Amerindian Magic, Japanese Genius, and Mother Nature.

[Floralfaction]

I've read those books and found Mollison's to be the only one worth owning, Holmgren's is too wordy, and Gaia's Garden is too short. Mollison's is more practical for the tropics, but he is such an inspiring person, I get a lot of motivation just from opening to a random page and studying his hand-drawn diagrams.

I HIGHLY recommend Edible Forest Gardens (especially volume II) by Dave Jacke. Well, I'm assuming you live in a temperate climate, if so, get that book. At the least, peruse their website, they have valuable plant info and design worksheets and such http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/network/downloads.

another great resource is permies.com It's a forum based out of MT, but has folks from all over.

blessings

 

[MrFista]

I'll be fine with the academic nature of Holmgren's book, I look forward to learning all his sources.

Temperate here yes. At the moment I don't really know what I'm doing with planting but try to get a tree that produces fruit and surround it by beneficial/medicinal/edible flowers, a cucurbit, N fixers, and a good mineraliser like comfrey or dandelion.

Local succession is easily followed (and my first paper was on primary succession). A gap is followed by kamahi, tree ferns, kanuka and manuka (N fixer), podocarps sprout alongside broadleafs and the broadleafs take the canopy sheltering the juvenile emergent layer. 150 years later competition and thinning is over most of the manuka kanuka and kamahi gone now and the big trees emerge. This varies slightly according to elevation and dominant forest species. Before this, where I went astray on my paper as I went off topic of higher plants... is the bacteria, the algae, the fungi and the epiphytes. I have a personal theory that the introduction of epiphytes to a system accelerates both biodiversity and succesion. Especially after a disturbance. To this end I have introduced several epiphytes in trees here already. These plants fix nutrients and water directly from the air and have a disproportionately high incidence of insects in comparison to non-epiphytic plants. The insects in turn support more birds and lizards, which are my free fertiliser factories.

Interestingly, a local N fixing tree, when not innoculated with rhizobia, will take on an unusually high load of epiphytes as a juvenile... probably worthy of a paper in itself.

 

[jaykush]

i recommend eatable forest gardens too if your just getting started in it. fista should be able to manage himself without it though( and in some cases i find this better, because it keeps your train of thought separate from what you read in books). i have it, it was a gift thankfully( too pricey for me to buy ) and find it a good resource for when helping other people who aren't so into it setup a forest garden to get the concept and how things work in there head.

not as good as a teacher as nature and the natural forests/ecosystems of the world though.

 

[MrFista]

Floral faction - I really appreciate help but I'm also very proactive with the things that interest me, so teaching me involves information exchange, I do soak things up despite the fact I'm constantly spitting out information, thoughts and opinions.

I'm finding the ecology biology and even chemistry helpful in my observations of this garden and how to deal with it. I'll get up to speed with environmental science and geology this year.

Bamboo is something I know nothing about - if I want a variety for growing canes for framing for trellis etc - what type, any species? What is least invasive, what can I plant to border and hold it.

Guilds are my biggest mystery. The palette of plants is enormous. I'm trying to think my way through it without needing help each step (I'm crap at being sociable and refuse flatly to go hang out with the green party)...

I think an important work yet to be done is a global data base of plant guilds as used by permaculture practitioners.

When I have a plant I want to introduce now I'm thinking about it's position, the sun, the wind, the water, the shade, the size and height, the neighbouring plants, is it something I will use a lot, will chickens or fish or wildlife benefit from it, is it conveniently placed to it's usages. Contemplating the types of things I might use at the feet of climbers. This is a bit of a mystery.

Just looking at nutrient flow lately. With the chickens coming, the aquaponic pond, and the external pond. The chooks, worms, plus mulching will put a very high demand on straw and compostables I don't think I can meet. To this end I'm considering external sources of compost material that are the easiest and most convenient for all concerned. Now I have 20 lbs coffee grounds delivered each week. This comes from next door neighbours work so no food miles. I'm in negotiation with an organic cafe owner for bins of food scraps delivered in exchange for garden herbs and watercress from 150 metres away. I could have made a fortune upscaling this watercress system, when I get land watercress will be paying for my rates organic watercress without liver fluke risk meaning you can eat it raw - AMAZING.

