BigTokes ~ "How-To" Of The Bio-Buckets 101

[Kwigybo]

So was it ever conclusively proven that Lucas was right or wrong about high water flow rates from pumping power, being the cause for high heat tolerance as opposed to the conventional theory of Beneficial Bacteria?

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26021

 

[Raphael]

So was it ever conclusively proven that Lucas was right or wrong about high water flow rates from pumping power, being the cause for high heat tolerance as opposed to the conventional theory of Beneficial Bacteria?

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26021

I read that post and Lucas never said that high water flow rates cause high heat tolerance. He said ebb and flow can have higher temps up to 80 because the roots aren't sitting in the water, as opposed to bubblers where problems occur around 70Fs.

In the bio bucket thread it says that higher air temps can be sustained, NOT higher water temps.

If roots are going to be submersed or 100% humidity all the time, the water needs to be COLD!

 

[Kwigybo]

I read that post and Lucas never said that high water flow rates cause high heat tolerance. He said ebb and flow can have higher temps up to 80 because the roots aren't sitting in the water, as opposed to bubblers where problems occur around 70Fs.

In the bio bucket thread it says that higher air temps can be sustained, NOT higher water temps.

If roots are going to be submersed or 100% humidity all the time, the water needs to be COLD!

I suggest you re-read the thread, my friend. Most of the thread was a dialogue about water/res temps and Lucas clearly states...

"I am impressed to learn how heat tolerant biobuckets are, but they accomplish that by using a very high water speed, which costs electrical use for the water pumps."

Lucas said the pumping power in BigToke's system (5000gph) was salient and that it and the waterfall effect which in turn results in more dissolved oxygen, was the cause for resistance to root rot (which is caused by oxygen deficiency at high temps).

So I restate the question; was this ever resolved and do we now know for sure what is allowing the Bio Buckets to excel at such high temps?

The biofield or the dissolved oxygen?

I do not mean to pry but it's the most interesting thread I've encountered on this site and it's anti-climactic conclusion left a bitter taste in my mouth. For the record I respect both growers as they are far more experienced than I, and they are a tribute to our community.

 

[Raphael]

just spent a couple hours reading through the whole post.

WOW did it go in a different direction than Lucas' OP!

There was never an agreed conclusion stated by either Lucas or BigToke.

Lucas is very firmly set in his flow rate > beneficial bacteria while several other users reported success and attributed it to the biofield, rather than flow rate.

"What about the post where delta said that he initially had used 7200 gph worth of pumping power , which was more than BT's 5k gph, and still was having major issues, RR ect., UNTIL he switched from clay to Lava rocks?"

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=446593&postcount=71

I agree with Dreamscape's post where he calls out the fact Delta nugs had root rot problems, even with HUGE flow rate, until he switched from hydroton to lava rox and then he has never had them since.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=432565&postcount=49

So there is evidence that shows even with high flow rate and high disolved oxygen, root rot was apparent until surface area of medium was increased and populated by beneficial bacteria.

 

[Kwigybo]

"What about the post where delta said that he initially had used 7200 gph worth of pumping power , which was more than BT's 5k gph, and still was having major issues, RR ect., UNTIL he switched from clay to Lava rocks?"

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=446593&postcount=71

I agree with Dreamscape's post where he calls out the fact Delta nugs had root rot problems, even with HUGE flow rate, until he switched from hydroton to lava rox and then he has never had them since.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=432565&postcount=49

So there is evidence that shows even with high flow rate and high disolved oxygen, root rot was apparent until surface area of medium was increased and populated by beneficial bacteria.

Yeah but Lucas asked Deltanugz if that was the ONLY thing he changed and Delta never replied.

There's also evidence to the contrary - 4th paragraph http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=446810&postcount=72

There are conflicting reports all over the place and it's hard to zero in, as it were, on anything concretised.

