Basic genetics explained

[Morcheeba*]

i think being able to see data on each plant would allow you to look for any similar traits in the the plants that work best for you as an individual. as for me i choose my medicine on what gives the best relief from sever spasms, not the most tasty, and it would be nice to see data on the plants i consume, and not just thc / cbd level.

if i ever get to work w/ large populations i would not smoke very many if any of them b/c my goal would be to collect data from a lab. besides im not qualified to run any part of a breeding program or support lab/s but i can dream.


peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

you would need to smoke or consume some to find out which one worked the best against your particular type of pain. i guess once you see the terps and thc cbd levels on the perfect plant, you could start to use that as the sample, but you might miss other phenos that would help you even more with different terp profiles, unless you consume them all. in the end we don't know exactly how each terp has the effect it has, is it the combination of certain terps, or the presence of certain individual terps? or is it the other active ingredients combined with certain terps? in the end the non scientific method of just using each one will give you the best info imo. you could sure use the numbers to help you, but without the user test, i'd think, you run the risk of losing special individuals?

 

[KiefSweat]

the analtyical numbers don't necessarily translate to whats the best herb to smoke. You may want something thats 8% total for the head but if your growing to make oil you want genetics that can produce 3x that amount for production purposes.

The way I see it you still need to have the eye for selection and know what good plants are. the data is somewhat worthless if you can't interpret it.

Lab testing is expensive if you don't own the equipment. Current rates are probably close to $150 for cannabinoid and terp profiles. A few dozen plants will cost a few grand to profile. It would be more advantages to test the plants in another manner then send the ones that are selected off for testing

 

[Dropped Cat]

Lab testing is expensive if you don't own the equipment. Current rates are probably close to $150 for cannabinoid and terp profiles. A few dozen plants will cost a few grand to profile. It would be more advantages to test the plants in another manner then send the ones that are selected off for testing

I find burning my cannabis an effective way to determine traits I select for.

 

[Johnnyseed]

I find burning my cannabis an effective way to determine traits I select for.

Smoking the herb is your BEST TEST

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If you run just 10,000 it will take quite a while to smoke them all unless you smoke many many different samples a day, not such a good way to test to see the differences and find the best. 30 samples a day for one year would do it.
No one does this. What I would do is use analysis assisted breeding with a GC for cannabinoids and terepenes and an eye and nose to help winnow the varieties down that had to be smoke tested. Then smoke the top few hundred. It can be done.

-SamS

 

[CLePToKiD28]

^^ Always wondered if breeders were using gas chromatography to make selections. You have answered a question I didn't remember having until you mentioned. Thanks for the perspective, Sam.

 

[Infinitesimal]

Not everyone knows or even cares to know how to select for genotype. How do you make them care when they can find plants they're damn happy with without all that mumbo jumbo? People have limits and can work with them rather than just hang it up. Think of poor people using cheap meats to make incredible stews. Small time breeders can perhaps perform similarly. The notion that if they aren't aware of specific terms or read this book or that that they aren't equipped is soundly disputed by decades, centuries even, of evidence to the contrary.

Maybe there will be two camps, 'genotype breeders' and 'phenotype breeders', I'm not sure thats necessarily a bad thing, all things considered. People have basically been breeding for phenotype the last 15 years and they're generally happy with the results.

Who has been doing large scale breeding that has had commercial success? Shanti? I'm not certain on the specifics of the size of his operation and I love his genetics but look at most of the grows on here. Not many big ops running MNS gear. More often clone only's of the same 3-4 families of genetics.

Do hobby ("phenotype") breeders need to know certain specifics if they are likely working with lines that originated from elite clones or, to follow the theoretical commercial breeder I talked about, buying from professionals producing high quality lines? They're going to pick the best pheno anyway and likely do 1:1 matings so genotype is not their first concern generally.

The lines most work with today have high GCA so you're likely gonna get something good, whether it is the 'best' is a whale of a different color. Anyway, they gravitate to individuals anyhow so if they grow another line that produces a better 'best' than they drop the old one in favor of the new and in that sense they breed for genotype and the whole train keeps moving.

Just spit balling here... good stuff fellas.

all good and valid points... I am not saying people shouldn't breed unless they can do it X, Y or Z way... only maybe that they are amateurs then... and should sell their product as such or not at all. (do you want to eat stew the rest of your life???? )

take a look at most of those having success (beyond commercial success, I mean those who consistently make seeds that produce beyond average results in terms of quality) and then look at the genotypes they use.

I could use cooking as analogy, plenty of people can follow a simple recipe from a cook book using the same ingredients/measurements and similar tools and techniques and most will produce some good food. but if you want something different, something complex, something refined, something extraordinary and beyond good... you may have to go to restaurant with a real chef who builds dishes and designs menus from scratch with the knowledge and skill to do so in a manner that your average person hasn't dedicated themselves to being able to accomplish.

