection to Bolshevism isn’t found in the cartoon (Bolshevism being kinda specific to the Russian Revolution, which was still some years in the future at the date of the cartoon). I would certainly think that the Wall Street eminences greeting Marx would NOT be especially tolerant of Marx’ critique of capitalism, so I am left curious, not informed (by the artist, that is).
- Yes not very clear there - so I will paste the words that came before it from 'The Creature from Jekyll Island' -
https://www.chinhnghia.com/The-Creature-from-Jekyll-Island-by-G.-Edward-Griffin.pdf
- On March 23, 1917 a mass meeting was held at Carnegie Hall to celebrate the abdication of Nicolas II, which meant the overthrow of Tsarist rule in Russia. Thousands of socialists, Marxists, nihilists and anarchists attended to cheer the event. The following day there was published on page two of the New York Times a telegram from Jacob Schiff, which had been read to this audience. He expressed regrets, that he could not attend and then described the successful Russian revolution as "...what we had hoped and striven for these long years". (Mayor Calls Pacifists Traitors, The New York Times, March 24, 1917, p. 2)
In the February 3, 1949 issue of the New York Journal American Jacob Schiff's grandson, John, was quoted by columnist Cholly Knickerbocker as saying that his grandfather had given about $20 million for the triumph of Communism in Russia. (To appraise Schiff's motives for supporting the Bolsheviks, we must remember, that he was a Jew and that Russian Jews had been persecuted under the Tsarist regime. Consequently the Jewish community in America was inclined to support any movement, which sought to topple the Russian government and the Bolsheviks were excellent candidates for the task. As we shall see further along, however, there were also strong financial incentives for Wall Street firms, such as Kuhn, Loeb and Company, of which Schiff was a senior partner, to see the old regime fall into the hands of revolutionaries, who would agree to grant lucrative business concessions in the future in return for financial support today.)
When Trotsky returned to Petrograd in May of 1917 to organize the Bolshevik phase of the Russian Revolution, he carried $10,000 for travel expenses, a generously ample fund considering bthe value of the dollar at that time. Trotsky was arrested by Canadian and British naval personnel, when the ship, on which he was traveling, the S.S. Kristianiafjord, put in at Halifax. The money in his possession is now a matter of official record. The source of that money has been the focus of much speculation, but the evidence strongly suggests, that its origin was the German government. It was a sound investment.
- Trotsky was not arrested on a whim. He was recognized as a threat to the best interests of England, Canada's mother country in the British Commonwealth. Russia was an ally of England in the First World War, which then was raging in Europe. Anything, that would weaken Russia - and that certainly included internal revolution - would be, in effect, to strengthen Germany and weaken England. In New York on the night before his departure Trotsky had given a speech, in which he said: "I am going back to Russia to overthrow the provisional government and stop the war with Germany." (A full report on this meeting had been submitted to the U.S. Military Intelligence. See Senate Document No. 62, 66th Congress, Report and Hearings of the Subcommittee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 1919, Vol. II, p. 2680.) Trotsky therefore represented a real threat to England's war effort. He was arrested as a German agent and taken as a prisoner of war.
With this in mind we can appreciate the great strength of those mysterious forces both in England and the United States, that intervened on Trotsky's behalf. Immediately telegrams began to come into Halifax from such divergent sources, as an obscure attorney in New York City, from the Canadian Deputy Postmaster-General and even from a high-ranking British military officer, all inquiring into Trotsky's situation and urging his immediate release.
- The head of the British Secret Service in America at the time was Sir William Wiseman, who, as fate would have it, occupied the apartment directly above the apartment of Edward Mandell House and who had become fast friends with him. House advised Wiseman, that President Wilson wished to have Trotsky released. Wiseman advised his government and the British Admiralty issued orders on April 21st, that Trotsky was to be sent on his way. ("Why Did We Let Trotsky Go? How Canada Lost an Opportunity to Shorten the War", MacLeans magazine, Canada, June 1919. Also see Martin, pp. 163-164.) It was a fateful deecision, that would affect not only the outcome of the war, but the future of the entire world.
It would be a mistake to conclude, that Jacob Schiff and Germany were the only players in this drama. Trotsky could not have gone even as far as Halifax without having been granted an American passport and this was accomplished by the personal intervention of President Wilson. Professor Antony Sutton says:
President Woodrow Wilson was the fairy godmother, who provided Trotsky with a passport to return to Russia to "carry forward" the revolution... At the same time careful State Department bureaucrats, concerned about such revolutionaries entering Russia, were unilaterally attempting to tighten up passport procedures. (Antony C. Sutton, Ph. D.: Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, published by Arlington House in New Rochelle, NY, 1974, p. 25)
And there were others, as well. In 1911 the St. Louis Dispatch published a cartoon by a Bolshevik named Robert Minor. Minor was later to be arrested in Tsarist Russia for revolutionary activities and in fact was himself bankrolled by famous Wall Street financiers. Since we may safely assume, that he knew his topic well, his cartoon is of great historical importance. It portrays Karl Marx with a book entitled Socialism under his arm, standing amid a cheering crowd on Wall Street. Gathered around and greeting him with enthusiastic handshakes are characters in silk hats identified as John D. Rockefeller, J.P. Morgan, John D. Ryan of National City Bank, Morgan partner George W. Perkins and Teddy Roosevelt, leader of the Progressive Party.
I think Stalin had him killed because he thought trotsky was a threat to the throne so to speak. He sent assassins to kill him in exile in Mexico
Idk trostskys specific involvement in the bloody revolution but he had a high level govt position and that’s enough for me to judge him a as a genocidal scumbag
There are two parties - fascists and the neoliberals who embolden them.
those would all be Democrats.
White Beard
Active member
I’ll grant that the ‘original’ neoliberals were disaffected Democrats...but they switched to calling themselves neo-conservatives before very long.
Neoconservatives have been at the forefront of increasing the power of the executive branch, and fundamentally reshaping US foreign policy. Check out the New American Century crew:
Project for the New American Century
Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney? Not exactly “liberals”...*and* fairly fascist.
Kind of agree with Cannavore about the two parties...but I’d call them a self-government party and an autocrat party.
Gypsy, thanks for your expansion: was not familiar with Rummel. More later.
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