Balancing Soil Minerals

[milkyjoe]

Here is the thing. When you make a batch of say1/3 peat, compost and whatever it is going to be a fairly low pH...it is going to be well short on base cations. For example you are going to need 7 lbs or so of Ca...so like 17.5 lbs of caco3.

When you chuck that in the soil it does not immediately break down into ions and exchange for H on the cec sites. You are going to have free lime in your mix until microbes break it down. And that takes interaction with the plant...it can take up to 3 grows in the case of caco3.

So if you chuck and measure you are not gonna get an accurate reading at all. You are fooling yourself. That is why it is better to get the soil test before amending...at least you know the starting point. Even worse with the paste test...until you get microbe activity you are always gonna measure low

Least that is how I see it

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

Excellent thread. Thanks m_astera!
Here is a logan labs report on Santuary Soil Empire Builder.
http://sanctuarysoil.com/2011/empire-builder/

View Image

The owner of the company uses your book and claimed that I would get the best logan labs test out of any bagged soil.

Told a friend this statement and he decided to try it out. My experience with coco is that it appears to function like a sponge almost as if it binds stuff up. I really love the stuff, but man do

Looks to not be balanced, excess p k and not enough calcium, and lacking traces. Sulfur and sodium are also high. Medium is coco coir and have seen the coco needing a flush due to excess salts.

Have you found any bagged soils or pre-made potting mixes to be balanced??

Just curious. Are those numbers from a "cooked" soil?

 

[milkyjoe]

Here is my opinion of coco. When you measure pH right out of the bag it is nearly neutral. That means the cec sites are already full with base cations. The question then becomes is it balanced...and no. It is high K, low Ca.

Personally I would not touch the stuff. It seems like it ties stuff up because the K gets taken up over Ca. And without Ca take up a bunch of other stuff does not come along for the ride

 

[leadsled]

For the 1:1:1 soil mix, if following cootz recipe I would add everything except the crab shell, gypsum, and maybe leave out the neem until you do a soil test, the rock dust and kelp are not going to add significant amounts of available minerals but they do add those ultra trace minerals that are not tested for on a standard soil test.

I use 1:1:1:1 of top soil, compost, peat moss, and rice hulls. I have a good local source of plant based compost, if I did not have quality compost I would drop the compost to 10% of the mix and increase the top soil. I use top soil mostly for the clay content, but I test my top soil source prior to purchase just as I do the compost. It's also important, if you're testing your top soil prior to purchase, to ensure the top soil company is sourcing all their top soil from a single source rather than whatever construction site has top soil to move.

As for testing, I wouldn't leave out the paste test, it's not much more money and tells you a lot about what antagonisms you're having in the soil and what you may want to foliar feed during the grow until the excess and/or pH are slowly corrected. Some minerals can be leached out of the soil if there is an excess however some can not be leached as effectively.

Will ask rather than assume. But appears the order of mixing is to first bring up calcium.

You follow that order of amending to bring base saturation of calcium up to 60% before adding gypsum?

Have you found plant based compost to be lower in potassium???

Local spot has some real nice compost made from organic vegetable waste.

Recommendation to me, was to do the Paste test during the growing season rather than right off the bat.
That way you get a better idea of the plant soil interaction and how that is working.

Few different soil analyst recommends top soil as base. Wish there was good top soil in my area.

Excellent information all around. Thanks for sharing. Going to make it easier to make a balanced mix with all this sharing of knowledge going down.

hey bro thanks i dont have a soil test. im a guerilla grower and this was my first time trying organics,but i had some awesome results and from here on out im gonna be growing my headstash the organic way. i did almost water only this year. i just fed bat guano and insect frass ever 2 weeks in flower and im very satisifed. im gonna try his mix this year and see whats up. i will be using worm power ewc,and coast of maine lobster compost.

Welcome. Happy to hear you got good results.

fyi, Out of tests I have seen, build a soil mixes have an excess of K. I have only seen a few tests.
Jeremy has stated he does not think it is possible to make a mix with proper levels of K.

Here are the results from his recent test of the LOS mix. aka clack mix. See how it has excess sodium and potassium. Adding more compost will add more K.

