Any way to increase bud density growing in organic soil indoors?

[jroadytoady]

I always top-dress and will continue.

Same here - if for no other reason than my worms are hungry little helpers. I don't intentionally put 'em in, they just come from the homemade EWC. Usually have several dozen adults in the mulch by end of flowering.

 

[BudToaster]

Hello all,

Been away for a while and haven't had much time to scan through the forums for this particular subject matter, so I apologize if related content has been made available elsewhere. If anyone knows of a similar thread that I can refer to while I start parsing through past postings that would be much appreciated.

I'm wondering if anyone has successfully been able to increase the density of their buds using some method, ingredient, soil mix etc. while growing in fully organic soil indoors. To my knowledge (depending on the strain) organic soil grows generally tend to produce lighter, 'wispier' buds vs. those grown in a more synthetic, or even outdoor environment which can produce larger, heavier, and denser buds. In the case of outdoor, this may be due in part to a matter of scale (where space isn't as much of an issue and larger plants will grow larger/denser buds) or other elements of the environment ex sunlight, fresh air etc.

Fwiw, the strain will be Verdant Greens pre98 bubba which is a low yielder as it is.

i agree with the comments about light ... when i changed from one vertical 250w HPS to two stacked vertical 250w HPS. all of a sudden the buds were dense. cab is 2' x 2' x 4' tall. 2.25gal recycled organic soil with Good Earth Organics ferts. this is true across jamaican, c99, white widow, ak47 strains. getting 5 oz per pot. i water 2 times per week @ 1.5 liter per pot. 1 Tbsp. flower+brix fert per pot once per week.

i top dress about 6oz of worm castings when going from veg to flower.

 

[Redrum92]

One more vote for lighting. I started growing with CFLs, and would always get very fluffy buds. When i changed to LED, I changed nothing else in the environment and started getting rock hard buds.

Of course, genetics would be the caveat or second factor to that. You're never growing rocks of granite from an untamed narrow leaf landrace. Definitely takes a modern line with lots of proper selecting throughout, usually a solid hybrid, though some purer indicas occasionally throw out thicker buds.

 

[mme_oscar]

Appreciate it, growing under LED is preferred over the alternative of lowering temps with HID?

Any specific ratios or %'s top of mind that would be helpful on how much salty nutrients to add?

I'd say I'd rather grow under led. I think it's denser under led because of the spectrum (at equivalent ppfd).
Lowering temp with hid is less certain but helps.

Regarding the salty nutrients, my point was not all organics are the same. Comparing órgano mineral with soil you prepared earlier on (with bonemeal and this kind of stuff) isn't fair comparison. Do I make sense?

Btw someone mention Si, which I supplement too. I think that's the last mineral I use except for my mums.

 

[Asentrouw]

Thanks, I'm trying to avoid any synthetic nutrients which may prove to be a difficult endeavour but still need to do some research on if/how its possible to dial in for bigger/denser buds on this strain with fully organic soil, lighting, or other factors of environment.

Genetics wise I know this variety is a low yielder hence the motivation to try and improve on it. Any specifics you might have top of mind for lighting tips with this strain or similar indica dominants?

In the end it comes down to watts/lumen; the stronger the lights, the bigger and denser your buds will be.

Temps may also play a small part, lower temps seem to create denser buts.

And good and developed roots, which is mostly a matter of good soil and proper watering.

I think there is little more to it then those factors.

If you want to try it with ferts, there are probably also organic substitutes for high PK salts (for instance BAC bloom, etc. which is based on melasses). This seems to make the plant canabalize itself faster and seems to puff up the buds a bit, although this is bro-science from my part (= only from personal observations with PK, as I don't know the exact science behind it).

But the effects are limited; any balanced feeding will probably give good results. Most of the time less is more and most "miracle" ferts don't offer what they promise. These days I just re-use the old soil, amment it with blood- and bonemeal, vinessecali, lavameal and epsom salts. Cheap as can get and works like a charm.

 

[yaz828]

With rice hulls, it takes a bit before it becomes available, maybe mid grow cycle? But as a foliar spray in veg, I honestly see results in a few days. The leaves even thicken like pepper leaves. Probably over doing it but hey, science! have two plants from the same seed pack called ocean fruit. The one in flower has thinner petioles than the one Im feeding silica consistently in veg. After a couple days, the stems doubled thickness with the foliar spray. It could just be what it was gonna do but idk, seems legit. View attachment 18976784
View attachment 18976775
View attachment 18976776

thx for sending the pics, those are sturdy girls. what's in your foliar spray, synthetic form of silica? know of any natural forms that are water soluble?

