Beldia ( local) in Morroccan.

[Psy_explorer]

Great response , as you pointed out, here what we are discussing how a plant is discover , rediscovered and discover again, partly cause , there is an atomistic view of the arab and islamic world. The Almoravides, and the Almohads were in fact berbers.But keep in mind that this not the case for the Al-Idarisi dinasty, and the Umayyads, that were Arabs, not berbers,and were the first islamic arabs that entered the Iberian peninsula after the unsuccessfull uprising against the Abasi caliphate and the migration westerly to the Magreb region.Being the Nazari kigdom the last of a long period of islamic preponderance in “Spain” until 1492, to understand the inmense impact and the arabic cultural influx one should remember that those who migrated westerly, entered the peninsula in 711, and declared an independed caliphate ( Cordoba)from Bagdad, capital of the Abasí, after the change of Damascus.

In conclusion , what I was trying to expose is , that apart from the berbers, Cordoba (and the rest of Al Andalus ),being the capital, was is connection to middle east, the andalusi people travelled around through north Africa, easterly and westerly and archeological evidence suggest that, not only cannabis was know but smoked as well, as early as 900-1000 c.e.

Here I add some webpages like the Alhambra Museum , that expose the archeological evidence of pipe cannabis use before the Colombus exploration, and the clear allusion of Ibn-al Jatib,that was late in comparisson with the findings around Granada and so on.

http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/pipas-nazari

And this is a paper of a scholar adressing the hashish use in Al-Andalus.

https://www.academia.edu/1314324/Aproximacion_a_los_origenes_del_consumo_de_hasis_en_Al-Andalus


Greetings from the Mediterranean.

 

[Psy_explorer]

I am working on a time machine that will teleport a person back in time. I just need one brave individual to volunteer as my first human test subject. Of course, you will be responsible for your return to present times.

Nice sativa bro

 

[Psy_explorer]

But Hempy Mcnoodle , you are right buddy, at the end,who cares... if they carried with them the plant or not.

So... after the whole terrible sermon I just posted, I will smoked a good afghan and sleep!!!!
May all the readers forgive me

 

[therevverend]

Here I add some webpages like the Alhambra Museum , that expose the archeological evidence of pipe cannabis use before the Colombus exploration, and the clear allusion of Ibn-al Jatib,that was late in comparisson with the findings around Granada and so on.

If the webpage from the Alhambra Museum is correct, it would be incredible because no pre-Columbian pipes have been found outside of Africa. And in Africa only the two pipes have been found and they're a bit of a mystery. The website says that pipes were 'common' between the 11th and 15th century and references a couple writers on hashish in the Arab world. The pipes were discovered in 1914 so they've been around for a while. The most likely scenario is that the museum made a mistake. And the pipe design does seem Mexican. It's also possible they don't realize the enormity of their discovery. I don't speak Spanish, if you can find any other sources or email the museum I'd appreciate it. I've found all sorts of references to 'smoking' pre-Columbus but they're either a mistake or involve braziers, or incense burners, or cups with burnt seeds in them, usually a mix including hemp. It's possible they found the pipes in 1914, labeled them pre-Columbian, but never tested for age.

Aside from Arabs, hashish, pipes, and the rest, what interests me most is where the Moroccan landrace strain originally came from. I've read that it's 'similar' to Lebanese strains, and it's similar to Turkish strains, but we know how cannabis can adapt. The similarities could be an adaptation cannabis strains make in dry hot Mediterranean climates. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually descended from a hemp strain. Lots of candidates and since Phylos proved to be a scam it leaves us without genetic testing. Those Phylos Phuckers really fucked everyone since it'll be that much harder to collect samples and attempt a similar experiment, especially since everyone expects to be scammed.

 

[Psy_explorer]

The discovery is amazing and my mind is leaning toward the possibility you,ve mentioned. They might not be aware to the importance, or maybe the orthodoxy research didn’t incorporated these findings. Not only several pipes have been found in Granada, rather so many across Al Andalus in general. I have several official ethnography and archeological museum webpages ( I will post them here)that estimate and dated a millenia old, and also stated that were made in Spain( this is based among others characteristic in the glazing and the pigments that were used to cover the clay, that according to the researchers , show clear sign that these are arab artefacts not meso american).


But yes, my interest and the aim of the initial post is to find soooomething about the moroccan landrace. Maybe as you mentioned, has its ancestors in hemp. Modern Spain was literally invaded by hemp before prohibition , so does not seem inpossible for small group to start to show some THC, maybe the same happened in the Rif, I am more inclined to believe, that morrocan landrace is connected to Turkish, Lebanese and Persian strains.I didn’t know the issue with phylos...what a shame.

 

[troutman]

I am working on a time machine that will teleport a person back in time. I just need one brave individual to volunteer as my first human test subject. Of course, you will be responsible for your return to present times.

Got any pics?

 

[musigny23]

Khalifa Genetics collected theirs in Chefchaouen province. Ace got theirs from the Ketama area. Khalifa specifically searched for older growers with old seed stashes which probably also meant low generation rates and popping a lot of seeds to get a workable number of plants.

