Anyone familiar with banking procedures?

[Julian]

so are money orders treated as cash? i know that you cant get one for over 3k but if you lets say deposited 8k in cash and 3k in mo would you get a ctr? or sar?

Money orders are a grey area.....with different approaches and policies it seems for different institutions and business's....

I have heard post office won't issue them blank over $500, (I believe....I don't utilize post office so little interest), but I know 3 different places I could go right now for money orders any amount I like...($6k.....$9k........$25k if I wanted).....I believe one of those would say has to be filled in for any amount, etc...

Likewise as above differs per institution...for example I know one bank which would tell me I have to wait for it to "clear" , same as a check, and have had the conversation that's ridiculous since it is in essence cash....(an individual can call and confirm a money orders authenticity/validity....likewise with certain other checks......but then it is treated at the same time by the above as cash.....(So they call it cash but then tell me in the same breath I haveto wait like a check .....)

Repeat:
An CTR is common procedure and not necessarily a problem.....does not necessarily mean anything at all.....(when I had some IRS issues they came back at some point with a list of transactions I made over $10k (cashed checks...some up to $30k), and response was "yeah, and?, those amounts are included in declared income, so, what's the problem?....what's your point....", and, that was basically that.....nothing else ever mentioned.........

The number of CTR's daily (nation and worldwide) could very well be in the millions.......daily.......millions a day...

if i were to do anything it would be 2k a deposit and no more that 4k a week in a dba or llc bussiness account

Not to be a prick but several have mentioned LLC's.....

1. Why?......does anyone know what they are?, why they are utilized?, why to choose one form over another?.....
2. It is the business which dictates the deposits...not the company structure....

LLC, S Corp, C Corp would not be the starting point of anyone from scratch, and, furthermore, would be better left to some point in the future, and in the process could provide another conversation (with any spoken to)...

The last action of anyone starting a business is "Hey, let's go LLC, S Corp, C Corp..".....makes no sense at all.....does not justify deposits or behavior......

"Ohhhh, he's okay, his tech service deposits a lot of cash but is incorporated so must be legit".....

Ummmmmmm.....No.

(All above are about liability and tax.....and, every step one takes more paperwork for themselves and accountants......)

I would suggest anyone look into all of the above themselves to see the process, the costs, the benefits, etc, before considering such (or ask accountant if one has one, or even if not.........)

also you can deposit money into the atms sometimes it costs more for bussiness to do this but it worth it for them never to see you your just another number

I would disagree.........the transaction itself associates with a name....hence if anything suspicious...would do little good.....

I think it best that all utilize business banking and speak only to the highest position they can when visiting....ie: Stay away from the $8 an hr people altogether.............In simplest explanation: Your a business owner....the last person you want to be speaking to is someone who has never owned one, doesn't understand how to own one, what is involved, and might never want to........

ie: I'm the boss, and I talk with the boss, not being stroked by some entry level employee whom might not know or understand my issues, make a mistake (I actually once had a wire "lost" by an entry level employee....the filled it out wrong), etc, etc....)

Middle and Senior management tend to understand more that your business is important to you...

 

[Kinderfeld]

Fuck banks. Most don't even insure that much cash. Also it just increases the risk for anything to go wrong, no matter what the chances are it is still an increase in risk. Any circumstance could happen, one bad vibe and thats it. Spend $500.00+ on a nice everything proof safe. Problem solved. Not saying put everything in there, have a normal bank account with a normal amount in there as well.

Also remember that even if your deposits aren't looked at what your spending with your debit card, or withdrawing might be, and if you spend a lot more than you should be (they will look at your job, inherritance) etc., they will start snooping you out.

Keep half in bank half in safe.

 

[idea]

there are books available that answer all of these concerns. look for legal texts on know your customer regulations, and books used to train bankers and financial pigs about money laundering issues.

money orders are useful but don't be foolish. the filth look for patterns of things like amount and sequential identification numbering (like buying a bunch of money orders at the same time from the same place - all with sequential numbers - is a good tipoff that something is up). again, there are books on this.

 

[Julian]

Books?.......sure, here's some books....

Money Laundering and Financial Intermediaries

Chasing Dirty Money: The Fight Against Money Laundering

Money Laundering

Crime School: Money Laundering : True Crime Meets the World of Business and Finance

Money Laundering: A New International Law Enforcement Model‎

Money Laundering: A Guide for Criminal Investigators‎

The Law on Money-laundering: Statutes and Commentary‎

Money Laundering: A Concise Guide for All Business‎

Financial Investigations: A Financial Approach to Detecting and Resolving Crimes‎

Financial Investigation and Forensic Accounting

Current Legal Issues Affecting Central Banks By International Monetary Fund Legal

Transnational Organized Crime: Summary of a Workshop‎

Multijurisdictional Drug Law Enforcement Strategies: Reducing Supply And Demand
​

As I wonder how many, if anyone, will actually read every word, or every one.......but that is another topic in itself, isn't it

 

[Julian]

A commentary on topic:

What is ones objective?....what do they want?.....who are they, and what do they do?

