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An Overview of Cannabis Training (ScrOG, SoG, FIM, Super-Crop, LST, etc.)
- Thread starter Quazi
- Start date
StickyIcky29A
Member
I usually LST because of simplicity. The pictures and breakdown were great. I will use this as a reference for a long time.
Pittsburgh Kush
Member
Wow, great job, this needs to be a sticky somewhere. ICMAGS homepage?
bbing
Active member
Damn Quazi: you really went crazy with this stuff, nice job!
I thought this was LST:
I am still a bit confused by how you are differentiating FIMing from Topping. If I have it right, you indicate the location of the cut is what determines it?
I have always understood it a bit differently: Supercropping was FIMing during onset of flower and FIMing was lightly crushing the primary growth tip during veg to slow its development down (causes it to spend energy producing replacement cells at sight of damage vs. growth). A direct result is the non-primary floral sights will "catch-up" and level the playing field. Once this happens, auxin levels are more equally distributed across all bud sites.
Topping has always meant cutting the top off of the plant wherever or however much top exists.
I would also suggest SOG is a training method, only the plants train themselves based on interproximal spacing and light competition. Additionally, SOGing is difficult to mix multiple strains unless you are one of those pioneering individuals that has calculated rootmass volume and clone height veg time to "calm" mixed seas, or you use strains that are have similar growth patterns and nutruient requirements. Seems to be used where single strains can be crowded and where single colas are managed by root volume and start times.
Hope this thread becomes the one stop shop for plant training! Awsome stuff!
I thought this was LST:
I am still a bit confused by how you are differentiating FIMing from Topping. If I have it right, you indicate the location of the cut is what determines it?I have always understood it a bit differently: Supercropping was FIMing during onset of flower and FIMing was lightly crushing the primary growth tip during veg to slow its development down (causes it to spend energy producing replacement cells at sight of damage vs. growth). A direct result is the non-primary floral sights will "catch-up" and level the playing field. Once this happens, auxin levels are more equally distributed across all bud sites.
Topping has always meant cutting the top off of the plant wherever or however much top exists.
I would also suggest SOG is a training method, only the plants train themselves based on interproximal spacing and light competition. Additionally, SOGing is difficult to mix multiple strains unless you are one of those pioneering individuals that has calculated rootmass volume and clone height veg time to "calm" mixed seas, or you use strains that are have similar growth patterns and nutruient requirements. Seems to be used where single strains can be crowded and where single colas are managed by root volume and start times.
Hope this thread becomes the one stop shop for plant training! Awsome stuff!
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M
Movintarget
zingablack said:
Brilliant...2nd the motion as a sticky....simple, easy to read and understand with pic's to boot...Great job.
Uncle Remus
Member
Oops...I kinda highjacked this thread with all the pics and stuff...Should have know better...Sorry Quazi...Pics removed
Quazi
Member
zingablack: thanks! I really thought the compilation was the part that was missing from these forums. There are so many great examples of the individual methods to be had in individual threads, but nothing really taking the time to explain them all. It was one of the greater goals of this guide and I'm glad you caught on to that emphasis!
ambr0sia: thanks br0. You rock.
Uncle Remus: not hijacked at all sir. The more pictures and examples the merrier. I just hope that this can be a thread that can be a reference for anyone interested in training.
In regards to SOG as a method of training: I can kind of agree and disagree with what you said. While I do agree that the plant is training itself, I don't believe that it belongs under the categorization of "training". If SOG were counted as training, then wouldn't outdoor spacing of plants be considered just as much training? Or perhaps 1 gal containers under a 1000W?
Plants can adapt to their situations based on any type of foliage in the area around them. I think that training emphasizes constant human interference to produce maximum yields.
In addition: I don't think that I can agree that it is not suitable for a variety. Because of the number of different containers you have and the size of the buds you are producing, it is not as though one small plant will be producing a canopy that will render another stunted. This is in a smaller SOG environment mind you.
In larger SOG environments, I do agree with you in that there can be the risk for canopies stunting other plants. Though again: the plant would have to be in a large enough container to produce a canopy that would stunt the other plants.
In either case though: it seems that being able to put multiple varieties under a light would not only be possible (if from a newly rooted clone in a mini-SOG), but quite likely probable (if placed intelligently in pots under lights).
Maybe it's safe to say that SOG and mini-SOG are two different training methods?
I don't know, I've had one too many bowls this evenin'.
Thanks a bunch for your contribution!
Everyone else: I'm glad you like the guide and have found it useful. Thanks!
-Q
ambr0sia: thanks br0. You rock.
Uncle Remus: not hijacked at all sir. The more pictures and examples the merrier. I just hope that this can be a thread that can be a reference for anyone interested in training.
You have it correct. From what I have found, Supercropping involves the crushing of the stems in various places. FIM involves the cutting of a particular part of the stem by a blade, curved blade, or fingernails. Topping involves removing the growing tip.bbing said:
In regards to SOG as a method of training: I can kind of agree and disagree with what you said. While I do agree that the plant is training itself, I don't believe that it belongs under the categorization of "training". If SOG were counted as training, then wouldn't outdoor spacing of plants be considered just as much training? Or perhaps 1 gal containers under a 1000W?
