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Application of Nano PLC In A Growroom
- Thread starter imnotcrazy
- Start date
bump.
Need to decide on control options and PLC would be groovy, but I can only do it if it can vary the speed to my AC induction vent fan motors.
Anyone know how I do that with a PLC? I could drive an encoder physically attached to a Speedster or similar, but that can't be the simplest solution here.
Stay Puft
Member
My 2 cents...
Do you really need variable (analog) control of fan speed?
I would suggest that you only need maybe 3-4 states. (full-on, reduced speed1, reduced speed 2, and Off)
I can give you this with - 3 relays,2 speed controllers (triacs) and the commitment of three (digital) I/Os' from your PLC.
But if you need analog we can do it too..it will cost ya thou! {you will need an analog out]
Reagrds,
Puft
Do you really need variable (analog) control of fan speed?
I would suggest that you only need maybe 3-4 states. (full-on, reduced speed1, reduced speed 2, and Off)
I can give you this with - 3 relays,2 speed controllers (triacs) and the commitment of three (digital) I/Os' from your PLC.
But if you need analog we can do it too..it will cost ya thou! {you will need an analog out]
Reagrds,
Puft
A multiple discreet steps fan speed control could work, I suppose. A lot more wiring snaking around with 3 or 4 speed controllers.
I have found that what I need is called an AC Drive or Variable Frequency Drive. I've found several, but all seem to output 230V 3 phase. But these fans are 120V single phase. I'm assuming they are not easily compatible. I know my DC, but AC never stuck and I get a little lost when multiple phases enter the picture.
I'm starting to think I'll leave PLC for an upgrade project so I don't lose time on it now. Just get a couple GroZone Temp-2V's for now.
I have found that what I need is called an AC Drive or Variable Frequency Drive. I've found several, but all seem to output 230V 3 phase. But these fans are 120V single phase. I'm assuming they are not easily compatible. I know my DC, but AC never stuck and I get a little lost when multiple phases enter the picture.
I'm starting to think I'll leave PLC for an upgrade project so I don't lose time on it now. Just get a couple GroZone Temp-2V's for now.
You can make your fan 2 speed with a few simple items:
SPDT Thermostat
SPDT relay 120Vac coil(US)
A "Diac-Triac" type fan speed controller; usually referred to as "solid-state" KB electronics makes the one that I use.
You use the thermostat hardwired with a single phase supply. The thermostat switch will apply power to the relay coil.
Wire a 120Vac supply to the NO or NC terminal at the relay and attach the output of the fan speed controller to the other terminal.
The fan hot leg gets wired to the Common terminal of the relay.
Also, Hardwire and DO NOT SWITCH the Neutral (white) Wire. It should be connected to wherever the single phase originated from.
You could do the same switching with a PLC like Staypuff was saying but you'd need an Analog type sensor and a PLC that could take an analog input. You'd still need multiple speed controllers to give you different speeds. It would save very little wiring IMO a probably cost a bit more money than to hard wire a few relays.
However, you could go the same route w/ analog input and PLC and design a circuit that could recieve the 0-10VDC output the Analog PLC can provide. But, that's a little above the original scope of the thread, which was to use off the shelf parts so anyone could build these things.
SPDT Thermostat
SPDT relay 120Vac coil(US)
A "Diac-Triac" type fan speed controller; usually referred to as "solid-state" KB electronics makes the one that I use.
You use the thermostat hardwired with a single phase supply. The thermostat switch will apply power to the relay coil.
Wire a 120Vac supply to the NO or NC terminal at the relay and attach the output of the fan speed controller to the other terminal.
The fan hot leg gets wired to the Common terminal of the relay.
Also, Hardwire and DO NOT SWITCH the Neutral (white) Wire. It should be connected to wherever the single phase originated from.
You could do the same switching with a PLC like Staypuff was saying but you'd need an Analog type sensor and a PLC that could take an analog input. You'd still need multiple speed controllers to give you different speeds. It would save very little wiring IMO a probably cost a bit more money than to hard wire a few relays.
However, you could go the same route w/ analog input and PLC and design a circuit that could recieve the 0-10VDC output the Analog PLC can provide. But, that's a little above the original scope of the thread, which was to use off the shelf parts so anyone could build these things.
SaltyBalls
Member
im lost...........this is for grow right?.......... good job i guess
Salty: this control box makes your ballasts run 24/0, switching between two bulbs every 12 hours. With this, I can run 2x lamps as I have ballasts for flowering.
Also, helps to keep you electric load even across a 24 hour period by running 1/2 the flowering lamps at a time.