 

[yaz828]

No, I haven't had the opportunity to grow any of VG's genetics. He's had some special offerings like the pre98 Bubba.

Watering is key like @jroadytoady said. I'm On board.

In Living Soil. I never allow my containers to dry out. It's about keeping the microbes alive. They die when you allow the soil to dry back. Plants can/will show deficiencies despite enough nutrients in the mix.

5-10% of the soil volume for potting soils.

Small Containers with bigger plants need daily water.
Here's how I measure the amount of water per gallon of soil.

How much water is 5% or 10%?
Use your soil volume to multiply by 5% or 10%
For example: 30 Gallons of soil = (30 gallons of soil x 5% = 1.5 gallons of water)

For instance. You have 10 gallon soil containers. You’ll probably water half of a gallon per watering, and you could even use a little less if you do this daily or the plant is not large yet.

Think of soil moisture on a scale of 1-10. 1 being bone dry and 10 being muddy wet. We want to operate in the 3-7 range all day long, day in and day out. You can do this by calibrating automatic watering systems or by hand watering with a little intelligent thought.

I prefer less water and more often. I hand water, usually every day or every other day, depending on container size, plant size, etc.

A large container with a small plant, error on the side of less water. A large plant in a small container, error on the side of too much water.

As far as soil mixes go. There are some proven organic recipes here: Organics for Beginners.
Also, google ClackamasCoot. He's a wealth of information on Living Organic Soil.

Lately, I've been lazy and bought my last soil mix from buildasoil. They claim it's water only, start to finish.
I always top-dress and will continue.

growsjoe appreciate the guidance my friend. I assumed the amount of water used didn't matter if it's about making sure the entire medium is thoroughly soaked (as long as it drains properly and waterings are done less frequently), especially for a heavy drinker like bubba. Read that in a pre98 bubba grow journal, which contradicts what you're saying about operating in the 3-7 zone with 7 being the highest for soil moisture. Is that a strain dependant thing, or something you've found works for indica heavy/kush plants as well? maybe @jroadytoady can chime in.

0.4 litres (10% of 1 gallon pot) doesn't seem like it thoroughly wets the entire medium.

That seems like a good general rule of thumb there for large/small plant in small/large pot.

I'll def check out clackamascoot.

 

[Guy Brush]

Can't read thru everything, but do you want fatter buds or more dense buds? Verdant's Bubba (Katsu's too) had small buds in my experience but they were 'kind of' dense. And those giant leaves that block so much light.
For more bud mass I would try longer veg time plus a lot of defoliation and repeated topping to get as many shoots as possible into the space for more bud sites and of course check the roots after a while. They will need bigger pots as usual as reaction to the training and extra time. But for denser buds alone I would try switching to colder light color, i.e. metal halide etc.

 

[yaz828]

@yaz828 Bigger roots = bigger roots and over-watering drowns 'em so it only makes sense.

What is your current soil mix and lighting?

actually, I need to get this info from my grower along with lighting setup so we can adjust accordingly...so i'll get back to you. Any particular options in soil mix/lighting you've found work well for indica heavy/kush strains such as bubba? (for increased yield, faster veg, overall dial in)

 

[yaz828]

I'd say I'd rather grow under led. I think it's denser under led because of the spectrum (at equivalent ppfd).
Lowering temp with hid is less certain but helps.

Regarding the salty nutrients, my point was not all organics are the same. Comparing órgano mineral with soil you prepared earlier on (with bonemeal and this kind of stuff) isn't fair comparison. Do I make sense?

Btw someone mention Si, which I supplement too. I think that's the last mineral I use except for my mums.

LED seems to be common theme, I believe its more cost effective as well. I used to use cob leds on heatsinks when I grew for myself (veg set and flower set with certain kelvin I can't recall atm).

sorry I don't understand what you mean with re to salty nutrients. Able to expand on that?

 

[yaz828]

In the end it comes down to watts/lumen; the stronger the lights, the bigger and denser your buds will be.

Temps may also play a small part, lower temps seem to create denser buts.

And good and developed roots, which is mostly a matter of good soil and proper watering.

I think there is little more to it then those factors.

If you want to try it with ferts, there are probably also organic substitutes for high PK salts (for instance BAC bloom, etc. which is based on melasses). This seems to make the plant canabalize itself faster and seems to puff up the buds a bit, although this is bro-science from my part (= only from personal observations with PK, as I don't know the exact science behind it).