Looks like the mix got some trace minerals from the rock dust. That had not been my experience with DTE glacial rock dust.
I had to add the sulfates to bring up the trace levels.
8000lbs per acre calcium. Gotta love that.

Highly suspect this mix is going to yellow out some plants ime.
Sodium is excessive for starters.

Shows with some tweaking can be better. Could not find the report on the oly mtn compost.

Just curious. Are those numbers from a "cooked" soil?

Sanctuary claims that the soil is "cooked" aka composted for a year. Test was done with ther soil right out of the bag.

I posted it up so people wont get taken for a ride.
Not to endorse the product.

Sometimes growers are lazy and do not want to do the work of sourcing and mixing soil. Well that can bite you in the ass.
Learn from experience or learn from others mistakes.

Just in case the owner states it is balanced. He sure talks it up. The test explains why there are so many bad reviews of the soil.

One plant has already took a shit and yellowed out.
We will see how it turns out for the grower. He should have waited but jumped the gun on planting in that salt fest.

Here is my opinion of coco. When you measure pH right out of the bag it is nearly neutral. That means the cec sites are already full with base cations. The question then becomes is it balanced...and no. It is high K, low Ca.

Personally I would not touch the stuff. It seems like it ties stuff up because the K gets taken up over Ca. And without Ca take up a bunch of other stuff does not come along for the ride

Coco is also very inconsistent as far as K levels. Found this out with lab testing.

Grower uses Jr peters lab and then tests the nutrient mix and the runoff.
After testing different containers and even the same bag of coco from the same manufacturer. All had different in K levels.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

Sanctuary claims that the soil is "cooked" aka composted for a year. Test was done with ther soil right out of the bag.

I posted it up so people wont get taken for a ride.
Not to endorse the product.

Sometimes growers are lazy and do not want to do the work of sourcing and mixing soil. Well that can bite you in the ass.
Learn from experience or learn from others mistakes.

Just in case the owner states it is balanced. He sure talks it up. The test explains why there are so many bad reviews of the soil.

One plant has already took a shit and yellowed out.
We will see how it turns out for the grower. He should have waited but jumped the gun on planting in that salt fest.

Makes perfect sense. Looking at the website and the test I can see why there would be issues. I'm assuming the "business" strategy is for people to purchase other products to compensate the lack of relevant components.

I've been seeing this strategy quite a bit. Fox Farm IMHO really brought this approach to the mainstream from the get go. Advanced Nutrients took it to a whole new level. And that seems to be the focus nowadays. Marketing over Quality.

Nice Labels vs. Quality. Use reds on the labels to distract from the black print.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

Here is my opinion of coco. When you measure pH right out of the bag it is nearly neutral. That means the cec sites are already full with base cations. The question then becomes is it balanced...and no. It is high K, low Ca.

Personally I would not touch the stuff. It seems like it ties stuff up because the K gets taken up over Ca. And without Ca take up a bunch of other stuff does not come along for the ride

Are you referring to the bagged stuff? I've never worked with it, and I know only what I've read on here and on other greenhouse sites (not related to cannabis)

My understanding is the bagged stuff is pre-charged with liming agents.

 

[HL45]

Sub bump tagged

 

[milkyjoe]

Will ask rather than assume. But appears the order of mixing is to first bring up calcium.

You follow that order of amending to bring base saturation of calcium up to 60% before adding gypsum?

Have you found plant based compost to be lower in potassium???

Local spot has some real nice compost made from organic vegetable waste.

Recommendation to me, was to do the Paste test during the growing season rather than right off the bat.
That way you get a better idea of the plant soil interaction and how that is working.

Few different soil analyst recommends top soil as base. Wish there was good top soil in my area.

Excellent information all around. Thanks for sharing. Going to make it easier to make a balanced mix with all this sharing of knowledge going down.



Welcome. Happy to hear you got good results.

fyi, Out of tests I have seen, build a soil mixes have an excess of K. I have only seen a few tests.
Jeremy has stated he does not think it is possible to make a mix with proper levels of K.

Here are the results from his recent test of the LOS mix. aka clack mix. See how it has excess sodium and potassium. Adding more compost will add more K.

Looks like the mix got some trace minerals from the rock dust. That had not been my experience with DTE glacial rock dust.
I had to add the sulfates to bring up the trace levels.
8000lbs per acre calcium. Gotta love that.