So I'm considering the flow of these feedstock materials. How I can minimise processing. The grounds can go directly under mulch and a bit to worms. The food scraps for the chickens to tear up, and my home scraps can keep the worms satisfied as well.

Mulch.... The coppice trees provide some, and the grass patch and duckweed and algae provides more, but it's not enough yet. This is because many garden beds are new, and so they do not have their own plant systems growing. the plants themselves, when a bed starts getting full, provide a lot of the mulch they need for themselves. Broadleaves are useful for nutrients but crappy cover mulch as they shrivel a lot like seaweed. Long grass is a great mulch for coverage - when the weathers hot, I lay it out and it's straw by the next evening. I think I can scythe city spaces the council has missed for their grass and more importantly seed crops. Scoping sites close to home now I could get close to a bale in my backpack. I also need to consider dry winter storage. An old wirewove suspended in the basement with extra ropes acting as sides would likely suffice.

So many things happening at once as I set things up, but I like it like that, my fondest gardening work experiences have always been on polyculture sites.

Humping the last of the concrete today, then a wee cleanup and fence the pond and the greenhouse becomes the summer chicken cabana. It's shaded in the evening, quite jealous, it's a beautiful bedroom.

 

[Floralfaction]

Bamboo-From what I understand there is clumping bamboo (spreads out from a central point, fairly easy to control but spreads slowly) and running bamboo (enourmous roots that put out shoots up to 20' away, needs preemptive control but grows very fast). I helped install a rhizome barrier for running bamboo, basically it was 30mil plastic buried 3 feet in the ground surrounding the desired bamboo-filled area.

For excessive amounts of free mulch, cardboard covered with whatever other mulch you have. If it doesn't go against your aesthetic, it's free and very effective at covering ground. If you've got aggressive grasses or anything that's hard to kill, you should try to dig an edge around the mulched area and tuck the cardboard in. That should sever any connections.

Guilds...I'm pretty new at this too, and they are the reason I recommended EdibleForestGardens, the appendices in the book are the best tool I've found for putting guilds together and working them through succession. As much as I enjoy it, I don't have that book or the funds to buy it, so I'm trying to dig up comparable online resources, I'll share them when the list gets a little more respectable.

What sort of fish are you raising?

Are you working with fungus?

not as good as a teacher as nature and the natural forests/ecosystems of the world though.

Agreed. And that's what I love so much about Mollison's book, I can't think of a single practical thing I've learned from it, but it has increased my ability to internalize the intricacies of my environment.

peace

 

[MrFista]

"but it has increased my ability to internalize the intricacies of my environment"

What a wonderful quote. For me it is like I am reconnecting with the species in the garden. A most profound experience when I stop to sit.

The fish I'm involved in are natives. Galaaxiids for the most part which make our whitebait catch and are the cleanest fish you can possibly eat at that stage, and eels. Eels have enormous potential in aquaculture systems when combined with a decent insect crop. The cultured eels a scientist friend raises in natural farms have 10 times the omega oils of the wild type. Added to this another local scientist has managed to breed them in captivity the future looks bright for this yet to be birthed industry. There are existing highly polluting farms that raise out wild caught stock on fish pellets - ridiculous imo, and nothing like what I will do with them.

Fungus: I'm kinda an amateur mycologist. I've found a new species lately so wound up working in the midst of a fungi team despite the fact I never planned to. I had considered ethnomycology for a career, but I love designing sustainable systems too much. I have been attempting to get medicinals growing on unusual log species (weedy exotic trees), with the most agressive saprobes I can find = Trametes versicolor. So far no luck I thought I'd done it but it turned out to be another trametes got in first. Which is an encouraging sign at least. Fungi are so cryptic, and rather hard to work out despite all the reading and study. Lately had a moth that brings trich with it laying in stem butt cultures. The trich can't touch this specific species till the caterpillar compromises the hyphal wall, then together they devour the whole lot.

Such a fascinating world.

Thanks for the bamboo tips that will really save me a lot of grief especially in a society that frowns on bamboo. They charge $3 a stake at the garden centre and I need hundreds over the next few years. Got a climate almost like Japans so imagine I'll get good growth. Local park had a clumping species grew to about 6 inch diameter before they came in and culled it. Could have built an amazing guest house with that if I had my wits about me they dumped the lot except one piece I took home and a friend made an enormous (standing, outdoor) bong out of it.

