An electrical question:

[rastamonunika]

Well we have been doing work around the house for the past few months, and were just wrapping up putting in new windows and demolishing our bathroom. . .

so we decided to test our outlets to see which were grounded (1950's house)
one outlet was grounded, along with a 12v wire that lead to the furnace. . .

Long story short ive been running my old 600w (+accessories) without a ground and never knew about it! I wanted to start again since our construction was winding down, but now i just feel like it isnt safe. . . We dont have the money to rewire at this point, but i was wondering if this would do anything to help:

Its called "SurgeMaster" by Belkin. . . its rated to 312 joules, 19,500 amps, has its own 15amp breaker, 6 outlets that are grounded (if theres a darn ground wire for it in the outlet!)

So long story short, should i scrap my intention of starting up again because i dont have a ground, and is this massive surge protector i bought going to help me in anyway. . . Im going to have an electrician ive done work for come and see if he can connect that one ground wire to another outlet for me so i could have a grounded outlet, but i wanted some professional opinions. . .


sorry for my constant electrical problems! you shoulda seen the bathroom!


anyhelp would be appreciated. . .



lots of Love and Light
unika


Picture of it:

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

hi, the ground prong on the "surgemaster " acts as an equipment ground for any thing plugged in to it, it also acts as the path to shunt ffault currents originating from the surge components called M.O.V.s ( metal oxide varistors ) . MOVs act as an electronic open ckt to ground in the normal state(no surges) when a surge "comes a knockin" towards ur equipment/surgemaster the MOV senses th instant increrase in voltage potential and it "saturates" meaning it acts like a short circuit when high voltages are
present on the line and takes them towards ground intead of towards ur equipment!!

to answer ur ungrounded outlets question ; grounded out lets are always better than ungrounded ones and code compliant too.
a recent thread i was posting in touched on this topic a bit, here is the "skinny" on what was stated.
in the absence of a ground conductor behind ur existing outlets (recepticles) u may install a GFCI ( ground fault circuit interupter ) on the first recepticle in the branch circuit then u can protect the other recepticles on down the line on that circuit w/ the load side terminals on the GFCI. this will open the circuit in the case of a ground fault but since there is no ground conductor present products like ur surge master would not protect against surges as the devices need a path to ground to shunt your fault currents from the MOVs
hope this helps
BUZZ!

 

[rastamonunika]

That did help indeed! Im just dont want to have ym house go up in flames. . . im going to have to ask my electrician if he could install a GFCI, any idea the cost of materials and estimate on labor>?

I wish i knew more about your trade, woulda been helpful now! But i trully do appreciate the help youve given me thus far, i just hope i can communicate my problem to the electrician =P . . . I always refer to my large watt "object" as a server rack, which usually covers up the question of "why so many watts<>"


but anyhow, i appreciate your help =) im going to look through the papers on this house and see if they mentioned that the outlets werent grounded (well, all the outlets but one. . .) hopefully they tried to canive me a bit and i can get them to do the repairs cuz it wasnt up to code. . .


thanks for the help buzz!



lots of Love and Light
unika

 

[TheSource]

I have the same problem, with my outlets not being grounded, except Im renting an apartment. The thing Im most worried about is fires, not really my equipment.

So installing a GFCI on the first outlet from the breaker will give me some protection?

 

[rastamonunika]

YAY!

Not to sound sadistic or anything but im so happy that other poeple are having a similar problem!


These houses in the fifties, im tellin you, they are a lot of work. . . Its the good ol' days when they didnt need to pull permits to do construction =P. . .

I have one grounded outlet in the entire house, and im hoping that we can wire something from that one..

The Source: im not sure about apt. living and whatnot, but as far as i know every house is supposed to have a GFCI if its built after 93'. . . . Dunno if it would have to be built considering ur in an apt, but if u havent started a grow yet tell ur landlord ur plannin on setting up a server room in ur house and need a grounded outlet because ur equipment is expensive!


