Are Seeds, pollinated before stress, insulated from stress?

[Emeraldo]

I simply could not find any info anywhere on my question. Looking for your experience.

I seeded a healthy-looking female at 8 weeks, three weeks into flower. She is Chrystal from Nirvana Seeds. The male was a very vigorous multi-plenti-pollinator.

Chrystal developed beautifully, strong, nice compact pheno, no problems. A beauty to behold. Chrystal at its finest. Until the heat when she was 4 -5 weeks into flowering. Then the nanners. But I jump ahead.

Now Chystal had two sisters, relevant here only as comparisons. Sister 1 was my top favorite of the three plants in terms of growth potential and formation. Sister 2 was my number two choice. The first turned completely hermie after the heat wave in July. Ergo chop Sister 1. "Served her right," thought Chrystal secretly to herself. He-he.

Now I seeded both Chrystal and Sister 2 BEFORE the heat. I left Chrystal to flower because only one of her many branches was pollinated (pollen in bag method). But Sister 2 was fully, and I mean fully and completely, pollinated at 3 weeks into flower. Sister 2 was vigorous and continued to flower a little even after pollination, but that soon faded and she produced 500 seeds and more. The seeds are now fully developed and look good, nice and dark and stripey, but I'm getting ahead again.

When the heat came (after pollination), it produced a hermie in one plant, Sister 1, and, on Chrystal, a male seed pod appeared in week 6 and then more and more little nanners in later flowering, week 8-9. Sister 2 (fully dedicated to seeds) never showed any male flower growth at all. She was fully occupied making seeds to flower any more.

So I have seeds from a plant dedicated exclusively to seeds, and I have seeds from a plant that was only partly pollinated and later produced nanners. Both plants were pollinated and seeds had fully formed before the heat.

Nanners are said to be a sign of genetic instability. This leaves me wondering which seeds, if any, might be usable.

Are seeds pollinated and set before the stress occurs somehow insulated from the hermaphroditism caused by heat stress? Does the fact that a plant has gone fully to seed protect its genetics from damage that might occur from moderate heat stress?

I break that question down now into two parts. Are my seeds from Chrystal more likely to be tainted than from Sister 2? That was my thought at first, but it could also be a straight yes or no situation.

As for Sister 2, does that fact that a plant is not flowering and has fully gone to seed afford the seeds, when they are already set and fully formed, some kind of protection against genetic damage from heat stress?

So my question is:Are seeds, once set, protected or insulated from moderate stress?

Given the choice, which of my plants' seeds would you use next year: Seeds from the plant that had nanners from heat stress occuring after pollination, or seeds from the plant that was taken out of the flowering business at a young vigorous age before the stress occurred and quite simply produced no more flowers?

Thanks for your experiences.

 

[MJPassion]

Run a batch of each...
Then you will know how the stress affects the plants. At least those two plants.

 

[englishrick]

I'd say there might be an epicgenetic reaction to stress at any time during a seeds development. If a plant can reverse then the progeny may have the ability too. The trick in making progeny tolerant to environment and not reverse in your desired conditions is your choice in parents and your choice of environment .. Ever noticed the sizing of seeds and what caused them to be small or large?

 

[Emeraldo]

Run a batch of each...
Then you will know how the stress affects the plants. At least those two plants.

Thanks MJPassion, that is what I will do.

 

[Emeraldo]

I'd say there might be an epicgenetic reaction to stress at any time during a seeds development. If a plant can reverse then the progeny may have the ability too. The trick in making progeny tolerant to environment and not reverse in your desired conditions is your choice in parents and your choice of environment .. Ever noticed the sizing of seeds and what caused them to be small or large?

Thanks englishrick. Are you saying (not sure what "epicgenetic" means) that the ability to reverse and produce nanners was in Chrystal's genetics -- that she inherited that ability -- and the heat just brought out that response? So her progeny will probably have the same ability.

I guess the fully seeded plant that never showed any nanners may have the same ability to reverse, epicgenetically, but I'll never know unless I give those seeds a try.

Last year I grew three plants from the same batch of seeds as this year. They all turned out beautifully with no nanners. Last year I veged those plants for 8 weeks (this year only 5 weeks). Last year I germinated in June and induced flowering in early August, this year germinated in May and went to flowering in mid June. Both years flowering was 60-61 days and the weather was hot.

Do you think how I am growing them, time of year, length of time in vegetative growth (shorter this year), has anything to do with it?

Thanks again!

 

[Emeraldo]

...The trick in making progeny tolerant to environment and not reverse in your desired conditions is your choice in parents and your choice of environment .. Ever noticed the sizing of seeds and what caused them to be small or large?

One more question, englishrick. I've not grown seeds before, just had a few sort of by accident when I didn't get the males out soon enough.

So are you saying the heat could've stunted the development of the seeds?

Should I take only the largest, darkest looking seeds for next year?