I think the shared knowledge data base of plant guilds is crucial if we are to speed up the public acceptance of permaculture. not everyone is a dedicated intellectual with spare time and immense energy. What is need is tried and true practical advice for plant guilds providing crop support in the form of nitrogen minerals and pest control.

There will be patterns easily discernable once enough data is collected.

Gradients over latitude

Gradients over altitude

Gradients over rainfall.

I'd wager there's a bunch of universal rules for guilds. Just discerning what they are.

 

[MrFista]

I just realised I've been successfully growing peppers and capsicums in permanent shade. I've been doing it for three years just didn't see the significance in this till now. I'm always told peppers must have the direct sun but they don't actually need it to fruit or to ripen into the yellows reds and oranges we are familiar with. These are three year old plants. On the capsicum I have many fruit, 4 about to ripen a few days apart starting next week. If you equate this to exactly 6 months ago in your area - these are really early capsicums - in the shade. What's the secret - they are indoor capsicums. No artificial lighting, just the room lighting from windows they don't have direct sun from. I think peppers/capsicum would easily fruit in the shade in the garden, will test it out over this summer with some younger plants.

People always looking for food that will grow in shade.

 

[jaykush]

one of my best peppers this year was under a huge tomato plant, in about 90% shade except for early morning.

 

[MrFista]

Nice to figure these things out eh. Peppers, lettuce, spinach, all liking the shade at present, must be plenty of other plants that do fine in less than optimal lighting. Zuchinni is fine in dappled shade. Will make layering a garden easier once I understand it a bit better.

I'm up to lecture 8 or 9 now. Great stuff. Watched a video today - Water Whisperers. Inspiring, lots of good news from my own country on successful marine reserves; riparian clean ups and subsequent water quality improvements; fisheries improving in areas all around the reserves and below riparian cleanups; farmers and greenies and local tribes working together and eventually getting on well as they all love the land and water in their own way; a rapid return by nature when left alone production on farmland even improving just by planting riparian borders and having wildlife add biodiversity to the land. Still much to do but the models are telling good stories for the future. By having reserve riparian lands and large tracts of reserved waterways of every spawning habitat type we have the fisheries will return to numbers like we had when Captain Cook first sailed here, and our boats can stop pillaging the atlantic now they've squandered our home.

This is what we need in many areas, models that work, and then to advertise these models, make landowners and fisheries and governments aware of the bounty people are gaining through ecological foresight. We only have 1% in reserves. We need to get to 30, and our fish stocks will not only be secure, they'll be massive.

 

[MrFista]

18 lectures in. This was a most fantastic gift Jay - I'll do a bit of a review of the soil biology lecture (16 I think: Joel Gruver) in feed the geek thread once I've laid out more plant stuff. I've been tracing the guys sources and found so much science supporting no till systems and organic methods...

I'm trying to get some synergy going on with energy. Sun energy, wind energy, my energy, the neighbours energy, the animals (so many birds now!) and the way the water and rain move around here.

Dialogue is a word that sprang to mind while thinking about all these things. Humans create multiple discipline systems much better when open dialogue is employed between parties. How can dialogue help me as a gardener. Dialogue with a garden? With the weather?


eg: I recently tried putting straight pond water, no solids filtered, on the Taro. Result is the largest Taro I've ever seen here. I tried the same with watercress and it immediately got attacked by aphids (N too high I suspect). If I filter the solids out the watercress grows at an incredible rate with far slower insect buildup, insect activity minimised to the extent I am cropping before they've set up shop - after cropping comes flood control, and then the next cycle starting with no insects. So what has my garden told me here?

Aphids can be trapped out using watercress and fish solids. Aphids are good fish food, and fish are good food for me and birds and pets and the garden microbial inhabitants. Taro would make an excellent plant in water treatment systems. Watercress aphid damage might correlate with effluent/N levels - (I think there is already evidence correlating too much N and aphids).

I guess it's science in a way - "what will happen if I poke my stick just there?" ...In this experiment Panthera tigris was prodded in the testicular region with the sharpened end of a length of Juniperus virginiana... The experiment was prematurely terminated due to the unfortunate early demise of the researcher.