Plants can adapt to their situations based on any type of foliage in the area around them. I think that training emphasizes constant human interference to produce maximum yields.
In addition: I don't think that I can agree that it is not suitable for a variety. Because of the number of different containers you have and the size of the buds you are producing, it is not as though one small plant will be producing a canopy that will render another stunted. This is in a smaller SOG environment mind you.
In larger SOG environments, I do agree with you in that there can be the risk for canopies stunting other plants. Though again: the plant would have to be in a large enough container to produce a canopy that would stunt the other plants.
In either case though: it seems that being able to put multiple varieties under a light would not only be possible (if from a newly rooted clone in a mini-SOG), but quite likely probable (if placed intelligently in pots under lights).
Maybe it's safe to say that SOG and mini-SOG are two different training methods?
I don't know, I've had one too many bowls this evenin'.
Thanks a bunch for your contribution!
Everyone else: I'm glad you like the guide and have found it useful. Thanks!
-Q
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B
buzzed day
nice work!! thanks and peace.
Topping is when you cut in between the nodes to make the next lower branches the new top of the plant.
FIM (Fuck I Missed) is when you top a plant nodes like topping but right on the node so that when it grows back it grows multiple branches out of the wound. its tricky to get. so tricky in fact that it should be called Topping and FIM should be when you cant get it right.
somehow over the years and OG being shut down. topping became supercropping with people saying to super crop you have to keep topping your plants uppermost node till the side branching takes over and makes your plant a bush.
supercropping is when you break/bend the stem. topping is when you top the head of the plant. FIM is when you top the plant but instead of taking off the head you go through the shoulder blades.
i was responding to bbing.
nice thread should be sticky.
FIM (Fuck I Missed) is when you top a plant nodes like topping but right on the node so that when it grows back it grows multiple branches out of the wound. its tricky to get. so tricky in fact that it should be called Topping and FIM should be when you cant get it right.
somehow over the years and OG being shut down. topping became supercropping with people saying to super crop you have to keep topping your plants uppermost node till the side branching takes over and makes your plant a bush.
supercropping is when you break/bend the stem. topping is when you top the head of the plant. FIM is when you top the plant but instead of taking off the head you go through the shoulder blades.
i was responding to bbing.
nice thread should be sticky.
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bbing
Active member
Q- yeah I think we are similarly aligned around this one , I thought about it and I have to say, the cool shit right now seems to be small plantlets single cola grows w/ small root volumes. I guess I cant really say its less than optimal when I see small boxes with 6 strains going
bbing's version of LS"T"
I forgot, and left one method out...perhaps you have heard of L.S.T " Little "Scissor Training"
Serioulsy, I use VERY low stress if I can get away with it and train SOG's as Hedges or Turf to alloow Max light effeciency.
bbing's version of LS"T"
I forgot, and left one method out...perhaps you have heard of L.S.T " Little "Scissor Training"
Serioulsy, I use VERY low stress if I can get away with it and train SOG's as Hedges or Turf to alloow Max light effeciency.
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Impressive compilation Quazi, this should be a sticky with no trace of doubt!Pointers to how to supercrop (step by step pics perharps?) will be very useful, you know an image is worth a thousand words
. I think I know how is done by the description but cannot "see" how. Any pointers to which methods are more suited to which strains? or at least for sativa/indica, lanky/bushy phenos etc?
B
buzzed day
hello there is a link o'roma thread [or something like that]around here and it has a movie doing this it's easy.peace
Lollypop Man
Member
Fantastic job Quazi, I would love to see this thread get a little more exposure though - I almost missed it. Hopefully it'll wind up stickied sooner than later.
One note on SOG - I'm glad you included it, but maybe to tie it into the narrative better you could add a few notes on the training one does to each plant in order to maximize the effect. I don't do it myself but I thought the way you produce a "budsicle" was to judiciously trim out lower growth during flowering in order to maximize light penetration and focus the plant's energy on building the main cola? I know it's kind of common sense but it wouldn't hurt to add?
One note on SOG - I'm glad you included it, but maybe to tie it into the narrative better you could add a few notes on the training one does to each plant in order to maximize the effect. I don't do it myself but I thought the way you produce a "budsicle" was to judiciously trim out lower growth during flowering in order to maximize light penetration and focus the plant's energy on building the main cola? I know it's kind of common sense but it wouldn't hurt to add?
Quazi
Member
repuk: as buzzed_day pointed out, there are plenty of more detailed guides available in these forums and on the Internet about how to supercrop. In fact, there are more detailed guides available concerning all of these training methods. This was meant to be an overview, not a "complete guide to training," or something like that.
In regards to the strains: there are a lot of strains that can be trained. If one type of training doesn't work, another may be more effective. It'd be hard to say that certain strains are better than others.
I personally believe that any strain can be trained. It's just a matter of how well the plant reacts.
Most mini-SoGs and, in fact, many larger SoGs, don't rely on trimming the lower stuff to produce the budsicles that you are referring to.