What does one want to do......what does one want to be?.....

In some cases remaining "penniless" isn't unwise.......maybe a happy medium?.....invest a small portion and keep the rest in cash (not in a safe, all that's going to do is buy boats for the officers/agents who uncover it should something happen.....)

People seem to be far more concerned with financial than other areas of their life which demand attention, such as their professional life.......Read: An investigation revealing no visible means of support, etc....

Nothing is going to last forever.......but how many actively focus upon a direction for when such occurs?...(and it will. As certain as the sun will rise. Even if only "temporarily"....)

There are many approaches and strategies that have been addressed elsewhere, in detail.

And herein lies the issue: People naturally tend to focus more on what to do with it, then on making it........Have to make it first......endless options before one is ever in a position of "having more than they know what to do with".....

 

[Dr. G]

so i have a dba and all liability is on me

my account wants me to go incorperated so i pay slightly less taxes

should i stay a dba or start a corp?


and i only deposite money so i can buy a house in 2 years thats the whole goal also if i had extra money id take 80k and bury it for bust or somthing of that nature




another ?

what if hypotheticly i gave my mother in law 2grand a mth to deposite at the first of the mth in a savings account

then in 2 years she gave that money to my morgage people when i buy my house

is she going to get autided for that? or is she going to get looked at in any way?

 

[Julian]

so i have a dba and all liability is on me

my account wants me to go incorperated so i pay slightly less taxes

should i stay a dba or start a corp?

Which might be you can incorporate and save 3000 a yr in taxes but having a corporation and accountant at the same time costs 3000 more......

I'd ask him how much any extra work if C Corp will cost you

2. You'd have to register name appropriately regardless, also, any and all variations:
Let's say you have "What The Fuck Clean Ups" as a business...

Well, if you decide to start answering your phone "W T F, how can I help you", then you have ano0ther name to register in conjunction with first name....ie: WTF....

Then you might decide to just answer as "What the Fuck" , well, another name to register, etc.....

and i only deposite money so i can buy a house in 2 years thats the whole goal also if i had extra money id take 80k and bury it for bust or somthing of that nature

Actually, a good example of the above as to why....

Mortgage requirements changed, more tight so if self employed assume will need 3 years.

If alreday working?, well, then just need to "pad" returns enough to qualify to get what you want, so let's say an extra 20k a yr.....Ah, so 20k extra?...

Not necessarily..........
(Should be noted W-2 employees mortgage qualifying ratios use gross while self employed are subject to net......ie: If one makes 80k but writes off 40k your qualifying income will only be 40k (your net)......

But the real issue is decided at the beginning, and:
Is one "out" or "in"......slang....translation meaning is one choosing to utilize their "extra" money instead of hiding it (or both)........

Assets subject to seizure,so, being in them for the minimum then would be the choice....ie: I don't give a fuck if you have 500k in cash....if you can get it for 15k down, that is the wisest.......

Nothing is going to happen regarding any issue if no bust occurs...

Which leads back to is one in or out?.....

5 years and quit?....well, what if you don't?

Owning property?...minimum down and maybe some in repairs.....

All depends which way one wants to go...

Throw dice and all in properties?....half and half?..........live on pennies and have 2MM stashed until your ready to quit?.....

All depends on which way one wants to go.....

Anyway....

what if hypotheticly i gave my mother in law 2grand a mth to deposite at the first of the mth in a savings account

then in 2 years she gave that money to my morgage people when i buy my house

Could do yourself, and, "gift" would change mortgage issues, as source of funds always has to be documented......(They very well may allow a gift.........but on your loan , might have underwriting guidelines stating can't get a gift for more than half.....

2k a month, declare...I can't see as a big issue........(fuck, tell your accountant you make it on the street....playing cards.....selling knock off purses,.........whatever......he'll have lot of creative solutions....they've seen it all............

Note: If anyone does that, keep the source "small and innocent"......ie: something that the general public doesn't frown upon, considered common, etc.....

No need for anyone else......do it all yourself,pad your returns, make em look good, get a home.....mortgage process all about credit and tax returns.....

Note: You could say./list on tax returns "circus clown"....all about the numbers and credit......

One only has to stop and think about the range of people in the world....