Im just hoping that i dont have to buy a new service (2500 - 3000) and then have all the outlets rewired (5-6000!) So i was trying to find some other options for us ungrounded folk!



thanks for the help buzz, and Source/Stoner, i wish you both the best and hope we cna get someone on here to help us real soon =)



lots of Love and Light
unika

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

I have one grounded outlet in the entire house, and im hoping that we can wire something from that one..

The Source: im not sure about apt. living and whatnot, but as far as i know every house is supposed to have a GFCI


Im just hoping that i dont have to buy a new service



thanks for the help buzz, and Source/Stoner, i wish you both the best and hope we cna get someone on here to help us real soon =)

hey hey!! homes are required to have GFCI protection at recepticles near water sources like the bathroom,kitchen,laundryroom,outside the structure.
(that covers most circumstances needin GFCIs)

all services will eventually become outdated and replaced. Exactly when do do that in a home is an argueable subject, some buyers opt to do it after closing on the proerty,sellers do it right before listing for sale, insurance companies take a keen interest in the electric service of homes they insure they often force policyholders to upgrade their service or parts of the electric system to get/renew coverage. and sometimes the homeowner just "wants to do it right" and has the skill and or $$$ to do it, they view it as an investment cuzz it really is as it adds an extra measure of value/safety
to the older home.

if ur doing hydroponics a GFCI(s) is(are) a MUST if u value ur safety.

newer code requirements dictate the use of AFCIs (arc fault circuit interupters) on branch circuits serving bedrooms and lighting. this would be an added benefit for your safety also ARC faults can burn ur home down they ussually dont but if something combustable is near the arcing current you have a fire!! not tryin to sell or scare anyone so please read interpret this post as information/enlightenment.
BUZZ!

 

[Guest]

The Source,you dont have to worry about a fire starting because of a lack of ground.The grounding conductor is there for equiptment and personnel safety only,not to prevent fires.Fires normally occur because of overloads not because of a non-grounded circuit

 

[rastamonunika]

Thanks for ur help buzz, as always!

Its incredible, no ground near any of those outlets except one by the sink (and there were 2 outlets by the sink) . . Garage also isnt grounded. . . But im guessing that we can at least use the ground from that one wire and snake it through the house to the receptacles we need. .

I value safety above all things, thats why i was shocked when i discovered i had been running my grow without a ground, really put things into perspective . .

now im just trying to figure out what is the best and most cost-effective way of dealing with this problem . . . We could really use a change of our service, but that 3000 is a bit much with all the other construction we have just done. . . But sadly it might have to be done, unless you know of another option for us ungrounded folk. . . . =P



Anyhow! buzzsmirk its been a pleasure and i appreciate your help, it was very enlightening indeed!



lots of Love and Light
unika

 

[TheSource]

The Source,you dont have to worry about a fire starting because of a lack of ground.The grounding conductor is there for equiptment and personnel safety only,not to prevent fires.Fires normally occur because of overloads not because of a non-grounded circuit

Thanks for easing my mind. This is an older house though, is there anything I can do to safeguard myself from electrical problems? (Im not using hydroponics)

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

u can do it for less,lots less!!

u can do it for less,lots less!!

.

now im just trying to figure out what is the best and most cost-effective way of dealing with this problem . . . We could really use a change of our service, but that 3000 is a bit much with all the other construction we have just done. . . But sadly it might have to be done, unless you know of another option for us ungrounded folk.
unika

home depot , lowes, menards etc......... sell package deals a 200 amp panel and an assortment of breakers for less than 200 bucks.
use SQUARE D or SIEMENS and select ur best deal.

then look up some electrcian whom works for someoutfit but is not a contractor its called "sidework" for them. for a reasonable price (less than 600 bucks) he or she should change out ur service panel on a "homeowners"
permit. just dont declare any thing about PAYING someone to do this for you to the permit issuer/local GOVT ,inspector.
that way for about a grand ( u will need other shit to be determined by ur electrican) you can get a new service!!!!

the CODE allows installation of GFCIs on ungrounded circuits!!!
( the solution to your concerns???)

good luck!!
BUZZ!