Also, helps to keep you electric load even across a 24 hour period by running 1/2 the flowering lamps at a time.
wow crazy.
this is something i will def put together when i get my new house here...
thanks for taking the time to throw all that information down on these forums. if i didn't rep you i prolly couldnt sleep at night.. hahaha
jk...
but seriously tho
this is something i will def put together when i get my new house here...
thanks for taking the time to throw all that information down on these forums. if i didn't rep you i prolly couldnt sleep at night.. hahaha
jk...
but seriously tho
indoor.tomatoes
New member
plc questions
plc questions
if you're there and a plc has your atmospheric conditions dialed, and your lights on 12/12 you can spend more time with the plants watering, pruning and checking for bugs/mold. plus you can setup smoke sensor and overheating checks to keep from burning things. also (assuming you can do it well) if you build a whole system yourself with reputable industry-grade componets it will be less failure prone that cheapo, knock, uncalibratable, made in china, plastic hydro-store p.o.s. stuff.
i leave for trips a week or longer from time to time for work now so i'm planning on building up a plc setup pretty soon in my closet. i have my b.s. for mech eng and played around in the lab with analog and digital sensors a bit while i was at school, but i have a few questions before shelling out $200-500 on a controller, sensors and relays. i've read the lot of this thread* and saw someone uses an eaton, an allen bradey, a computer, an SL5/05 (or something like that)
1) any suggested plc's to work with (spec model) and if any can be programmed with block diagrams or ladder logic I'd be better off working with one of those to avoid the whole learning the syntax hurdle. although the eaton tech support sounded pretty killer.
1.5) and sensor recommendations too for temp, humidity, photocell, smoke
2) are there any compatibility issues between sensors and plcs to watch out for?
3) relay ratings appropriate for 600w digital lumatek ballast (the purple one)
4) what can I use to set up variable fan speed with say a "4 vortex or can fan
5) what are the datalogging capabilities of these things like? say tracking temp, hum for starters (also if it turned off for overheat or smoke to indicate why)
6) do the plcs handle multiple conditions at once or do they just keep looping through a list of checks/instructions
alright enough questions...friday night...tequila shots callin' out my name!
later - indoTs
ps. if you'd like to see some of what i learned while i was at school in my late-night/weekend classes check out my thread on canna cabana. i forget the name but it's something like 'white widow 15 gal bucket 400w'. it was just a 1 plant show...but i have to show it off. my first real grow...that one had me hooked from the start.
*i also read these ones and suggest them to anyone who found all of this helpful:
http://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/137251-anyone-here-controlling-your-grow-1.html
http://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/108830-my-computer-controlled-grow-room-1.html
plc questions
if you're there and a plc has your atmospheric conditions dialed, and your lights on 12/12 you can spend more time with the plants watering, pruning and checking for bugs/mold. plus you can setup smoke sensor and overheating checks to keep from burning things. also (assuming you can do it well) if you build a whole system yourself with reputable industry-grade componets it will be less failure prone that cheapo, knock, uncalibratable, made in china, plastic hydro-store p.o.s. stuff.
i leave for trips a week or longer from time to time for work now so i'm planning on building up a plc setup pretty soon in my closet. i have my b.s. for mech eng and played around in the lab with analog and digital sensors a bit while i was at school, but i have a few questions before shelling out $200-500 on a controller, sensors and relays. i've read the lot of this thread* and saw someone uses an eaton, an allen bradey, a computer, an SL5/05 (or something like that)
1) any suggested plc's to work with (spec model) and if any can be programmed with block diagrams or ladder logic I'd be better off working with one of those to avoid the whole learning the syntax hurdle. although the eaton tech support sounded pretty killer.
1.5) and sensor recommendations too for temp, humidity, photocell, smoke
2) are there any compatibility issues between sensors and plcs to watch out for?
3) relay ratings appropriate for 600w digital lumatek ballast (the purple one)
4) what can I use to set up variable fan speed with say a "4 vortex or can fan
5) what are the datalogging capabilities of these things like? say tracking temp, hum for starters (also if it turned off for overheat or smoke to indicate why)
6) do the plcs handle multiple conditions at once or do they just keep looping through a list of checks/instructions
alright enough questions...friday night...tequila shots callin' out my name!
later - indoTs
ps. if you'd like to see some of what i learned while i was at school in my late-night/weekend classes check out my thread on canna cabana. i forget the name but it's something like 'white widow 15 gal bucket 400w'. it was just a 1 plant show...but i have to show it off. my first real grow...that one had me hooked from the start.
*i also read these ones and suggest them to anyone who found all of this helpful:
http://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/137251-anyone-here-controlling-your-grow-1.html
http://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/108830-my-computer-controlled-grow-room-1.html
Indoor.tomatoes: Just saw your post today.....
Even the Smart Relay I used is quite capable of handling all of the functions you describe, which is why I originally chose it. It's basically a P.L.C. in a very small platform.
These are programmable via the LCD back lit screen as I did OR with a PC platform program and patch cable.
I feel if you want to go that route, you should get your hands on a 24Vdc model and 24Vdc power supply. This would greatly expand your sensor options from jump as 24vdc sensors are widely available.
As for relay ratings, I believe the contactors I have used are not capable of handling digital ballasts. I blew up two I had laying around that I was not planning on using any time soon. The first one fire for 12 hours and blew up on the first lamp change. The second one blew up as soon as I applied power (trying to fire the same bulb the first ballast blew up firing).