Dialogue - the parts connected give feedback about the associations, they might work with each other or not, it's not a new concept I'm sure, just makes sense to me in this manner.

Relocating a 250 Gallon tank to a shaded spot today for the pond automated top up system. I've decided not to automate it though as I can get several uses from the tank if I can unseal the top without fear of flooding the pond. A tap for the pond and greenhouse above the pond, and the tap off the base of the tank to flood the swales if needed and for watering outdoors. As well the tank will hold a worm farm. Very convenient worm rum with the water. This goes on top of the tank which is 42 inches high.

1 yard square worm farm mounted on a piece of corrugated iron on a slight slope with a gutter on the low end. the gutter goes to a collection bucket hanging off the side of the tank, with a tap in the bottom. Worm rum on tap, lots of it.

The tank also extends the rear greenhouse wall by a few feet, adds thermal stability to a microhabitat back there, and has support for running chicken fencing off it.

My attempts at housing lizards has had success. Log piles with plants shading them is all I needed. These double as fungi logs. Will have shitakes and other species on these sites eventually. Lizards found all over the place now, migrating out from the centres of the piles, need a few more microhabitats for them, a well placed small log in a depression a couple of metres away from one had a skink living there only a few days later.

Just build it, they will come. Build it wrong, their absense is telling.

 

[MrFista]

More habitat, and a bit of stacking.

The 9 square yards underneath where I put my clothes line are richer than everything around them that lacks bird perching cover above. This happened fast, a matter of between one and two months... nice. Birds sit and they shit and it's free goodness. It's a shame this clothesline has such a solid base, but I can certainly learn from this. You don't need a dovecote or pigeons if you have enough wild birds in your trees, you just need perches above the garden. The portable T perch in the permaculture videos would work perfectly. For those who haven't seen the video, birds perch someplace, then shit, then return to the dovecote/nest. They want somewhere clear of obstacles and safe so they can check outthe area. Somewhere safe and clear to perch - like a T planted in your garden where you need fertiliser.

The thrush I made friends with months ago comes right up within a couple of feet and picks off grubs as I disturb them when working. It loves it when I flood the swales it chirps and prances and flicks water about and leaps from swale to swale. Two blackbirds joined in the swale antics last time. Looking forward to some summer rains there'll be a party out there.

Where I am placing the tank, although in shade for 90% of the day, is one of the dryest spots on the section, with the shelter of the worm bin with runoff system on top it will be even drier. Located next to this is the lizards log hang out.

I extended the log system across to under half of the tank. There is now a little tunnel network under 10" logs for them with several entries and exits, several wee hollows and more. This is a very strong base for the tank on the side where the height needed to be brought up and now it doubles as extended habitat for lizards directly beside the vegetable garden. I will finish the tank then place a couple of sunning rocks for them, close to their tunnels so they can run if they need to. I am wondering if I put a pipe from their housing to the middle of the veges, if they'd use it?

I have to be careful I don't set up a highway for worm consumption, lizards are great at getting access to things better double check the bin...

So now I'll have a habitat under the tank and a habitat on top of it, One side of it is greenhouse, the other two sides are flowers herbs plums passionfruit tree tomatoes comfrey and other unidentified species (many plants to go yet) with logs piled underneath, all this edging the path access which directly joins the swale/path system with the vegetable gardens surrounding.

Damn I love gardening, it gets very hot out, I love sitting in here in the cool getting stoned and writing about gardening too.

 

[Floralfaction]

and I love sitting in here in the warmth getting stoned and reading about your garden!

thanks for sharing
many blessings

 

[MrFista]

Well, the tanks in place. What was immediately obvious was it needs plants covering the front face. I have shade cloth there which looks tidy enough while I decide. Anyone with suggestions it is a face that gets (lots of) afternoon sun only, I'm looking for a climber, preferably edible, with perennial leaf cover.

The tank being moved has made a corridoor for moving chickens from front to back without being in the garden. Pretty happy with that too. This also completes the first stage of the 'chicken perimeter patrol', where the chicken run circles most of the garden - a physical barrier for pests and weeds. Going to make a wee tractor for them too so I can put them on specific spots when I want it intensely ferted. Watched insects drop in the guppy pond for a one hour period... it's science! Enough to feed the 40 of them in that time frame alone. Aphids, roaches, a spider, several tiny unidentified species. The fish population should boom out there, and the plants getting watered (treated) from this source look great.