 

[Guest]

Have any of you (shut power off first) removed the receptacle cover and then back the 2 holding screws for receptacle out and pull receptacle out of box to see if a ground wire has been run to at least the plug in question?If there is a bare copper wire tied under screw in back of the box then chances are it is grounded and you can buy a gfci or regular grounded receptacle and put a jumper from receptacle ground to box ground. You can also get a receptacle tester from most hardware stores that will plug into receptacle and tell you if it is grounded or an open ground (meaning plug has ground slot but is not actually grounded to anything) also will tell you if polarity is correct or reverse polarity( usually black and white wires---neutral and hot wires are on wrong side of plug)
I have grounded a whole house 4 story before and changed service, pain in the ass, grounding not service change. I like doing panel swaps but hate the ground pulling.

Anyhow. You should have a ground attached to you copper or steel water main.(new code is requiring ground rods or plates be installed to ground the panel and waterlines,as not all homes are built with copper or steel but pvc and plastic watermains.The watermeter is jumpered with ground wire,the water heater lines in and out are jumpered as well.
If you see a groundwire of at least 6AWG (100 amp service ground size) diameter then you have capacity to ground 100 amp service.
If house is ranch style or attic is easy to access from panel location you can run a dedicated circuit of 12/2 gauge wire grounded from panel and have a grounded 110-120/220-240 volt circuit that is fully grounded and capable of 1 220v-240v/20amp or 2 110v-120v/20 amp circuits. Very cheap fix that will keep you safe and let you save up for whole house grounding which will require a ground wire be run to each ungrounded plug.

As for pulling yer own permit, that may not be so easy anymore due to some govt crackdowns on trunk companies( work outta trunk of yer car) doing unsafe , unlicensed and undercharged work.

I have "HELPED" a few homeowners in such situations but can no longer do this without masters as this is what is required to pull permit.

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

every AHJ is different and i am sure some dont allow the "homeowner" to perform this kind of task. but property rights are just that!!! make sure you know your options as some AHJs will misrepresent the LAW just to influence property owners/applicants into using contractors.
where i live operate homeowners have the right to do ANYthing as long as they have stamped drawings,code compliant design/work, the inspector is your best key to passing and compliance, many inspectors are a wealth of information if one does not put them into an "us vs them " context. it is their job and they do a valueble public service to us all!!! they are often underpaid and overworked,unappreciated! be very nice,kind and be a good listener will go a long way towards a pleasant experience with them.
BUZZ!

 

[Guest]

I agree

I agree

BUZZS, ain't sure about AJH.What is an AHJ?
As for the rest of your comment.

HEAR,HEAR I agree.
I think the city workers where I am ,( including the hydro inspector,sanitary inspector, conservation inspector,building inspector,plumbing inspector, etc ) are fantastic. If you can pull a permit then do it,the first place you would call is the hydro office and they in turn would direct you to hydro inspector .
I have as I say HELPED install afew homeowner permits panel upgrades etc myself. So I for one am fully against not being able to perform the work myself.
Quick check of plug in question will allow you to tell your electrician what you want and need.Look in your powered off receptacle yourself for free and see if any groundwire (usually bare copper) is attached to the metal box.If so then ask your electrician to come and verify proper ground and polarity and install new receptacles where needed.
Please note that aluminum and copper react together and create a fire hazard, so get it done right.

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

AHJ = "authority having jurisdiction", city(ies),county(ies),township(s),school districts

it is best defined in the NEC defintions chapter ONE!!!

an AHJ is the permit issuing body usually goverment/building department some organiztions are exempt like federal property as they have a different set of standards to go by.
BUZZ!

 

[Fingers]

Looks like you sure know ur stuff there Buzz,

Sorry to chime in with a question as well, I know a lot less about the subject then most other members it would seem.

I live in Australia (not sure how much harder thats gonna make getting some advice, but I'm damned if i can work this one out with my total lack of knowledge on this.

I've got 1600watts running atm, and another 800w that the powerboards wont take. (By powerboard i mean this BTW (Aus names/terms)

To keep all my lights, fans, pumps etc running i have about ten of these suckers all interlinked. I tried piggybacking them, no good. Tried using one larger board to run all other boards off, and nothing seems to work.