I think that is the difference... and there is a market for both affordable good homestyle food and ultra professional expensive fine dinning. the problem with people making simple hybrids all using the same genotypes that pass on their traits so heavily and so easily is that buyers are being sold meatloaf at 5 star fine dining prices... generally... across the market place, figuratively speaking.

Your discussion of numbers etc I think will lead you to reach the conclusion that I have: growing the large numbers necessary for transgressive selection is trivial compared to evaluating those large numbers accurately.

mofeta

I think that is very true, but you can't have one without the other... and I think the more people you try to involve in the process your higher likely hood of someone not having the knowledge base/skill set to evaluate the data correctly.

Sacred seeds was me alone, a few friends helped with plants from my seeds, that I had access to, I did all the breeding. The story you read was just made up.

And Mofeta,
Can you name the results of crowdsourced Cannabis varieties? To me the highest examples of Cannabis breeding in recent times were the papers by
Etienne DeMeijer
"The Inheritance of Chemical Phenotype in Cannabis sativa L."
http://www.genetics.org/content/163/1/335.full.pdf+html
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/163/1/335

Euphytica (2005) 145: 189–198
DOI: 10.1007/s10681-005-1164-8 C
Springer 2005
The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L. (II):
Cannabigerol predominant plants

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ativa_L._(II)_Cannabigerol_predominant_plants

Euphytica (2009) 165:293–311
DOI 10.1007/s10681-008-9787-1
The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L.
(III): variation in cannabichromene proportion
E. P. M. de Meijer · K. M. Hammond ·
M. Micheler

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...(III)_variation_in_cannabichromene_proportion

The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L.
(IV): cannabinoid-free plants
E. P. M. de Meijer Æ K. M. Hammond Æ
A. Sutton
Euphytica (2009) 168:95–112
DOI 10.1007/s10681-009-9894-7

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...nnabis_sativa_L._(IV)_cannabinoid-free_plants

Etienne's thesis "Diversity in Cannabis" was real interesting, but not breeding.
Compare anything crowd sourced breeding work to the above works, they are not even close to the same level of work. Maybe someday, but to me it is like cooking, to many cooks can spoil the soup. Especially if some cant cook....
-SamS

They are not books, only the Diversity in Cannabis was a book.
All the others are journals the first is the link to get the first, I added links for the rest.
-SamS

thanks for adding the links Sam, I wonder if I could find those paper in hard copy... I am assuming they were published?

if not I may need to go buy a printer... reading a screen gets hard on my eyes.

 

[Betterhaff]

I would venture to guess that a lot of the hybrids coming from quality breeders are somewhat heterozygous yet dominate for desired traits (unless the desired trait is recessive). Breeding by phenotype with these could create things all over the board, not to say good things can’t be found.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Sacred seeds was me alone, a few friends helped with plants from my seeds, that I had access to, I did all the breeding. The story you read was just made up.


-SamS

G`day Sam

That catalogue would be where people got the notion Sk had Thai in its breeding ?
Though they do credit Sacred Seeds .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[rhinoman 1]

Hey Elmer, G'Day maybe Thia was a better selling point than just Mexican Dom .

 

[ozza]

I have seen M8 first hand

 

[rhinoman 1]

And what's your take on it?

 

[NEGT1]

I think we'll see more people breeding specifically for chemotype over anything else. Which, as much as people hate on "pollen chuckers", that's pretty much exactly what they do. Breed OG's with OGs, OG's with Chems, Chems with Chems, Chems with Whites, Whites with OGs, ect. Bred for chemotype over a lot of other things. I think that's partially why s1's are now accepted.

The amount of home breeders breeding for chemotype can't be understated here. Let's not act like people keep duds...Quality is kept in mind, always...

I also kind of wonder why breeders take shot at breeders who release s1's, even exclusively. Let's not act like the same breeder who hates on s1's is giving out his or her pollen / male clones....as if money isn't in mind. Come on...

 

[Only Ornamental]

I think we'll see more people breeding specifically for chemotype over anything else. Which, as much as people hate on "pollen chuckers", that's pretty much exactly what they do. Breed OG's with OGs, OG's with Chems, Chems with Chems, Chems with Whites, Whites with OGs, ect. Bred for chemotype over a lot of other things. I think that's partially why s1's are now accepted.