I have a feeling this isn't a favourite subject of many Bio-Bucket advocates. I mean some people even went as far as to say the Bio in Bio Buckets is a misnomer.

 

[BudGood]

I think it's a pointless argument, TBH. I read the thread long ago, Lucas is trying to pick apart the biobuckets, but he never grew in them. I could care less if it is high water flow or beneficial bacteria, (I'm more inclined to agree with the beneficial theory, IMO) all I know is they work. Ebb and flow is nice, it has it's positives and negatives just as any system does. I just prefer my buckets.

 

[Kwigybo]

I think it's a pointless argument, TBH. I read the thread long ago, Lucas is trying to pick apart the biobuckets, but he never grew in them. I could care less if it is high water flow or beneficial bacteria, (I'm more inclined to agree with the beneficial theory, IMO) all I know is they work. Ebb and flow is nice, it has it's positives and negatives just as any system does. I just prefer my buckets.

That sort of dialogue, discussion and free thinking is what helps the evolution of techniques and equipment, though. It seems perfectly healthy (pun intended). I mean your own Bio Buckets probably came about by someone either going against the grain, or refitting and retooling other systems in place at the time.

I know some growers can be rather sensitive to criticism or reworking of their methods of choice but I don't think it's disrespectful if the goal is to further an understanding of how things work. In fact I would go as far as to say that skepticism and analysis of techniques and equipment are the lifeblood of advancement and progress.

I think it's strange and/or wrong to say the Bio Buckets should remain a "pure" system. Hurtback himself said he is always looking for suggestions to improve the methodology of Bio Buckets.

 

[Raphael]

That sort of dialogue, discussion and free thinking is what helps the evolution of techniques and equipment, though. It seems perfectly healthy (pun intended). I mean your own Bio Buckets probably came about by someone either going against the grain, or refitting and retooling other systems in place at the time.

I know some growers can be rather sensitive to criticism or reworking of their methods of choice but I don't think it's disrespectful if the goal is to further an understanding of how things work. In fact I would go as far as to say that skepticism and analysis of techniques and equipment are the lifeblood of advancement and progress.

I think it's strange and/or wrong to say the Bio Buckets should remain a "pure" system. Hurtback himself said he is always looking for suggestions to improve the methodology of Bio Buckets.

I just don't think experimental theory belongs in the "How-To: Bio-Buckets 101" thread.

 

[turbolaser4528]

I just don't think experimental theory belongs in the "How-To: Bio-Buckets 101" thread.

good point, but i get what hes saying.

i think we need a new bio bucket thread where people can kinda of brainstorm and share their experiences, tweaks, and different designs and who knows maybe we can create an amazing system and change the world that much more!

 

[Raphael]

good point, but i get what hes saying.

i think we need a new bio bucket thread where people can kinda of brainstorm and share their experiences, tweaks, and different designs and who knows maybe we can create an amazing system and change the world that much more!

I agree. Maybe instead of a new thread about experimental bio buckets we could have a new section of the forum for posting variations of popularly accepted growing methods.

Either way, discussion about new methods is vital for any developing industry. Look at open source programs, like Open Office.

All possible though these forums, and when our hobby is still unpopular to talk about in public these forums become the biggest link between the growing noob getting the help he needs to get the relief he needs.

Cheers

 

[ynot-llat]

I like the system.

But wouldn't you need a ridiculously large reservoir for it to run smoothly.
And then like in Blaze's recirculating dwc thread, have a reservoir filling up the controller?

I mean look in Big Toke's photso he has like 18 5 gallon buckets. That's a 90 gallon reservoir right there.

Plus another 5 gallon controller where you have your "waterfall" effect happening.

Can someone correct me, as i'm thinking of this system, except the size of the reservoir is the only thing holding me back.

Theoretically, couldn't I just use lavarock in Blaze's system, and have the waterfall effect with my airstones. Wouldnt that be the same?