They both did test growing, stressing, and selection before doing their seed runs so it isn't "landrace" really. I guess you would call it heirloom.

 

[Psy_explorer]

Thanks musigny, I have already check both seedbanks, they seem quite nice.
Selection is also made in the original terroir by generations and generations of growers, so for me at least a heirloom is equall to a landrace. Maybe there are technic or semantic differences but in any case I don't consider a landrace a wild cultivar.

 

[musigny23]

Thanks musigny, I have already check both seedbanks, they seem quite nice.
Selection is also made in the original terroir by generations and generations of growers, so for me at least a heirloom is equall to a landrace. Maybe there are technic or semantic differences but in any case I don't consider a landrace a wild cultivar.

Well, not all small traditional tribal farmers do selection. There is wide variation of practices. I don't think there was a lot of selection in Morocco of the "Beldia".

The main difference between landrace and heirloom is landrace seeds are actual seeds collected in their home terroir. Heirloom seeds are derived from landrace seeds grown elsewhere, outside of their place of origin. That begins to matter after generations are grown away the original region and the plants begin to adapt and change to the new conditions.

 

[Psy_explorer]

Well, not all small traditional tribal farmers do selection. There is wide variation of practices. I don't think there was a lot of selection in Morocco of the "Beldia".

The main difference between landrace and heirloom is landrace seeds are actual seeds collected in their home terroir. Heirloom seeds are derived from landrace seeds grown elsewhere.

I think you are right in relation to the moroccan landrace, there are several factors that contribute to the possibility that little selection was made, at least on purpouse.

Cant wait to spring time to get some seedlings of this variety

 

[therevverend]

It gets confusing because Ace sells Khalifa seeds on their website and they both call their strains 'Beldia'. I'd never heard kif plants called Beldia before. Guess you need to call it something to differentiate it from the new strains everyone's growing now. Had a look at both strains, I'd take the Khalifa one although the Ace variety looks more 'authentic'. As in, even scraggier and more ruderalis. The Khalifa is more likely to contain Afghan genetics, bigger resin size and frostier. Or it could be a different breed, hard to say.

Boy oh boy it'd take a lot of those little plants to make a kilo of hashish. Can't blame the Moroccans for wanting better yielding stuff. The benefits of the old kif strain is that it uses very little water and fertilizer. Although in the pictures I've seen from the 80s the plants looked very yellow, looks like they didn't get much of either. The new hybrid and Afghan type strains use more water and fertilizer. (Although the weather is similar to the West Coast of America. Plenty of rain in the winter if you know how to store it) Afghanistan is also dry and hot, I've seen plenty of Afghan plants that were extremely low maintenance drought resistant. Something like Deep Chunk. Or Purple Urkle for a more common one, you certainly don't need to grow a plant 10 foot tall. In many ways you're fighting nature in a drought-prone environment growing big plants, all that water and food going to make branches and leaves is a waste. In some ways it's come full circle. When I visited a buddy who's doing a legal state grow in eastern Washington, the climate almost exactly like the Rif, he was light depping his plants immediately. Keeping them 4 or 5 feet tall at the most. He was asking me about Auto strains, looking for stuff that finishes as fast as possible. Since his crop was going for concentrate as opposed to flower. The more things change..

It's interesting how many years it took for the foreign strains to finally dominate the region. From the 60s to the 90s lots of growers were bringing in new genetics. There was so much pollen from the native Kif plants in a couple generations no matter how selective they were the plants would revert. I've read about the huge clouds of pollen from the unculled males blowing across Gibralter into Spain. I'm guessing with the fancy fertilizers, higher yields, and better hash making techniques they cull their males now. May have been the biggest factor in the switch to the new stuff.

The old Moroccan strain has lasted much longer then other landrace strains in other places. For the reason my commercial legal friend is looking for quick flowering genetics. You can pull off two crops, a 'light dep' type Auto early crop with little water and irrigation to get through August and September when money is tight. Then a 'main run' harvest of Afghans and hybrids in Late September through November. If the weather turns bad in autumn, if there's a drought, or whatever, there's still backup. As long as you have the space to do it.

Of course the Moroccan landrace is still endangered, not just from being replaced by the newer stuff. Lots of collectors have saved seeds, the genetics themselves aren't in danger but it's in danger of becoming a museum piece. Like a lot of the old Columbians and Thais. Once the traditional use for a strain is lost it turns into something else and is no longer an active landrace. I wonder how many Moroccans still smoke kif? I saw an article about how to 'score kif' and i got excited only to see it's about hash buying. The author thought kif was the same thing as hashish. This is why I've always hated the word 'kief', especially the verb 'kiefing'.

The real reason the kif plants are mostly gone, there's no longer a demand for kif. People are forgetting what the original word meant. 'Buds'. I'd guess Moroccans don't smoke buds anymore, it's all hashish now. I'd also guess a lot of what the original kif plant was selected for, sweet tasty flowers, has changed drastically over the last 60 years. Instead the selection has been for earliness and hashish making, the opposite direction. The best kif was grown with natural fertilizers and plenty of water. The hashish was the opposite, allowed to go thirsty and dry out to produce more resin and to make the resin easily removable. What we're seeing now is the final result of a long process that started when the first Europeans came to Marrakesh looking for trips and kicks.