I see what you mean... though strictly spoken, you'd be actually wrong. See, chemotype means 'what' (for example CBD chemotype) and not 'how much' (e.g. Cannatonic v.s. fibre hemp, both CBD chemotypes). Most breed for the 'produces much type' by crossing what you suggested . Concerning mono-/sesquiterpenes (or taste and smell), likely most varieties are not of a specific chemotype, cause this would mean they contain mostly one specific constituent... Nitpickingly, there would be a pinene and myrcene type (at a rough estimate both make up maybe 80% of all commercial cannabis stains... which means they don't count as a chemotype because they are the norm) and there's several hemp varieties rich in beta-caryophyllene. Nonetheless, people seldom breed for those 'pure' chemotypes but for mixed types (that's where the really nice flavours come from).


PS I got to answer some older posts too... I'm a bit behind schedule, sorry Rasputin .

 

[Infinitesimal]

I think we'll see more people breeding specifically for chemotype over anything else. Which, as much as people hate on "pollen chuckers", that's pretty much exactly what they do. Breed OG's with OGs, OG's with Chems, Chems with Chems, Chems with Whites, Whites with OGs, ect. Bred for chemotype over a lot of other things. I think that's partially why s1's are now accepted.

The amount of home breeders breeding for chemotype can't be understated here. Let's not act like people keep duds...Quality is kept in mind, always...

I also kind of wonder why breeders take shot at breeders who release s1's, even exclusively. Let's not act like the same breeder who hates on s1's is giving out his or her pollen / male clones....as if money isn't in mind. Come on...

you are wrong on all counts...

the time, knowledge and effort invested in identifying a superior male genotype is not even comparable to simply making S1 seeds.

people keep shitty plants all the time, most commercial clone only plants are just high yielding, short flowering... average weed. So no quality is not always kept in mind, universally, for most people the bottom line is all that matters. Quality over quantity is truly the exception. (and this includes OG's and Chem's)

inbreeding is not breeding for chemotype, breeding for chemotype takes laboratory analysis and..... progeny testing... something pollen chuckers don't do. that is the only way to know what chemotypes a male plant passes on to his daughter plants.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hmm...
Infinity, maybe he's right but not the way you think . See, several (many?) who name themselves breeders don't feel much about lab and progeny testing. That's why they make S1's thinking all's well trallalla and how practical (thank you marketing!) the buyers think the same too LoL.
Besides, chemotype testing is not strictly difficult; smoke a joint and you'd know if its THC or CBD (more or less... CBD could also be low THC) or smell the bud and know the flavour. But again, the trick is often not the 'what' but the 'how much' and for that you'll need some sort of test.

Anyway, there's quite the discrepancy between what's sold by the big and mighty ones, what's done by the small ones with a big ego on one or a big heart on the other side, and what 'genetics' (or rather crop science) suggests should/could be done.

 

[NEGT1]

you are wrong on all counts...

the time, knowledge and effort invested in identifying a superior male genotype is not even comparable to simply making S1 seeds.

people keep shitty plants all the time, most commercial clone only plants are just high yielding, short flowering... average weed. So no quality is not always kept in mind, universally, for most people the bottom line is all that matters. Quality over quantity is truly the exception. (and this includes OG's and Chem's)

inbreeding is not breeding for chemotype, breeding for chemotype takes laboratory analysis and..... progeny testing... something pollen chuckers don't do. that is the only way to know what chemotypes a male plant passes on to his daughter plants.

HAHA. I love that you state it like it's factual, "You are WRONG on ALL ACCOUNTS!" as if anyone, let alone you, has it down to a science. I don't know who gave you the mic, but to take such a definitive stance on something that clearly isn't definitive, makes me question why you take the stance. Let alone question the actual stance you have.

If we want to speak truth, "true breeders" put out commercialized strains more so than the boutique breeder, but according to you i'm wrong. People who buy seeds will pick big yielders over the opposite....which leaves mediocre quality..so many things are spun out of proportion here. I mean heck, "true breeders" can't even agree on what is definitive. Lets move on and get over ourselves as breeders of cannabis.

 

[NEGT1]

And another thing. How does a breeder know what someone wants to grow? He or she takes 5 years to "create" a strain for what? To sell to a very small portion of the community? What about mutants? Isn't that where progression really happens? So why all the chat about stability?

At this point, and I have no problems with it, "breeding" is just as much marketing. I know that is going to piss off a lot of people here.

The end goal of "stability" often brings mediocrity as a bi product. Again, my opinion. That's what I mean by marketing. If they're not really that stable, and don't live up to a clone only, wtf are we doing? Oh yeah, looking for the mutant! So where does that leave us? Looking for mutants, not stability.

 

[OakyJoe]

And another thing. How does a breeder know what someone wants to grow? He or she takes 5 years to "create" a strain for what?

The Breeder knows what he wants Its not really about what others want in my opinion