Any given accountant most likely has dancers (strippers), gamblers, thieves, people involved in numerous crimes, etc......(all of which may vary individual to individual based on their policies.......but, they all have to go somewhere....)

Trick is keeping all your numbers straight....bank 100k?, then declare 100k, then don't spend documented more than 100k..(meaning don't bank 100k, declare 100k, and go out and buy cars, bikes, ATV's and boats in a year with 120k cash in separate transactions, etc.....

Financials are easy:
What would you see if you looked over them?

Because that's what it all is...looking and piecing everything together and following the inconsistencies....

Goal is to have none.

Not that difficult when one starts keeping all issues in mind and behavior...

 

[Dr. Smokepuma]

well

well

Is it really that easy? How would you survive an audit?

get a bizz licence at the court house then you can open a bank account.

something like house cleaners lawn service ect ... if you live in the southwest there are so many of them small bizz they don't care and now with all the economy if ya play it smart small amount they won't catch on. plus most out of home bizz deal in cash ... like ebay the irs is still trying to get some of the action...jsut my 2 cents

 

[yamaha_1fan]

I finally had time to review the links and items discussed. The links to the DOT FINCEN and SARS reports were very helpful. I never really thought about it but I never imagined such an extensive network to keep track of this.

From what I read the CRT's are not a big issue in themselves. One report I saw a guy had 17 and one SAR which I believe led to the investigation.


I dont want to get into alot of detail because I am surprised this topic hasnt been deleted or locked but from those following my grow log should know my intents.


Julian you mention I am over estimating bank employees. Its only me freedom and my families security I am trying to protect.

And herein lies the issue: People naturally tend to focus more on what to do with it, then on making it........Have to make it first......endless options before one is ever in a position of "having more than they know what to do with".....

By looking in my desk drawer, I would say I am making it. Certainly not enough that I dont know what to do with. But the trick here is how to get it into the bank

 

[yamaha_1fan]

I tried editing my previous post but for some reason it wont save the edit.

EDIT: I found this guide and it basically tells you what banks are told to look for. How convenient

I dont know if this can be found online:

Lets say you had 1 account at 5 different banks (not branches but different banks). Is there some centralized system that would link the accounts together by Social Security # or FEI #? I think the safest way around that is by starting a new entity and FEI for each acct.

I suspect no because some of the guidleine for SAR is to prevent structuring from multiple transactions and if they dont have an automated system for that (they currently depend on tellers etc to make a SAR), then they surely dont have one for different banks.

Plus it seems like the gov is depending on the banks to do their work. Otherwise there would be a system that would have open access to every bank and every acct that bank had which seems improbable.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

duh heres the guide

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/pdf/msb_prevention_guide.pdf

 

[Julian]

Julian you mention I am over estimating bank employees.

Just the links contained in thread currently would give one a greater knowledge and understanding of the overview than any "bank employee" ever could.

Above contains government regulations, actual investigations and their process's, through text's devoted to topic and then some which few are well versed.

Put all of the above subject matter together and you do not have the equivalent in knowledge and education of a "bank employee", but more that of a rookie Federal Investigator specializing in these matters.

 

[whodi]

nice link

 

[yamaha_1fan]

you got to give credit to Julian for the link. He pointed me in the right direction. If you dig around on that site, they have monthly reports and basically tell you how people got caught. Its pretty cool.


But on the flip side, you never know what they got going on behind the scenes

 

[Whatever]

Haha...Julien posted some good info here...especially regarding ESTABLISHED accounts but from what I know would not try and deposit more than $5,000 cash at any one time otherwise. The $10,000 'rule' has long been history from what I understand.

 

[Julian]

What I believe to be one of the most interesting cases/stories to date.

The reader would be advised to read very carefully...., as it is a very interesting story...

I'm not going to highlight what should be.




HE WHO CARRIES A BUNCH OF MONEY
The U.S. Treasury Department is keeping an eye on familiar but mysterious businessman
Matt Apuzzo,Alicia A. Caldwell, Associated Press

Sunday, August 3, 2008

(08-03) 04:00 PST Washington -- The businessman arrived at the Treasury Department carrying a suitcase stuffed with about $5.2 million. The bills were decomposing, nearly unrecognizable, and he asked to swap them for a cashier's check. He said the money came from Mexico.

Money like this usually arrives in an armored truck or insured shipping container after a bank burns or a vault floods. It doesn't just show up at the visitor's entrance on a Tuesday morning. But the banking habits of Franz Felhaber had stopped making sense to the government long ago.

For the past few years, authorities say, he and his family have popped in and out of U.S. banks, looking to change about $20 million in buried treasure for clean cash.

The money is always the same - decaying $100 bills from the 1970s and 1980s.