The budsicle occurs by having a strain with tight inter-nodal spacing and dialing it in to know when to flip to 12/12. In addition, these are usually done with clones, not seedlings.
I could see the necessity to trim seedlings if you were trying to SoG with them as they have different growth than clones.
In addition, it would depend on the penetration of the lights you were using to necessitate trimming.
However, you should read more about people who use the SoG method to find out additional details. I just felt it deserved mentioning (whether there be trimming involved or not) because it gets lumped in with ScrOG and LST so often.
Very glad you enjoyed the guide, though! Thanks for stopping by!
-Q
In regards to the strains: there are a lot of strains that can be trained. If one type of training doesn't work, another may be more effective. It'd be hard to say that certain strains are better than others.
I personally believe that any strain can be trained. It's just a matter of how well the plant reacts.
If you don't do it yourself, then you should read more about it!Lollypop_Man said:
Most mini-SoGs and, in fact, many larger SoGs, don't rely on trimming the lower stuff to produce the budsicles that you are referring to.
The budsicle occurs by having a strain with tight inter-nodal spacing and dialing it in to know when to flip to 12/12. In addition, these are usually done with clones, not seedlings.
I could see the necessity to trim seedlings if you were trying to SoG with them as they have different growth than clones.
In addition, it would depend on the penetration of the lights you were using to necessitate trimming.
However, you should read more about people who use the SoG method to find out additional details. I just felt it deserved mentioning (whether there be trimming involved or not) because it gets lumped in with ScrOG and LST so often.
Very glad you enjoyed the guide, though! Thanks for stopping by!
-Q
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P
Peat
Thank you, Quazi!
Very good info, very well presented!
I've got some catching up to do.
So
, what I understand is...
There are different "overall garden goals" that fit better with different styles of training.
Just as, different individual plants develop differently.
Also, individual plants will probably react differently to any type of manipulation.
----------------------------------------------------
That being said, I'ma topper!
My experiments with LST have proven to be very high stress...
to me, the gardener!
The bending and tying / twisting...and adjusting...
The breaking, and splinting...and more adjusting...
Now, I guess there may be some Zen
in all that.
(Or, whatever...)
But, then there's watering around the LST framework...
There was so much water everywhere, you'd a thought I washed the dog...
And, transplanting...don't get me started
----------------------------------------------------
Now, I just cut their heads off.
Almost immediately, just above the 2nd node. :kitty:
AND, just when they thought it was over, I top them again!
This time, above the 3rd node.
(On both of the emerging branches from the 2nd node).
This gives me 4 main branches growing from the 3rd node.
The two branches at the 1st node are taken as cuttings as soon as they are ready. (I don't keep moms.
)
--------------------------------------------------
I try to veg them out 3-4 weeks after the last topping to recuperate under 400W.
(I find pruning can encourage growth...)
--------------------------------------------------
I'll trim out the "bottoms", as necessary.
I flower under 1 kW, so I get pretty good penetration.
--------------------------------------------------
I try to do ALL my pruning in a "low stress" manner.
One way is to make the cuts as soon as possible.
It seems, the smaller the amount removed, they less stressful the experience.
As long as the trimmings are small, I'll continue removing bottoms well into flowering (as long as needed...)
My goal is to not have many / any "bottoms" beyond the penetration of the 1 kW.
Very good info, very well presented!
I've got some catching up to do.
So
, what I understand is...There are different "overall garden goals" that fit better with different styles of training.
Just as, different individual plants develop differently.
Also, individual plants will probably react differently to any type of manipulation.
----------------------------------------------------
That being said, I'ma topper!
My experiments with LST have proven to be very high stress...
to me, the gardener!
The bending and tying / twisting...and adjusting...
The breaking, and splinting...and more adjusting...
Now, I guess there may be some Zen
in all that.(Or, whatever...
)But, then there's watering around the LST framework...
There was so much water everywhere, you'd a thought I washed the dog...
And, transplanting...don't get me started
----------------------------------------------------
Now, I just cut their heads off.
Almost immediately, just above the 2nd node. :kitty:
AND, just when they thought it was over, I top them again!
This time, above the 3rd node.
(On both of the emerging branches from the 2nd node).
This gives me 4 main branches growing from the 3rd node.
The two branches at the 1st node are taken as cuttings as soon as they are ready. (I don't keep moms.
)--------------------------------------------------
I try to veg them out 3-4 weeks after the last topping to recuperate under 400W.
(I find pruning can encourage growth...)
--------------------------------------------------
I'll trim out the "bottoms", as necessary.
I flower under 1 kW, so I get pretty good penetration.
--------------------------------------------------
I try to do ALL my pruning in a "low stress" manner.
One way is to make the cuts as soon as possible.
It seems, the smaller the amount removed, they less stressful the experience.
As long as the trimmings are small, I'll continue removing bottoms well into flowering (as long as needed...)
My goal is to not have many / any "bottoms" beyond the penetration of the 1 kW.
JustaGuy420
New member
Been looking for this for awhile great guide. Thanks.