Highly suspect this mix is going to yellow out some plants ime.
Sodium is excessive for starters.


View Image

Shows with some tweaking can be better. Could not find the report on the oly mtn compost.



Sanctuary claims that the soil is "cooked" aka composted for a year. Test was done with ther soil right out of the bag.

I posted it up so people wont get taken for a ride.
Not to endorse the product.

Sometimes growers are lazy and do not want to do the work of sourcing and mixing soil. Well that can bite you in the ass.
Learn from experience or learn from others mistakes.

Just in case the owner states it is balanced. He sure talks it up. The test explains why there are so many bad reviews of the soil.

One plant has already took a shit and yellowed out.
We will see how it turns out for the grower. He should have waited but jumped the gun on planting in that salt fest.



Coco is also very inconsistent as far as K levels. Found this out with lab testing.

Grower uses Jr peters lab and then tests the nutrient mix and the runoff.
After testing different containers and even the same bag of coco from the same manufacturer. All had different in K levels.

Even though it is not what I shoot for jeremy's mix grows some damn fine cannabis. When he opens a bag...well damn.

It works because of insane biology. The microbes themselves act like cec sites for both cations and anions.

Given a little time and microbe support, like say what MM suggests and that soil will balance itself out. I don't understand it but I watching it happen in a 3 light room we experiment in

 

[trichrider]

Will ask rather than assume. But appears the order of mixing is to first bring up calcium.

You follow that order of amending to bring base saturation of calcium up to 60% before adding gypsum?

Have you found plant based compost to be lower in potassium???

Local spot has some real nice compost made from organic vegetable waste.

Recommendation to me, was to do the Paste test during the growing season rather than right off the bat.
That way you get a better idea of the plant soil interaction and how that is working.

Few different soil analyst recommends top soil as base. Wish there was good top soil in my area.

Excellent information all around. Thanks for sharing. Going to make it easier to make a balanced mix with all this sharing of knowledge going down.



Welcome. Happy to hear you got good results.

fyi, Out of tests I have seen, build a soil mixes have an excess of K. I have only seen a few tests.
Jeremy has stated he does not think it is possible to make a mix with proper levels of K.

Here are the results from his recent test of the LOS mix. aka clack mix. See how it has excess sodium and potassium. Adding more compost will add more K.

Looks like the mix got some trace minerals from the rock dust. That had not been my experience with DTE glacial rock dust.
I had to add the sulfates to bring up the trace levels.
8000lbs per acre calcium. Gotta love that.

Highly suspect this mix is going to yellow out some plants ime.
Sodium is excessive for starters.


View Image

Shows with some tweaking can be better. Could not find the report on the oly mtn compost.



Sanctuary claims that the soil is "cooked" aka composted for a year. Test was done with ther soil right out of the bag.

I posted it up so people wont get taken for a ride.
Not to endorse the product.

Sometimes growers are lazy and do not want to do the work of sourcing and mixing soil. Well that can bite you in the ass.
Learn from experience or learn from others mistakes.

Just in case the owner states it is balanced. He sure talks it up. The test explains why there are so many bad reviews of the soil.

One plant has already took a shit and yellowed out.
We will see how it turns out for the grower. He should have waited but jumped the gun on planting in that salt fest.



Coco is also very inconsistent as far as K levels. Found this out with lab testing.

Grower uses Jr peters lab and then tests the nutrient mix and the runoff.
After testing different containers and even the same bag of coco from the same manufacturer. All had different in K levels.

I imagined that this was what it was all about.
needing the actual soil minerals ie: dirt, sand, gravel, dusts of same.
I was lucky enough to find myself in western Washington, where we have Tokul soil ( http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_035681.pdf ).
also I have a ball mill to render soil to dust/flour.

do I have this tested prior to milling so I could add whatever it was short on?

or should I add the organic matter that will constitute a more balanced end result..

or add the OM after milling?

I've been collecting molehills for this very purpose. (base)

I can mill the soil to flour and add it to my worm bins to kick-start some goodness.

thanks for your good advice.