It's the story that keeps changing:

-- It was an inheritance.

-- Somebody dug up a tree and there it was.

-- It was found in a suitcase buried in an alfalfa field.

-- A relative found a treasure map.

No matter where it came from or who found it, that buried treasure stands to make someone rich.

It could also send someone to jail.



Navigating bureaucracy
Felhaber is a customs broker, a middleman.

His company, F.C. Felhaber & Co., is just minutes away from the bridge between El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. Tens of billions of dollars of Mexican goods cross that bridge each year, aided by people such as Felhaber who navigate the customs bureaucracy.

Customs brokers don't own the stuff that comes into the United States. They just make sure it gets here.

So it is with the $20 million. Felhaber says the money is not his. A Mexican relative, Francisco Javier Ramos Saenz-Pardo, merely sought help exchanging money that had been buried for decades, Felhaber says.

"To be very clear on this matter: In the beginning, I was not told what it was," Felhaber said in one of several telephone interviews with the Associated Press.

Money petrifies after sitting underground that long and Felhaber said it looked like a brick of adobe. The Treasury will exchange even badly damaged money, but Felhaber said Saenz-Pardo did not want to handle the process himself.

"Imagine a Mexican family bringing money that is damaged and the government calling it a drug deal," Felhaber said.

If the goal were to avoid unwarranted attention, he went about it all wrong. Rather than making a simple - albeit large - exchange at the Treasury, Felhaber allegedly began trying to exchange smaller amounts at El Paso-area banks, raising suspicion every time.

The first stop was the Federal Reserve Bank in El Paso, where authorities say Felhaber appeared with an uncle, Jose, and an aunt, Esther. In her purse, Esther carried $120,000. She told bank officials there were millions more, discovered while digging to expand a building in Juarez, according to U.S. court records filed by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Banks normally refer such requests to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, an arm of the Treasury. But employees worried that, with so much cash, the three might be robbed on their way home. So, the bank accepted the money and wired $120,000 to an account in his uncle's name, Jose Carrillo-Valles, according to a government affidavit.

Felhaber was back at it again weeks later, this time at a Bank of America branch. Customs officials say he unsuccessfully tried to persuade a bank vice president to dispatch an armored truck to the Mexican border to pick up millions of dollars.

Felhaber denies that conversation took place. But he is tough to pin down on details. At times he seems specific on a point ("There is a $20 million inheritance"), only to contradict himself minutes later, saying that the amount is "nowhere near that" and that he has no idea where the money came from.

Soon after the Bank of America visit, a man bearing a striking resemblance to Felhaber walked into a Bank of the West branch. This time, however, authorities say the customer identified himself as Ken Motley and said he discovered millions while excavating a tree in Chihuahua, Mexico.

Bank employees refused to exchange any money, despite two follow-up phone calls - once with a Spanish accent, once without - trying to set up an exchange.

The mysterious Ken Motley also appeared at the First National Bank, telling employees that a friend had discovered $20 million buried in an alfalfa field, investigators say.

Felhaber says he is not Ken Motley.

Customs investigators say a Bank of the West employee identified Felhaber's picture as that of Ken Motley.

"That's an absolute lie," Felhaber said. "That would be a horrendous miscarriage of justice."

It's unclear which transaction caught investigators' attention. Most of the tens of thousands of exchanges of mutilated money each year are routine. Natural disasters create a lot of inquiries. Children of the Depression have kept money out of banks, only to see it eaten by rodents in their attics or destroyed in fires. A surprising number of people accidentally shred greeting cards with money inside.

But authorities say there are warning signs that trigger investigations. Making a series of small exchanges is one. Bringing mutilated money from abroad is another.

"That is one of the things we are extra concerned about: This process being used to launder money from illegal activities," said Leonard R. Olijar, the chief financial officer of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. "That's one of our factors that we use to make a case suspicious."

Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents questioned Felhaber in October 2005. According to a government summary of that interview, Felhaber said he believed the money was the result of a 1970s Mexican land deal. The money was buried in a coffin, he said, until Saenz-Pardo - the relative who brought him the money in the first place - discovered a map leading him to the buried treasure.

Felhaber said he didn't want to do anything illegal and was merely getting a cut of whatever he exchanged.

He now says he was mistaken in his interviews with investigators.

"I told them, 'I suspect this is where it's from but I didn't know,' " he said. "They take you to your word like you're supposed to remember every single thing every single time."



A change in strategy
Maybe it was the visit from investigators or maybe someone realized the bank visits weren't working, but Felhaber apparently changed strategies.