I want more water outside eventually. A duck pond above the orchard if I can pull it off. Plenty to do in zones 1 and 2 yet.

Animals really benefit the garden when you are trying to avoid fertiliser and pesticides etc. Until recently I had no idea how to mix it up but it's actually very easy. Of course, you need to net the berries. I throw the tops (with some berry attached) to the thrush when I'm grazing, it loves them. If I give it a whole berry it lets out a series of excited chirps and takes off with it. It eats the wee bits and waits for more.

Every day I plant something, or sow some seeds. Friends visit countryside farm stores for me and bring me old school apples, yams, and other things to try grow. I get stoned and mix my labels up and then it's guesswork on what is what, especially adding flowers now, I haven't a clue about most flowers. But as you go you learn... Graze some borage flowers, the whole thing take it off the furry bit it comes off whole, pop those in your mouth YUM. Nutty tiny crunchy centre with sweet nectar and silky petals.

 

[jaykush]

awww fAWK i had all this shit typed out and its gone now.....let me try and make it short

love the bird friend. i have them here too. lots of them. i hope to one day make a mutual relationship with a species somehow. like those birds in Africa that take the men to honey.

the chicken tunnel... i am going to be doing this soon too. i have an idea to tie a nice bundle of kale on a string and pull it through to the new area a few times. once a few of them trust it the rest will follow like the dumb birds they are. what were you planning on using as a temp. tunnel?

ill have to re read those posts again and come back lol.

 

[MrFista]

Temp tunnel - I have bamboo poles attached to lengths of shade cloth and various places on the section (on trees, on buildings) with bits of pipe in the ground and loops of rope appropriately situated above them. Bulldog clips are the rest of the 'temp fencing kit'. Roll excess fence onto bamboo to desired length, clip to stop it running, and place base of pole in pipe hole then loop rope over top. In and out in seconds, move the run in a minute.

I can chop and change these in several ways making areas for chickens to run about. But with run space in front, and out back... I needed to create the 'tunnel' down the side to keep them out of the garden. It's tempting to make one massive run but then they might concentrate their 'efforts' where I don't need it.

Had a huge clean up today, under house and all over section where things have accumulated. So much stuff I had to make a plan to deal with it. Categorised most into tools, garden tools, pots and garden goops, building timber, char and firewood timber, pond and aquaponics, then misc, and rubbish, very little actual rubbish after several years, good.

So why am I noting this - it fits with the whole energy deal. I made a plan so the stuff I use most often is right there, and the stuff I ignore is down the back shelves, and the stuff inbetween... I reckon without my plan I'd have spent days trying to work out what goes where walking things backwards and forwards trying to find homes for everything all at once. I think in the future I'll spend a lot less time finding things. Having ten jobs on the boil is my style, but it's nice to have some semblance of order! Planning's great, saves me a lot of time and energy.

Mowed my lawn out front. Man I hate mowing lawn. 64 square yards of potential garden in prime sun but no decent water supply - yet. I have citrus and a couple natives out there, plans for a few (dozen) more varieties in future.

 

[jaykush]

Temp tunnel - I have bamboo poles attached to lengths of shade cloth and various places on the section (on trees, on buildings) with bits of pipe in the ground and loops of rope appropriately situated above them. Bulldog clips are the rest of the 'temp fencing kit'. Roll excess fence onto bamboo to desired length, clip to stop it running, and place base of pole in pipe hole then loop rope over top. In and out in seconds, move the run in a minute.

ok im really baked right now but let me see if i get this, i think i got it for the most part. but what keeps the shade cloth from collapsing down. what are the loops of rope?