 

[englishrick]

Epicgenetics is when the environment shapes expression and then dna seems to have memory about it.

For example. .if identical human twins are born and separated at birth. One smokes cigarettes and the other does not. The one who smokes might produce children with health issues. The health issues may continue down the line of the smoker twin but not of the non smoker

Epigenetics is the study of how our environment effects development and how that effects future coding and expression

 

[englishrick]

It's a theory of mine that larger seeds are fundermentaly different to smaller ones and not just in size. ..but that's my personal theory. .nobody knows the difference really. ..it seems to me that when a plant is given desirable environment seeds do seem enlarged compared to when they are given non desirable environments

 

[englishrick]

Canna plants seem to respond to cues. Most canna will reverse given the right conditions or cues. Landrace canna naturally self polinates. It's us selectively breeding that has caused the divergence of the sexes. .if we choose parents that refuse to reverse the progeny will tend to nor reverse also. This is in an inbreeding senario

When outcrossing it's also possible to mask the reversal trait in a recessive state. Inbreeding will bring recessive traits to the surface. .when inbreeding it is possible to create a true dio line. But as it stands cannabis generally is not entirely dio and sex can be a matter of expression

 

[MJPassion]

It's a theory of mine that larger seeds are fundermentaly different to smaller ones and not just in size. ..but that's my personal theory. .nobody knows the difference really. ..it seems to me that when a plant is given desirable environment seeds do seem enlarged compared to when they are given non desirable environments

Please expand on this topic.
Might be an interesting topic with it's own thread.
I'm curious as a baby that's just become self mobile.

 

[MJPassion]

My theory on your original question is that the line already had the traits in them to throw nanners.

Your timing to throw pollen was just fine.
I don't think your veg time will have any affect.

It appears that you are on a roof top.
Does your grow space get random light polution from say... passing vehicles or the like? Light polution could easily screw up your gals if it's random. However, if it's fairly consistent, such as street lighting, the plant would have to have extreme sensitivity to it, in my experience.

Far as your heat is concerned,
It's not the likely cause if your growing outdoors. But... it could be if your not protecting your roots ftom the blazing hot sun & they're becoming overheated.

There are too many variables to point at a single cause & come to the conclusion that it IS the cause.

 

[Emeraldo]

Canna plants seem to respond to cues. Most canna will reverse given the right conditions or cues. Landrace canna naturally self polinates. It's us selectively breeding that has caused the divergence of the sexes. if we choose parents that refuse to reverse the progeny will tend to nor reverse also. This is in an inbreeding senario

When outcrossing it's also possible to mask the reversal trait in a recessive state. Inbreeding will bring recessive traits to the surface. .when inbreeding it is possible to create a true dio line. But as it stands cannabis generally is not entirely dio and sex can be a matter of expression

I never knew that, englishrick. So cannabis in the wild is basically self-pollinating, both female and male. It is us humans, as breeders, who try to get the two sexes to stay distinct so that we can cultivate sinsemilla. Hermies are naturally there. It's not like the plant is sick if it tries to push out a male flower and make seeds.

 

[Emeraldo]

My theory on your original question is that the line already had the traits in them to throw nanners.

Your timing to throw pollen was just fine.
I don't think your veg time will have any affect.

It appears that you are on a roof top.
Does your grow space get random light polution from say... passing vehicles or the like? Light polution could easily screw up your gals if it's random. However, if it's fairly consistent, such as street lighting, the plant would have to have extreme sensitivity to it, in my experience.

Far as your heat is concerned,
It's not the likely cause if your growing outdoors. But... it could be if your not protecting your roots ftom the blazing hot sun & they're becoming overheated.

There are too many variables to point at a single cause & come to the conclusion that it IS the cause.

Thanks for the additional input, MJPassion.

I agree, both Sister 1 and Chrystal threw nanners. Sister 1 was so bad I chopped her. Chrystal was chopped yesterday after I decided it was time. She was throwing more and more nanners, I must've plucked 20 of them. Sister 2 was gone to seed 6 weeks ago.

What you see in the photo is a terrace to the apartment. it is pretty high up on a hillside. No busy streets nearby. No pollution.

But more importantly, light outside is bright sunlight during the day. To induce the plants to flower, I bring the plants inside to a darkroom for purposes of 12/12, or maybe more accurately, 11/13 (sunlight/pitch darkness). I tried to keep the dark time consistently at 13 hours this year, very little variation, and no light leaks in the dark room. So I would exclude light pollution and light leaks.

The sun can beat down on the terra cotta tiles on that terrace during the afternoon in July, and those tiles can get much warmer than the 30 C air temperature. My theory was that the root system of the plants was seriously affected by the heat on the tiles. I don't know if that is true, but I've read that the root system is very important and it seemed to follow that excessive heat on the roots might trigger the reversal to hermie or nanners.

Next year I will put a pallet under the pots, so that air can flow and maybe they will not get so hot. Also, I will keep the plants off the hot part of the terrace during the hottest part of the day.