 

[xmobotx]

watching it happen in a 3 light room we experiment in

i have been interested in this experiment all along MJ. my guess would be that while following a recipe & going for it works nicely applying the living soil paradigm; a balanced mixture w/ the same principles applied should represent an improvement.

i could see the results being neutral or climate/micro-climate dependent too

obviously, a living soil container must operate in temperatures conducive to the micro-life {~65* to ~85*} which is why i say that

 

[milkyjoe]

Definitely climate dependent. K ain't no big thing indo...outdoor completely different story. But you find the truth outdoors

 

[neverforget4/20]

Definitely climate dependent. K ain't no big thing indo...outdoor completely different story. But you find the truth outdoors

M joe why is it that K is no biggie indoors?

 

[reppin2c]

K is a biggy every time. Your balanced or you arent. The reason why jeremy from build a soil says you can't build a soil with out high K is because he uses the same thing over and over then expects different results. How do soil companies get acceptable K levels? They don't use off the charts K compost. Soil microbes can help but damn they aren't gonna convert 15% K into Ca. I love the LOS guy about page 7 that thinks his way is the only way. It's almost as bad as religion. You can stay in your rut or look over the furrow for something better. Keep learning things peeps

Also the soil with the highest microbial population is a balanced one

 

[milkyjoe]

K is a biggy every time. Your balanced or you arent. The reason why jeremy from build a soil says you can't build a soil with out high K is because he uses the same thing over and over then expects different results. How do soil companies get acceptable K levels? They don't use off the charts K compost. Soil microbes can help but damn they aren't gonna convert 15% K into Ca. I love the LOS guy about page 7 that thinks his way is the only way. It's almost as bad as religion. You can stay in your rut or look over the furrow for something better. Keep learning things peeps

Also the soil with the highest microbial population is a balanced one

So in spite of the fact the ll report shows 10% k you claim 15...while arguing facts matter. Fuckin pathetic.

K does not matter as much indoors cause you get to control the environment and that means cell wall strength is not as important

Don't get me wrong...I aim for 3-4% k. But talking shit about other people while flat making up numbers is a chickenshit thing to do

 

[oti$]

I'm stoked to be learning some things and am grateful for the knowledge. Thanks for sharing fellas

 

[reppin2c]

Joe-I have the test to prove 15%. Make it up no. I respect your knowledge and I know he's your homeboy and shit but I'm not making up anything. I stand up for my friends as well. I did the same nutes this year and mixed it myself and came up at 6%. Then amended. Not talking shit, doubled what i did last year. I respect what you have to say most times, this time I have to disagree. Less important K percentages, ya maybe. But think what your missing out on something...bank 8 weeks plus on less then par numbers. I'll pass. Bash me if you must but I don't say a damn thing unless it's true. I'll buy bag soil with closer numbers at a higher price and spend the time at the lake any day...and still look like a hero. I'm no chicken shit or yellow belly but I learn from my mistakes

 

[DarthFader1]

Hi Mr Astera,

Thank you very much for stopping in and spreading some of your knowledge i know it is much appreciated by many people

I also bought your Ebook and have really enjoyed the content so far.

Back to page 4 now to keep reading great thread!

best regards
darth

 

[polyflowerbud]

thank you Michael sir.. sincerely

 

[milkyjoe]

Joe-I have the test to prove 15%. Make it up no. I respect your knowledge and I know he's your homeboy and shit but I'm not making up anything. I stand up for my friends as well. I did the same nutes this year and mixed it myself and came up at 6%. Then amended. Not talking shit, doubled what i did last year. I respect what you have to say most times, this time I have to disagree. Less important K percentages, ya maybe. But think what your missing out on something...bank 8 weeks plus on less then par numbers. I'll pass. Bash me if you must but I don't say a damn thing unless it's true. I'll buy bag soil with closer numbers at a higher price and spend the time at the lake any day...and still look like a hero. I'm no chicken shit or yellow belly but I learn from my mistakes

Sorry...I posted drunk and was an asshole. I don't buy soil either. I was going by the test rpt a couple pages back not even thinking you had a test.

No reason not to believe you. Again, sorry

 

[ValleyKush]

Now hug amd make up!

But seriously- there should be a smiley forcing 2 smileys to hug.

Even more seriously- I understand the idea of not needing as much indoors because of a less harsh enviroment, but doesn't any imbalance effect overall health in general? Not just hardyness but quality of end product? Maybe I misunderstood milkys point.