 

[subrob]

Look for medtree seeds. Don't think he hangs out here much anymore, or any forum, but he can be found on IG... I know he was working w some beldian land race, making hybrids, I've got some. Don't know if they have been publicly released yet

 

[Psy_explorer]

It gets confusing because Ace sells Khalifa seeds on their website and they both call their strains 'Beldia'. I'd never heard kif plants called Beldia before. Guess you need to call it something to differentiate it from the new strains everyone's growing now. Had a look at both strains, I'd take the Khalifa one although the Ace variety looks more 'authentic'. As in, even scraggier and more ruderalis. The Khalifa is more likely to contain Afghan genetics, bigger resin size and frostier. Or it could be a different breed, hard to say.
.

I didn’t know that the one that ACE sells is originally from khalifa seeds, I saw they share some indians landraces an so on, maybe they collaborate.
As you said we cant blame the locals, is the market. But anyways , even thought the hash is smoked but a lot of locals, is not very approved by old people and more importantly by law. Cannabis platations are legal or are at least in a legal limbo, the plantations in Chefchauen are just...incredible everywhere, and what you can see are white widows, orange buds( maybe this is not used any more) and a lot of critical, mainly. With certainty we could say that some are smoking “ kiff” from these foreing strains, is not ilegal like the hashish, which is percieved as an intention to trade or smugling.

The thing is, are the seeds available coming for farms far enough or from farm with a high and clear density of local plants? Hard to know I guess.
I suspect that if Angus from the real seeds does not sell it, maybe is cause is really hard to find the real sativa, taking into account that they sell very remote and rare strain, and their qualitie is quite good,specially being Chefchaouen at 4 or 5 hours drive from Spain.
Kiff smoking , which is just cannabis flowers with tobacco,will be consumed in northen Atlas (included the Rif subsistem) will continue to happen, maybe is time to go there and share something thay might need, as exchange for seeds.
Greetings

 

[Psy_explorer]

Look for medtree seeds. Don't think he hangs out here much anymore, or any forum, but he can be found on IG... I know he was working w some beldian land race, making hybrids, I've got some. Don't know if they have been publicly released yet

Thanks dude, they are not selling it at the moment I think.
Until today I found ACE and Khalifa seeds

 

[musigny23]

I didn’t know that the one that ACE sells is originally from khalifa seeds,

Ace has their own version sourced from the Ketama area. Their website also sells Khalifa Genetics and their version is from a remote farm in Chefchauen.

So there are two different but presumably very similar "Beldias" being sold on the Ace site. Khalifa also sells directly through their own site if you email them.

 

[Psy_explorer]

Ahh ok now I see. Thanks musigny.

 

[Psy_explorer]

I think they might be the same, the company is collaborating lately with some local seed collectors.
Last week I tryed some pure and authentic Rif hash, blondish sandlike.
There are still great plantations overthere.

 

[ahortator]

They talk about Pre-Roman pipes found in Spain in the book PLANTAS MEDICINALES: EL DIOSCORIDES RENOVADO of PIO FONT QUER. If I remember well there is even a drawing of one of those pipes.

Common Spanish hemp until the 80's certainly had some plants whose main cannabinoid was THC. After THC tests in plants was developed, and the mandatory use of only certified (mostly developed in France) strains, hemp landraces became lost.

Psychoactive properties of old Spanish hemp was known in Spain since many centuries ago. But its use was frowned by the Catholic Church, so it was discouraged. Church and laws destroyed most of the old knowledge. Mexican natives discovered it too, only a few decades after the introduction of hemp in Mexico.

https://youtu.be/k_oN9rOBQg8

https://youtu.be/3mSI42YeJ20

https://youtu.be/O_BbEASJgAA

 

[funkyhorse]

So the jesuits knew exactly what they were doing when they brought hemp to South America.

It is very interesting to see history repeating itself in the opposite way, 400 years ago while a branch of the central power represented at the time by Catholicism was prohibiting it all over Spain and even were fighting wars for it, another branch of that power called jesuits in the land they conquered and ruled made it not only legal but one of the pillars of their economy
In the 21st century. while in the central empire cannabis has been made legal and the empire cashing multimillions of dollars out of it, the same central empire is still fighting medieval wars with their agencies on the lands they rule in order to keep it prohibited

At the end of the day, 400 years ago and today is same thing, prohibitions and wars are just business

 

[musigny23]

I think they might be the same, the company is collaborating lately with some local seed collectors.
Last week I tryed some pure and authentic Rif hash, blondish sandlike.
There are still great plantations overthere.

Ace and Khalifa each offer Beldia, so in that respect they are the "same". As I explained, they were sourced from different farmers from different parts of the Rif many kilometers apart. They aren't from the same source so that means there will be some difference. Each of them grew seeds they obtained and made selections to produce the seeds they sell. They will have a lot in common but won't be identical. Probably enough difference that it is discernible.