Are Seeds, pollinated before stress, insulated from stress?

[Betterhaff]

^^You’ve sparked my curiosity. What about the resulting genetics? Did Guys 1 & 2 ever do a side by side with each other’s seeds compared to the ones they made? Like did Guy 1 grow the seeds he made next to Guy 2’s seeds in his own environment/conditions and vice versa. If so, what were the results? I know environment can affect the resulting phenotype from the same genotype but does this have any effect on the genetics in a mating (in a non-selective breeding scenario)? I understand phenotype has some bearing on selection but isn’t understanding the genotype the key to selective breeding? This really shouldn’t come into play here (?) because both Guys were working with the same parent stock.

I’ve always thought this would be a fun experiment. Let’s use the above example but give each Guy a batch of the same seed (as stable as can be) and tell them come up with their best after 6 breeding cycles. Or give them identical clones for more of a control. My bet would be the end results would be quite different. Of course the subjective selection criteria used by each would also come into play here.

 

[Emeraldo]

Stress is a weird thing, some plants are more prone to it, others are not. Some plants are just flat out hermies from the get go.

Paraphrasing the questions I think you are asking.

“Is a fully pollinated plant making seeds insulated from stress and producing nanners?”

It may be. It may just be more stable. The real test would have been to see if it stressed prior to being pollinated.

“Are seeds produced prior to showing stress insulated from carrying the trait?”

You have to remember that seeds from an M/F mating will have 50% of the females genetics, if the female pollinates itself it will be 100%.

So, even if seeds were made prior to the plant stressing the genes will still be there to some degree, yet not all seeds may carry what is responsible for the stress related nanners.

As mentioned earlier, the only way to know is to grow them. And you also don’t really know what the male is bringing to the table. I would lean toward the one that didn’t show nanners but that doesn’t necessarily mean the seeds from Chrystal will all be nanner prone.

And yes, hot roots no bueno.

Thanks for your Betterhaff-thoughts. The male was also Nirvana Chrystal, from the same batch as the other three sisters. I chose him because he shot up from seed, strong, and responded very quickly to 12/12. He produced a huge amount of pollen. I shook him directly over and into Sister 2 in my above scenario. She was drenched in his pollen, and she reacted almost immediately. Wow, I was experiencing this for the first time, I never wanted to make seeds, but this was fascinating.

So the male pollenator of my two seeded plants was a strong healthy and virulent specimen of the Nirvana Chrystal variety. I would think that would be a positive when it comes to making seeds, right?

 

[englishrick]

I never saw the resulting plants as there grows are black opp type grows. Such a shame we don't live in a legal country

Il write something more later.

 

[Emeraldo]

The seeds you made will have the genetics just as the mother where some will be more prone to hermies, if the father isn't prone then it will tolerate stress better. ...

My explanation would be, depending where the seeds were in their development there could be an affect on the embryos that could make them more prone to stress, my gut tells me that what genes are there are there and the only thing you would be worried about is the quality of the seed, if the seed quality has been jeopardized then you are more likely to start with stress plants as they have less to them if they haven't suffered greatly then likely it is a small setback to the seeds development and nothing more.

Selfed seeds from hermie plants would be more likley to have hermies from stress as it is in the genetics more so than a male x female due to the fact it only has the mothers genetic pool in it.

Please correct me where I am wrong, it would be great to understand this more.

Limegreen

Thanks. The seeds look pretty normal in terms of color and size. The mother who made them was a vigorous healthy plant all the way through to chop. She never showed any male flowering and was fully dedicated to seeds. The father was also strong and vigorous (I cannot know if he had the hermie gene). I will look forward to growing from these seeds! Thanks to all for your help!

Emeraldo

 

[englishrick]

I never knew that, englishrick. So cannabis in the wild is basically self-pollinating, both female and male. It is us humans, as breeders, who try to get the two sexes to stay distinct so that we can cultivate sinsemilla. Hermies are naturally there. It's not like the plant is sick if it tries to push out a male flower and make seeds.

From what I've heard the word hermaphrodite is not applicable to cannabis. Apparently it's more accurate to call it Monoecious as the sexual organs appear on different parts of the plant and not in identical spots

Yeh. It seems we as breeders create the total divergence in the sexes. To be able to grow Sensi..plants that grow both male and female sexual organs will be considered to have a higher level of fitness in the wild. That's why the traits try's to raise its head in our grows. In the eyes of a plant the best outcome would be to breed. So that's why it happens. We as breeders actually try to breed for a specific type of sterility to have unseeded weed.

 

[englishrick]

I believe you hit the nail on the head of the here mr betterhaff,,,it's during mating and even cloning (a-sexual) reproduction that environment can manipulate the code that gives rise to phenotype. Think about how pathogens may effect reproduction.. Single point mutations are happening all the time ,,sometimes the code corrects itself but sometimes it does not and variations continue to grow ,,this actually helps with heterosis when reproduction is in play. So it's advantageous for plants to change there code especially when dealing with lines that self pollinate

 

[Emeraldo]

From what I've heard the word hermaphrodite is not applicable to cannabis. Apparently it's more accurate to call it Monoecious as the sexual organs appear on different parts of the plant and not in identical spots

Yeh. It seems we as breeders create the total divergence in the sexes. To be able to grow Sensi..plants that grow both male and female sexual organs will be considered to have a higher level of fitness in the wild. That's why the traits try's to raise its head in our grows. In the eyes of a plant the best outcome would be to breed. So that's why it happens. We as breeders actually try to breed for a specific type of sterility to have unseeded weed.

The odd thing in my scenario is: The plant that put out nanners in increasing numbers in its last week had been partially pollinated and has produced a good number of seeds on two or three branches. I guess the plant wants to be fully pollinated, not satisfied with half a loaf.