But the effects are limited; any balanced feeding will probably give good results. Most of the time less is more and most "miracle" ferts don't offer what they promise. These days I just re-use the old soil, amment it with blood- and bonemeal, vinessecali, lavameal and epsom salts. Cheap as can get and works like a charm.

stronger the lights = bigger/denser buds that's to an extent assuming your setup is not overkill correct? (based on #plants, distance from light, size of grow space etc)

noted on temps, soil, watering. Natural NPK substitutes and ratios for adding in veg and flower I will look into more, thanks for reminder.

 

[yaz828]

Can't read thru everything, but do you want fatter buds or more dense buds? Verdant's Bubba (Katsu's too) had small buds in my experience but they were 'kind of' dense. And those giant leaves that block so much light.
For more bud mass I would try longer veg time plus a lot of defoliation and repeated topping to get as many shoots as possible into the space for more bud sites and of course check the roots after a while. They will need bigger pots as usual as reaction to the training and extra time. But for denser buds alone I would try switching to colder light color, i.e. metal halide etc.

good question i'd say both if possible, not sure if one over the other for personal/medical use purposes. Generally just trying to improve on yield. Longer veg forsure can't avoid that but hoping there are some ways to at least speed it up some. LST, defoliation, and plenty of root space I think will be a must as well.

MH for flower? didn't know that was being done will have to look into it, thanks.

 

[Asentrouw]

stronger the lights = bigger/denser buds that's to an extent assuming your setup is not overkill correct? (based on #plants, distance from light, size of grow space etc)

noted on temps, soil, watering. Natural NPK substitutes and ratios for adding in veg and flower I will look into more, thanks for reminder.

Ofcourse it needs to be dialed in with the rest of the equipment, space and number of plants. But I think light is the most important factor.

Under 100 watts you can grow very nice solid bud if the genetics are right, but you are not going to grow rockhard donkeydicks as you can under 400 watts, with much more lumen and better light penetration in the same space.
It's also hard to match the light penetration of LED/HPS with CFL. So that will affect the overall density of buds.

In that regard some supercropping, etc. ("snapping" stems) or LST during veg also helps for much better light penetration.

In the end if you create the best enviroment for your plants, you get superior results. No "wonder fert" is going to do that; I personally think plain old ROLS with some compost and the basic ammentments, a good living soil, works just as good as new soil filled with salts and PK boosters. That's more something of personal preference. I just like ROLS because it's really cheap and simple and see little difference in results as with salts.

 

[jroadytoady]

@yaz828 Can you please share as many details of your grow with us?

What's your soil mix, pot type, pot size, lighting, room size, light cycle, from seed or clones, watering log, size of plants when going into flowering, veg length, etc.

PS - I use the same lighting and soil mix for damn near everything. That's the beauty of organics, treat the soil like an all you can eat buffet and the plant takes what it needs. And this means no force feeding! Building an great soil takes time... "You can't make a baby in 9 months by getting 9 women pregnant"

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

The hierarchy

Water
Air
Light

In the end, water/air is the most important thing and what's building the entire plant.
Light is a big factor but is also fixed, meaning it's not subjected to growers input during the entire cycle, you buy a light and run it.
We also take into consideration that the grower in our case has a sufficient light system to sustain those rates of photosynthesis.
So grower input of water/air cycles will do most of the work in terms of getting dense buds or just over vigor grow.
In organics like hydro performance is not possible due to the medium capabilities of water/air cycles.
Sure some growers try to get around this problem by all creative means but it won't amount to the capability of true hydro mediums can reach when dialed.

About solutions to this, mostly mixing coco/perlite as much as you can with your soil mix in order to allow more water/air cycles, other than that, a stronger light if yours is low rated, a higher value of temps and rh will help also.

 

[SlangZaddy]

At risk of sounding like I don't understand the question, once you've heeded the great advice in this thread about environment etc, there is a genetic you might consider.

Having run her several times in different conditions, I can say that this fem is ALWAYS mega-dense to the point that she may betray you without flawless ventilation but she is otherwise versatile, low-maintenance & high-reward.

Her name is Glueberry OG (from Dutch Passion).

Can anyone with experience second this?

 

[oldmaninbc]

If a strain does not produce dense buds because of genetics, can that phenotype be coaxed into producing dense buds?

 

[BudToaster]

you should do a poll ... i vote no.

 

[mudballs]

From what I've seen it's mostly genetics and DLI...if i grow the same dense nug summer phenos late in the year and flower in Nov/Dec (in texas i can) i get loose crappy buds. You ever notice if you have the lights low and strong you make squat short plants in veg? But higher lights make them stretch yeah? Same deal with nug structure. Nothing can be done except maximizing DLI and ppfd