I go over the 1600watts worth and the safety switch on the first board (closest and plugged directly into the outlet/wall socket).

I just have no idea if this is a result of cheap powerboards, or an issue with the houses wiring.

This is probably one of those things where I'm gonna need to find someone with knowledge of local equipment, but i thought it's worth a shot asking.

You should have a thread dedicated to electrical questions Buzz, definately a seriously important aspect of growing. Most problems might result in dead plants, 'dead grower' seems a little more of a worry.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice you could give, and sorry i cant give you better info to go off.

Take care guys,

Fingers

 

[rastamonunika]

Vapor and buzz, you guys are awesome. . . im so glad we have helpful electricians online =) Im hoping that i can at least get ym service changed, and get ONE grounded outlet (other than the single one we have in the kitchen), but i already had an electrciaian go around and check and they werent grounded and from what i could tell the wire was from the fifties and only had the black and white wire, nothing else =/ . . . Im hoping that we cna at least ground a couple outlets for the moment (running a MASSIVE workstation offa ungrounded outlet too, which would be verry bad if lightning struck =/, income goes bye-bye )


anyhow, even tho the majority of the electrical talk above is jibberish to me, i still appreciate the help. . . it gives me more ideas about what options i have, instead of feeling trapped. =) thanks guys, its much appreciated


lots of Love and Light
unika

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

down under ???

down under ???

hi, i am not familiar w/ the electrical practices and cofigurations on your continent so any advice i can offer is "Theory" only!!

i would ask that someone familiar w/Australian electrical setups/standards give u the major advice u r seeking.

those power strip type protectors are fine for small loads but i woulnt consider plugging 1000 watt ballasts into one

good luck and sorry i cant help ur "aussie growin ass"
but you need an expert from ur continent.
BUZZ!

 

[Kenny Lingus]

Hi!

I'm not out here to hijack your thread Rastamon, but I do in fact have the same problem as The Source (rent-apt in Europe though so I might need advice from someone from here...-but I'll give you guys a try anyway ).

I do have a few grounded outlets, and I do have a GFI (or GFCI, dunno!?!) for the technical power-course; like el. water-heater, heated floor in bathroom and at the kitchen. My Power Board isn't updated properly, and I cannot read the map of where each path is leading. BTW this is 220-240V system.


There's an incoming heavy-duty cable at the far left of my "BOX" and a measure-point reader. Below this counting device the row of fuses is placed:

No 1) It seems as there is one incoming course having 2-mains (@ 25 amps I think)

No 2) consist of 2 x 10amp fuses/breakers

No 3) ----------------"-----------------

At the right side of these dual-lines there are a switch with a smaller pin-size/shaped tap to test. (GFI or GFCI!?!)

The map/schedule in the door looks something like this:

1)

2) water-heater, technical devices

3) Groundfault interrupter, Test breaker switch every 6th month

4) ----------

5) ----------

etc, etc....


First off, I find this very uncomplete and misleading. I know I can check which line goes where pretty easily, but can I also see which lines really are grounded or not?

And can a plug-in GFI protect me on an ungrounded route?

THX for listening

 

[Guest]

The easiest way to see if you branch circuits are grounded is to take the dead front cover off the panelbox and have a looksee

 

[stonewall]

How do you make your panel box dead?

How do you make your panel box dead?

GFCI’s help protect you from electrical shock by continuously monitoring
the circuit. However, a GFCI does not protect a person from
line-to-line hazards such as touching two “hot” wires (240 volts) at
the same time or touching a “hot” and neutral wire at the same time.
Also be aware that instantaneous currents can be high when a GFCI
is tripped. A shock may still be felt.


Grow rooms, because of their wet/humid conditions should have circuits that are properly grounded, have proper overload protection, and have ground fault circuit interuptors on all equipment that you may come in contact with. Be aware that highly inductive loads such as HID and Fluorescent lamps and large motors can cause nuisance GFCI tripping.