In my opinion, I feel the mechanical contacts change the output circuit resistance/capacitance enough that in can damage a ballast. Mine were "Digital Greenhouse" ballasts like MD Hydro and HTG sell. Your milage may vary, but do you want to risk a ballast? I do my prototyping on with my equipment or when a friend has something laying around that wouldn't matter if it were damaged/destroyed for these reasons.
Fan variable speed control was discussed and broken down in a previous post, please refer to those Stay Puff and I have it broken down for multiple speeds...
Datalogging is possible I am pretty sure, but I have to check the capabilities of the Smart Relay. Regular SLC05 type are extremely powerful computers in themselves and these and similar PLCs could be set to handle a grow for weeks on end with the proper add ons, including dumping and remix of reservoirs if needed. Obviously you would need to determine the needs of each plant at rez change intervals, but if you had a good regiment down pat with a strain you could "set it and forget it" if you wanted to go that far with it.
They run whatever you can program them for, within the scope of their capabilities. The limit is basically the platform you choose (Smart Relay or full blown multi $1k PLC) and how much you are willing to spend to get there
Hydrostatic
Member
The high frequency output that digital/electronic ballasts produce cause some unexpected results with standard contactors/relays. I ended up having to use 1 contactor for each ballast. I originally had 2 ballasts on each of my flip contactors, but the high frrequency would resonate and make to NO side of the contactor act like a pick-up coil, and never allow the lamp to fully shut off. I also had some issues with striking lamps past 80 feet from the ballast until I isolated each ballasts on their own contactor.
I always Isolate the contactors one per ballast. Are you switching the common leg?
I feel a solid state type high-power relay could work, I just haven't got my hands on another digi to try it with....
Stay Puff used all Solid State parts in his Project Box he built BUT I do not know if he uses digital ballasts or not. Here's a pic of his internals :
I feel a solid state type high-power relay could work, I just haven't got my hands on another digi to try it with....
Stay Puff used all Solid State parts in his Project Box he built BUT I do not know if he uses digital ballasts or not. Here's a pic of his internals :
Hydrostatic
Member
I currently have 65 lamps running off of 40 1kW Nextgens, 2 25kW rooms on a flip, and a 15kW room. I will be scaling up to include an additional 20 1kW ballasts to supply another 15kW room on flip with the existing 15kW and add another 2 20kW rooms. I don't really have the power to go much beyond that, with all of my Fans, pumps, reservoir chillers and AC's running.
The reason I had originally tried to wire 2 ballasts/4 lamps per contactor was purely meant to address some space constraints in my control cabinet, and to save enough room for planned future upgrades (additional flip contactors for additional rooms). I've got a lot of lamp wires crammed into a tighter space than I would have liked. One thing that I really like about the digital/electronic ballasts are the striking distances that they are capable of, I have at least 5 lamps that are over 100 feet away from the ballasts, with less than 12% output loss (still brighter that a brand new coil/core setup at <20 feet away).
The reason I had originally tried to wire 2 ballasts/4 lamps per contactor was purely meant to address some space constraints in my control cabinet, and to save enough room for planned future upgrades (additional flip contactors for additional rooms). I've got a lot of lamp wires crammed into a tighter space than I would have liked. One thing that I really like about the digital/electronic ballasts are the striking distances that they are capable of, I have at least 5 lamps that are over 100 feet away from the ballasts, with less than 12% output loss (still brighter that a brand new coil/core setup at <20 feet away).
Hydrostatic
Member
HT,
Thanks for the offer, but I like build everything that I do myself, that way when something F's up, I have the ability and the know-how to fix it without the downtime one would normally experience when relying on someone else to fix a problem. No offense to you though HT, I'm sure that you do great work, I just like to know everything inside and out that I use, this way I can be on top of everything that I'm running.
HT, I wouldn't mind looking at some of your work, if you have any links available. Also, do you currently have a commercial ticket, valid in BC?
Thanks for the offer, but I like build everything that I do myself, that way when something F's up, I have the ability and the know-how to fix it without the downtime one would normally experience when relying on someone else to fix a problem. No offense to you though HT, I'm sure that you do great work, I just like to know everything inside and out that I use, this way I can be on top of everything that I'm running.
HT, I wouldn't mind looking at some of your work, if you have any links available. Also, do you currently have a commercial ticket, valid in BC?
disfunktional
Member
i cant believe i havent found this thread earlier, subscribed man. iv been following hepheastus' thread on the arduino microcontroller and after finding this thread i was wondering how you think the the plc compares to it? in your opinion which one is easier to use for the extremely new beginner? or is this plc thread just for flip floping of the lights?
disfunktional
Member
i apologize man. i just started from the beginning and now i realize that its for flip flop. could this be set up to monitor/control other functions in a grow?
Hydrostatic
Member
disfunktional,
These Smart Relays can be set up to monitor and control just about anything. They are extremely user friendly and very easy for a novice to get a good grasp of how to get them to do what you want them to.
Once you get the hang of it, you'll wonder how you ever got by with out them.
These Smart Relays can be set up to monitor and control just about anything. They are extremely user friendly and very easy for a novice to get a good grasp of how to get them to do what you want them to.
Once you get the hang of it, you'll wonder how you ever got by with out them.