I agree there are lots of variables, but I will try to improve the situation next year. I will start off fresh genetically with some new seeds as well.

 

[englishrick]

I never knew that, englishrick. So cannabis in the wild is basically self-pollinating, both female and male. It is us humans, as breeders, who try to get the two sexes to stay distinct so that we can cultivate sinsemilla. Hermies are naturally there. It's not like the plant is sick if it tries to push out a male flower and make seeds.

I'm not sure if male landrace naturally grow calaxs and self polinate. .good question. .

But Yeh. "so calld female inderviduals" do seem to self polinates in landrace lines as a standard . We as selective breeders move lines to be more on the solid dio side

The question still remains. ..is canna mono ,diocious, trioceous or is it autosomal activities that cause landrace to reverse naturally

 

[Betterhaff]

Stress is a weird thing, some plants are more prone to it, others are not. Some plants are just flat out hermies from the get go.

Paraphrasing the questions I think you are asking.

“Is a fully pollinated plant making seeds insulated from stress and producing nanners?”

It may be. It may just be more stable. The real test would have been to see if it stressed prior to being pollinated.

“Are seeds produced prior to showing stress insulated from carrying the trait?”

You have to remember that seeds from an M/F mating will have 50% of the females genetics, if the female pollinates itself it will be 100%.

So, even if seeds were made prior to the plant stressing the genes will still be there to some degree, yet not all seeds may carry what is responsible for the stress related nanners.

As mentioned earlier, the only way to know is to grow them. And you also don’t really know what the male is bringing to the table. I would lean toward the one that didn’t show nanners but that doesn’t necessarily mean the seeds from Chrystal will all be nanner prone.

And yes, hot roots no bueno.

 

[englishrick]

For eradication of the reversal trait the most efficient way is selfing and not m/f breeding.

In fact xx "female seed" my be less likely to reverse than m/f seeds if the sole parent doesn't have it as a dominant or recessive trait..

 

[Emeraldo]

I'm not sure if male landrace naturally grow calaxs and self polinate. .good question. .

But Yeh. "so calld female inderviduals" do seem to self polinates in landrace lines as a standard . We as selective breeders move lines to be more on the solid dio side

The question still remains. ..is canna mono ,diocious, trioceous or is it autosomal activities that cause landrace to reverse naturally

Right, it's likely to be only the females that self-pollinate in the wild.

Still you raise a very interesting point I had never heard. Landrace female will self-pollinate and produce seeds that would likely be feminized, am I right?

If so, then that next generation of feminized are genetically speaking totally focussed on getting knocked up by geniune pollen? I mean, second and third generation inbreeding -- is that something the plant has excluded by producing feminized?

 

[Limeygreen]

The seeds you made will have the genetics just as the mother where some will be more prone to hermies, if the father isn't prone then it will tolerate stress better. I would imagine that the stress that induced your hermies may have little affect on those seeds but the selfed seeds obviously would be more prone over all. I don't know enough about genetics to give a firm answer, just an opinion so please take it with a grain of salt.

My explanation would be, depending where the seeds were in their development there could be an affect on the embryos that could make them more prone to stress, my gut tells me that what genes are there are there and the only thing you would be worried about is the quality of the seed, if the seed quality has been jeopardized then you are more likely to start with stress plants as they have less to them if they haven't suffered greatly then likely it is a small setback to the seeds development and nothing more.

Selfed seeds from hermie plants would be more likley to have hermies from stress as it is in the genetics more so than a male x female due to the fact it only has the mothers genetic pool in it.

Please correct me where I am wrong, it would be great to understand this more.

 

[englishrick]

Landrace populations should be large. If numbers are not high enough to preserve biodiversity the genetics will bottleneck causing a slide towards extinction and sterility. At the stage where inbreeding depression sets in the only thing left to save the population is mutation.

If a plant self polinates and the trait is advantageous, then the trait will perpetually pass from one generation to the next. I wouldn't call a plant that can self naturally "female" or say the progeny is feminised. I'd call it a form of A - sexual repoduction. the indervidual may be monoceous or trioceous maybe diocious with inactive autosomes (who knows) . ..I wouldn't call canna a solid dio aka male or female genepool. The divergence of the sexes is only possible in situations that deem it advantageous. You can basically mold it into what you like if you know the right methods for shaping a genotype and the biodiversity is available

 

[englishrick]

Yeh . It's been something I have obsessed about for a long time. It steams from when my friends have made seeds at separate locations but with the same parents. . Guy 1 polinates the top parts. Guy 2 uses the same polen but in another grow and polinates lower parts. Guy 1 is hydro the other is soil. The hydro guy uses 600w lights the soil guy used 400w lights.

Hydro seeds are massive in size, the bio seeds are much smaller. ....what is the difference? Other than size.

It's baffled me for years.

The concept of epicgenetics during domestication was something I couldn't shake in this instance