 

[Emeraldo]

I believe you hit the nail on the head of the here mr betterhaff,,,it's during mating and even cloning (a-sexual) reproduction that environment can manipulate the code that gives rise to phenotype. Think about how pathogens may effect reproduction.. Single point mutations are happening all the time ,,sometimes the code corrects itself but sometimes it does not and variations continue to grow ,,this actually helps with heterosis when reproduction is in play. So it's advantageous for plants to change there code especially when dealing with lines that self pollinate

I was asking about this very point in my opening thread, so glad we finally drilled down. Yes, it's at the point of pollination that environment can impact the mechanics of reproduction and thus influence consequential development, that all makes sense. But after pollination has been successful and seeds are set, isn't it more difficult for environment to impact their genetic material? Isn't there some innate protection afforded seeds by their structure? They are exposed to the cooling breeze, shaded by leaf material, maybe heat doesn't have much chance to damage them. Or not.

 

[Betterhaff]

I was asking about this very point in my opening thread, so glad we finally drilled down. Yes, it's at the point of pollination that environment can impact the mechanics of reproduction and thus influence consequential development, that all makes sense. But after pollination has been successful and seeds are set, isn't it more difficult for environment to impact their genetic material? Isn't there some innate protection afforded seeds by their structure? They are exposed to the cooling breeze, shaded by leaf material, maybe heat doesn't have much chance to damage them. Or not.

Once the deed is done, the genetics are somewhat fixed. Mutations from a sexual sense would most likely occur during the replication phase of the meiotic process yet the chances of a beneficial (or deleterious) mutation are very, very low. Environment could play a factor, a pathogen like englishrick mentioned, a chemical mutagen, something that caused an anomaly with division or pairing, etc.

There can be mutations that occur during mitosis but this would be at the single cell level so their impact wouldn’t be as significant as a mutation that occurred during meiosis, followed by pollination and the creation of a zygote. The zygote, being a single cell would then carry the mutation, as it divides via mitosis, in all cells.

 

[englishrick]

I get the feeling we have met before Mr Betterhalff. Am I correct. ?

So what do you think. Large seeds vs small seeds.. ? ..Hydro made seeds vs soil made seeds. Interesting isn't it?

It reminds me of chapter three from Allard "evolution during domestication and chapter 9 "evolution during cultivation"

What are your thoughts

 

[englishrick]

Just noticed this on your profile page Mr Betterhalff

Compliments of our mutual friend Kopite

I thought it deserved a repost. Thank you Mr Kopite. You have never stopped taking me to school .

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120411132214.htm

 

[Betterhaff]

If we’ve met, it’s been on the boards, my screen name has always been the same. My profile page, lol, I rarely go there other than to post/read an occasional PM or visitor message. I don’t really pay too much attention to all the extra stuff this site has to offer (maybe my mistake).

As to your question, large seeds/small seeds? hydro/soil? I’m not sure I understand. Are you referring to your example of Guys 1 & 2? There have been many discussions about seed size here and at other sites. That article from Kopite is interesting and I remember it, I think Sam also made reference to seed size being a maternal control. I was also in that camp but after a pollination I did I had to scratch my head. I selectively pollinated a single female (same plant, not clones) with 6 or so males and seed size was all over the place. Seeds from certain males were large and from other males smaller. And this was regardless of the places the branches were on the plants, ie large seeds on branches above and below a branch that produced smaller seeds.

So does hydro produce large seeds and soil produce small (if you are referring to the Guys)? I don’t know, maybe with the parent stock used in that situation. My gut tells me even though the seeds were different sizes the resulting genetics should be similar. That’s why I asked about the grow out.

In one of your posts you mentioned too bad this plant is illegal…you got that right. I would love to be able to go full bore with experimentation for many aspects of this plant.

 

[englishrick]

True. It's a ball ache I cant do this as a profession .

Have you ever seen statistics on women who smoke during pregnancy and how they make fatter baby's than women who don't

I'm sure something is different in seeds made in hydro culture as aposed to seeds developed in a soil baced medium. I'm guessing it's something like evolution during domestication or cultivation. It leaves me scratching my head

This idea basically stemmed from the first time I saw ssh seeds from the greenhouse black packs back in 99. They were the largest seeds I had ever seen.

Over the years I have noticed hydro produces larger calaxs than soil (provided it's a low feed soil grow)

 

[Betterhaff]

I’m a dirt farmer and I’ve made some pretty big seeds. Now would these seeds be bigger if the pollination was done in a hydro grow? Would the genetics be different? How about the resulting plants grown out? To me these are the important questions. I’ve done pollinations of the same plants both outdoors and indoors with similar results, in soil. I haven’t noticed a difference in the resulting crops.

I wonder if women who smoke during pregnancy also eat more?

 

[englishrick]

True. Important questions. .unfortunately I have no idea of the answers. ..

I know some lines seem more suitable for hydro than soil and vica verca. .just no idea what effect the environment has during repoduction.

I guess chemical reversal is one major example of environmental factors modifying repoduction. Granted it rather different from epicgenetic change

 

[Betterhaff]

I guess chemical reversal is one major example of environmental factors modifying repoduction. Granted it rather different from epicgenetic change

Or how about manipulating reproduction. I kept thinking about your statement and I’ll probably be thinking about it all night, lol. Got to run.

 

[englishrick]

That's cool. Let me know what you come up with ...ideas a what I live for ...take care dude. Keep the visions coming. Chat soon

 

[Betterhaff]

OK, I slept on it. You are manipulating the plant’s reproductive mechanisms but you are not really modifying them or the plant. In other words the plant is not modified totally but is manipulated for that event. Sometimes this stuff can make your head spin.

Here’s some reading, I believe it’s from 2012’ish.

http://www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/pcp/specialfocusissue_plant_epigenetics.html