 

[punkp88]

new thread

new thread

good point, but i get what hes saying.

i think we need a new bio bucket thread where people can kinda of brainstorm and share their experiences, tweaks, and different designs and who knows maybe we can create an amazing system and change the world that much more!

Ive started one already on new and different ways to introduce Benefical bacteria to the system without lavarock.
lavarocks do harbor BB but seems like there are other ways without the roughness of the rocks, maybe someone has feedback on the beneficial side of this

New idea of bio buckets withot lava rock for BB, need feedback
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=139160

Thanks Punkp

 

[BudGood]

My answers are in bold.

I like the system.

But wouldn't you need a ridiculously large reservoir for it to run smoothly.
And then like in Blaze's recirculating dwc thread, have a reservoir filling up the controller?

Nope, you just need to have enough space to allow the water to collect in the res in the event of a power outage, and have a 12 inch tall waterfall.

I mean look in Big Toke's photso he has like 18 5 gallon buckets. That's a 90 gallon reservoir right there.

Actually he has 36. You don't need to have ALL of your water volume in the res, about 4-4.8 gallons will remain in the buckets. For example, I have a total volume of 66 gallons, the res only holds 18, the buckets hold 48. My res is big, but just to allow excess water to flow back in the event of a power failure, and to allow for the 1 foot waterfall. There is a formula for the amount of water you'll need in your res, in the thread. Time to read the thread again.

Plus another 5 gallon controller where you have your "waterfall" effect happening.

Nope, no controller, just the res. The water is fed from a tap, to a float valve in the res.

Can someone correct me, as i'm thinking of this system, except the size of the reservoir is the only thing holding me back.

Theoretically, couldn't I just use lavarock in Blaze's system, and have the waterfall effect with my airstones. Wouldnt that be the same?

Nope, they're completely different systems. Adding lava rock to blazeoneups doesn't make it a bio-system, and waterfall effect with airstones???? You're obviously missing the entire point of the biobuckets: No airstones, no chiller, no ph checking....If you want to build blazeoneups system., build it. If you want bio-buckets, build them. Theres no happy medium between the two, IMHO.

Kwigybo, you aren't the first to think they can "improve" biobuckets, and definitely not the last. Feel free to experiment, I prefer to save my experimentation for things that aren't gonna affect my yield, savvy? And, as Raphael said, experimental theory doesn't belong here. This thread is to help people who want to build a biobucket system and SUCCEED, not piss in the wind "experimenting". Make another thread for that, and good luck.

 

[ynot-llat]

can you reuse lava rock?

since it would have the beneficial bacteria on it.

 

[Kwigybo]

Kwigybo, you aren't the first to think they can "improve" biobuckets, and definitely not the last. Feel free to experiment, I prefer to save my experimentation for things that aren't gonna affect my yield, savvy? And, as Raphael said, experimental theory doesn't belong here. This thread is to help people who want to build a biobucket system and SUCCEED, not piss in the wind "experimenting". Make another thread for that, and good luck.

Excuse me sir, but I am not interested in nor did I ever say I'm going to experiment with the Bio-buckets to try to improve them. I am simply inquiring as to whether Lucas was right or wrong in concluding it is DO that is allowing them to work at higher temps rather than BB. Secondarily, I merely wanted to point out that free thinking should be encouraged even if it means proving people wrong.

So I ask again, in a thread entitled the "HOW-TO of Bio-buckets," is it DO via enormous pumping power or BB colonies on the grow medium? Obviously I know where BigToke stands but there seems to be conflicting ideas and I'd like to know if an explanation has been agreed upon.

 

[BudGood]

Excuse me sir, but I am not interested in nor did I ever say I'm going to experiment with the Bio-buckets to try to improve them. I am simply inquiring as to whether Lucas was right or wrong in concluding it is DO that is allowing them to work at higher temps rather than BB. Secondarily, I merely wanted to point out that free thinking should be encouraged even if it means proving people wrong.