In January 2006, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing received a package containing about $136,000 from Jose Carrillo-Valles, Felhaber's uncle. Felhaber's business was listed as the return address. The letter explained the money had been stored in a basement for 22 years.

Though customs officials were suspicious by then, there was no clear evidence of a crime, just a lot of unanswered questions. So, two months later, the Treasury mailed a check, which was deposited into Carrillo-Valles' account.

Following the money, investigators interviewed Carrillo-Valles and his wife. Each denied ever sending or receiving the money, according to a government affidavit.

As for the $120,000 wired to Jose's account from the Federal Reserve a year earlier, they allegedly said it was an inheritance. Esther said Jose's mother had recently died.

Authorities don't believe the inheritance story. For starters, they say Jose's mother was still alive when the $120,000 was exchanged. They also traced a wire transfer from Jose's account to someone named Saenz-Pardo shortly after it was deposited.

Customs investigators now believed Carrillo-Valles was acting as an intermediary, taking a cut of the money and sending the rest to Saenz-Pardo or someone else in Mexico.

Twice, reporters called Carrillo-Valles on his cell phone to ask about the arrangement and confirm his discussions with investigators. First, he said he did not speak English. When a Spanish-speaking reporter called back, he said he could not hear her, and hung up.

In April 2007, the case moved from being suspicious to becoming a criminal investigation. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials called the Justice Department, saying Felhaber had just arrived in person at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing with about $1.2 million.

It's not illegal to find money. Depending on where it's found, there might be a bureaucratic process to follow or taxes to be paid, but the discovery itself is not a crime.

There are strict rules, however, about bringing money into the United States. Import documents identified the $1.2 million as belonging to Jose Carrillo-Valles. Based on their investigation so far, authorities believe that was a lie - a violation that carries up to five years in prison.

But Washington federal prosecutor William Cowden decided to wait. Maybe Felhaber would return with even more.

It paid off. This April, Felhaber was back at the Treasury, this time with a suitcase containing $5.2 million. Investigators say they have found no import documents filed for this deal, a violation of cash smuggling laws that also carries up to five years in prison.

Prosecutors moved in. Felhaber's two Treasury visits gave them probable cause to seize the money - both the $1.2 million and the $5.2 million.

They told a federal magistrate in June that they suspected it was all drug money that had been buried or hidden inside a wall for decades.

"Given that the money is coming north from Mexico, that both conflicting and cockamamie stories have been told about its origins, and that all the stories of how it got to be found are fantastical, I strongly suspect that the Felhaber currency is the proceeds of illegal bulk narcotics sales," ICE investigator Stephen A. Schneider told the magistrate.

Nothing to do with drugs
Felhaber says he's still not sure what all the fuss is about. At times he says he has no idea where the money came from, but he is always certain it has nothing to do with drugs.

None of the documents filed in federal court accuses Felhaber or his relatives of being involved in drugs. They leave open the possibility that somebody merely came across a cache of drug money, forgotten or abandoned in the Mexican desert.

In the coming weeks, the Justice Department plans to seek criminal forfeiture of the seized $6.4 million. That means Felhaber and his family will have the opportunity to come to Washington to ask for their money back.

If they do, they'll have to explain where it came from. And they'll have to sort through some of the inconsistent stories for a federal judge. Felhaber bristles at the suggestion there have been inconsistencies.

"The story has never changed," he said. "I don't know how it's changed."

Cowden, the federal prosecutor, said he doesn't know what to expect.

"Some of these cases, nobody ever comes forward," he said.

If so, the buried treasure will become government property.

Or at least some of it. Perhaps there is $14 million more out there, muddy and waiting to be exchanged.

Does Felhaber know if there's any money left?

On that, it's hard to get a straight answer.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

had he filed the proper paperwork and done it in one trip w/o all the bank visits, he probably would have been in the clear.

Someone down the line of associates from me was caught with a couple hundred grand in a car on the way to pick stuff up. That was 2 years ago and he is still being held on terrorist charges/patriot act. So on the other hand I am not so sure about walking in and trying to exchange 6 million dollars in cash


If you bury your money, protect it somehow. I have heard of very old money stored in Mason Jars just turning to ash when the jar was opened.

 

[greengorillaz]

open up a bar, Id bet most of their daily deposits consist of cash.

 

[whodi]

i've heard that also yams...

anyone know a propper way of storing money underground? bags instead of jars?

The problem was the moeny was getting too crispy in mason jars stored underground, and when touched, the moeny turned into lil pieces of dust/ash

Maybe people jsut aren't burying the money deep enough.. i'm guessing it'd be fine if you bury at least 4-6 ft deep..

 

[Rolling Bones]

if buried below the frost line, one would think it should be fine...