I can chop and change these in several ways making areas for chickens to run about. But with run space in front, and out back... I needed to create the 'tunnel' down the side to keep them out of the garden. It's tempting to make one massive run but then they might concentrate their 'efforts' where I don't need it.

i wouldn't make one massive run, youll be MUCH better off making a few smaller runs, and moving them every other day or once a week. if you have one big run they will as some people say "always eat desert first"(your veggies, prime weeds) leaving a lot of stuff there( weeds, bugs, etc). then they poop, scratch, scratch poop and then you move them, the area gets time to recover and regrow before they get back to fresh growth.

another thing is when they clip the tops of the grass and weeds, the plant responds by killing off portions of its root system to equalize the root to shoot ratio. in turn creating organic matter in the soil. some people do this with cows and other animals and turn some piece of shit land into land with a ft of fertile topsoil fast. we do a similar system here and you can tell, the areas that are penned in and rotated are much lusher than the native area.

 

[MrFista]

Ah - thought my explanation was lacking...

Say you have a wall (or tree, some support with height). A small length of pipe is hammered into the ground where the base of the bamboo slots in. About 6 feet above it there is a piece of rope, a wee loop, attached to the same structure which slips over the top of the bamboo, thus holding it there. On the runs where the length between supports is shorter than the fencing section, the excess can be rolled and then clipped to the bamboo support.

Got my first lot of 'clover clippings' yesterday. Loads of clover seed in it I spread it all out over the front I want for garden eventually. Just went out to feed fish - it's so tidy out there, organised chaos, it looks kind of cottage garden in places, neat. Might even get time to add some artwork if I feel so inspired.

 

[jaykush]

i got it now, i was being stoner for a moment.

 

[MrFista]

Been pondering all day. Reading for a couple of days.

My terra preta soil continues to perform without fertiliser inputs. The plants greened up as soon as they hit the soil. I only let it rest one week between plantings this time. Three consecutive grows, no ferts, only mulch which is mainly grass, cannabis leaves, and tree leaves with a few handfuls of dandelion and a sprinkling of other herbaceous species all just sprinkled on top. I figure I must have free living N fixers in the soil now. Just don't know what type.

Soil building takes a relatively short time in nature but for us a couple of hundred years is a bit much to wait. The formation of stable organic matter can be a lengthy process.

Peat is extremely old I think this really helped 'seeding' my inital char soil. Char itself.. "The most stable humus is that formed from the slow oxidation of black carbon, after the incorporation of finely powdered charcoal into the topsoil. This process is at the origin of the formation of the fertile Amazonian Dark Earths or Terra preta de Indio." (Leihmann 2004 Amazonian Dark Earths).

Then I found a whole bunch of stuff in Soil & Tillage Research about no till systems increasing soil organic carbon, aiding soil aggregation, preserving free living N2 fixers, and more. Worms influencing subsoil aggregation (biochar makes worm populations explode), worms creating zones of influence similar to a rhizosphere (Soil Ecology, Lavelle - this is the book from the soil biology permaculture lecture that the lecturer was holding).

Much to read yet (lavelle is 600 plus pages) but am seeing so much of this tie in. Chars aromatic ring structures provide an interface similar to humic compounds in many respects their oxidation creates humus, and as Leihmann points out the most stable humus.

When combining no till, char and surface mulch the synergy of the three seems greater than the parts. Microbial innoculation with EM, castings, compost, and compost teas must also be taken into account. Soil is often decribed by it's chemistry and physics, the biology relatively untouched. I know nothing of soil physics (I think?), but know from the literature that char enhances both soil biology and chemistry, and if porosity, CEC, water retention etc are physics, that too.

The concept of a garden as an ecosystem is relatively new to western thinking. To me there's a definate pattern to sustainable agricultural practise - carbon. Applying and retaining carbon based materials.

 

[MrFista]

My attitude to rain has changed with the arrival of the new swales. Now I'm actively willing it to happen instead of trying to avoid it. I think of vitality - flushes of growth and storage for future when I see rain clouds now, I see animals cared for, cleaned air, fresh smells.

When I moved in here I actively engaged in draining water off the property. I redirected my faults (drainage) yesterday, another potential 17 000 annual gallons to work it's way through the land and gardens instead of run off into the ocean.

I'm not the only life form on this section that needs water, how ignorant of me to be unaware of the fungi insects birds lizards flowers hedgehogs mosses lichens ferns trees and more that used that water before I came here.

All these life forms perform services for me, I am no longer blissfully unaware, I'm a bit humbled by how much stupid I've swallowed over the years, and blissfully aware.