So I ask again, in a thread entitled the "HOW-TO of Bio-buckets," is it DO via enormous pumping power or BB colonies on the grow medium? Obviously I know where BigToke stands but there seems to be conflicting ideas and I'd like to know if an explanation has been agreed upon.

OK, now we're going to play semantics, huh? Fuggit, I'm not gonna get drawn into this...

I think it's both the DO and the BB that make it possible. Others have tried to replicate it without the waterfall/lavarock and have failed. Your mileage may vary.

 

[ynot-llat]

My answers are in bold.



Nope, they're completely different systems. Adding lava rock to blazeoneups doesn't make it a bio-system, and waterfall effect with airstones???? You're obviously missing the entire point of the biobuckets: No airstones, no chiller, no ph checking....If you want to build blazeoneups system., build it. If you want bio-buckets, build them. Theres no happy medium between the two, IMHO.

Kwigybo, you aren't the first to think they can "improve" biobuckets, and definitely not the last. Feel free to experiment, I prefer to save my experimentation for things that aren't gonna affect my yield, savvy? And, as Raphael said, experimental theory doesn't belong here. This thread is to help people who want to build a biobucket system and SUCCEED, not piss in the wind "experimenting". Make another thread for that, and good luck.

can you reuse lava rock?

since it would have the beneficial bacteria on it.

 

[BudGood]

can you reuse lava rock?

since it would have the beneficial bacteria on it.

Yes, I'm using the same rocks I started out with 4 grows ago. I ALWAYS clean them really good with a water sprayer, to get off all the roots, clean out the hydro system, put fresh water in the system, and dump a large bottle of 3% peroxide in the res, and run the system. Hydrogen peroxide is h202, water is h20. After a bit, the extra oxygen molecule radicalizes and the peroxide turns into water. I'll let it run for a few days before I put clones in again, just to make sure the beneficials have had a bit of time to recolonize.

 

[turbolaser4528]

Yes, I'm using the same rocks I started out with 4 grows ago. I ALWAYS clean them really good with a water sprayer, to get off all the roots, clean out the hydro system, put fresh water in the system, and dump a large bottle of 3% peroxide in the res, and run the system. Hydrogen peroxide is h202, water is h20. After a bit, the extra oxygen molecule radicalizes and the peroxide turns into water. I'll let it run for a few days before I put clones in again, just to make sure the beneficials have had a bit of time to recolonize.

sweet sounds good

What do you guys think about using square buckets and higher quality bulkheads to make this system more leak proof? kind of like the undercurrent system. :friends:

Also, people are always saying you need a chiller with biobuckets and i dont understand why. Is it because the pump heats the water up as it passes through it or what? Because its externally mounted I don't see why peeps cant keep rez temps under control. My bio/dwc hybrid stays at 68*F and my pump is in my rez (albeit its not a 1200 gph one)

So, can this system be run without a chiller???

 

[kp^]

sweet sounds good

What do you guys think about using square buckets and higher quality bulkheads to make this system more leak proof? kind of like the undercurrent system. :friends:

Also, people are always saying you need a chiller with biobuckets and i dont understand why. Is it because the pump heats the water up as it passes through it or what? Because its externally mounted I don't see why peeps cant keep rez temps under control. My bio/dwc hybrid stays at 68*F and my pump is in my rez (albeit its not a 1200 gph one)

So, can this system be run without a chiller???

I have not seen 5 gallon square buckets.... but a good idea.. maybe im blind tho.. so many pots in my local hydro shop.

To maybe help answer your questions about a need for a chiller with bio buckets..... Most people need a chiller because the ambient temps are too high, or there is bad air flow and the room is too hot.. etc etc... So thus there water temps get to high depending on the temps inside and outside the grow space. ventilation + a cold source for your rez and you've got an idea spot. As long as water temps throughout your cycles/grows stays below below 80F your in great shape! I know you wanna keep your water cold in hydro which helps with O2.

Cheers and happy growing!