Addiction.

[penguins]

Ok, I think this may be a touchy topic here. Just keep in mind that I don't pass judgement and I *definately* don't want to start a flamewar, I'm just looking for some honest discourse.


So lately I've been going through alot of psychological hoo-hah (I don't really feel like elaborating, and frankly the details are unimportant) and the subject of addiction came up in discussion with my therapist. She suggested, and I think I *might* agree, that I was addicted to cannabis. (psychological vs physiological aside, addiction *is* addiction; gambling addictions are just as real as nicotine addiction) So, also at her suggestion, as well as a friend's, I quit smoking altogether about 3-4 months ago; after many unsuccesful attempts to merely "cut back". I would smoke alot (at least in her, my friends, and my opinion; I know that others here would say otherwise) around 3-4 average sized bowls of the good stuff a day; I would usually spread it out, and remain at a pretty consistant level of stoned-ness for the whole day. Overall I don't really feel like my quality-of-life has changed all that much, for better or for worse; but I can't shake the feeling that something is missing, or that maybe I shouldn't have stopped. Sometimes I'll find myself getting drunk by myself for no reason now, I suppose as some kind of replacement; i never would do that before. But yet at the same time, I know that there were quite a few times when I was smoking irresponsibly (before a big test, before meeting non-smoker friends or family, while i was doing nitty-gritty, definatly not-for-pot homework, etc.) I know that my lungs are probably thanking me for my decisions (I know there isn't very good research, but inhaling smoke is generally not good for you); but there are lots of things that I do that are bad for me (eating unhealthy, drinking, not exercising, etc.) and, for lack of a better term, I feel like perhaps my spiritual health is suffering. I know that I was "addicted" in the sense that I had had trouble stopping and cutting back and maybe using it at the right times; but now I'm thinking about prescription pharmeceuticals and wondering what the real difference is. Maybe I just miss my girls too much (I took down the closet) and I don't know that I can start growing and smoking "responsibly". I'm not even sure i know what "responsibly" means anymore; especially with all the propaganda that gets thrown around (from *both* sides of the fence) concerning cannabis. My grades were the worst they have ever been this last semester, and I'm not sure if it has to do with quitting smoking (sometimes i don't feel like i have a reward mechanism anymore) or just because my classes were hard/stupid, or because i'm coming down hard with college-senioritis (definately more serious than the highschool variety). I *feel* very strongly that i don't need to quit altogether and that should just start and try to control things; but i'm truly scared of a destructive addiction (and i know that it's possible) and rationally i think that it's something that really shouldn't matter all that much, so I might as well just take a sabbatical just to see both sides of the fence, as it were; but I still just can't fight the feeling that i'm doing something "wrong" here.

This got pretty longwinded, nonsensical, and ranty and I'm not sure what kind of responses I'm looking for here, but anything is certainly welcome; whether you want to encourage (either way), empathise, debate (civilly!), or just discuss.


(wow, I haven't been back here in a while. hey there everybody!)

 

[Guest]

do your parents pay for your therapist or do you(i ask for a reason not being a smart ass)...i think what ever you feel in your heart you should do..that is exactly what you should do...you live with the decisions you make...change them in what ever way you feel fit and be happy my friend today is the only thing guaranteed...peace

 

[Silver Bullet]

but now I'm thinking about prescription pharmeceuticals and wondering what the real difference is.

What do you mean by this? Why are you wondering what the difference is between cannabis and prescription pharmaceuticals? There are many types of pharmaceuticals so you asked an incredibly general question that cant be answered.

You have a psychological addiction to cannabis. Don't compare your cannabis addiction to a nicotine addiction. A cannabis addiction is not as "real" as a nicotine addiction. A nicotine addiction is physical. Your addiction is in your head.

-remove all the things that remind you about smoking from your view
-have other stuff to do so that when you're bored, you dont fall into the pot craving.

Quitting weed isn't easy. When you feel like you're vulnerable you need to have something else to occupy your brain.

 

[HCSmyth]

Check out this link:

http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/radio/index.htm

Click on the "Addiction Does Not Exist" MP3, they have an interesting discussion with a Dutch doctor.

 

[green_grow]

there are many different addictions ... i have heard that we can become addicted to people and my own personal opinion is that food can be addictive. for me, my nicotine addiction was becoming a destructive behaviour that i had to quit . is your addiction a destructive one, or is it's net effect on you a positive one ?

 

[Sinfuldreams]

If I stop smoking for 3 days all the nagging..." I Wish I had some pot" Stops.
The 1st 3 days can be hard. But I found after the 3rd day, I'm cool not smoking.

You have to ask your self "Is my smoking hurting my life?" Lost Jobs due to smoking, sour relationships, are you LAZY after a toke? Do your kids or wife or GF hate you.
Do you act harsh or do stupid things when high? Spend all your money or time or most of it to find herb? Been in trouble with the LAW?

After that ask what matters in your life, and if none of those things apply, your most likely ok. Do YOU want to quite or are you just doing it because everyone is putting pressure on you?

If you really want to stop then do so! It's up to you and no one else.
Like my Old Man told me once.... " It's a do it your self project."
Give your self 3 days and by day 2 it will be better. You can quite smoking pot fair easy. Best of Luck with what ever you do.

Sin

 

[DailyTHC]

Man I've dealt with this in my life, I definitely feel you. I questioned my cannabis use deeply after getting real burnt out this summer going to bonaroo and enjoying what I purchased there the next few weeks. In fact my psychiatrist just told me that if I wouldn't go to TREATMENT for my 'cannabis addiction/dependence', she would no longer see me. I said "goodbye and thanks for wasting my time during our last visit, I have a bowl to smoke" (Just kidding, but I didn't go to treatment and am well umm, super happy). So I definately know what it feels like having someone scold you for your use of the herbs.

Whether or not you will get most ICMag members to go so far as to say cannabis is addictive/dependence-inducing, let me tell you that almost all mental health workers, educated doctors etc would classify it as so. Not for all people. Hell I know quite a few who can do much more addicting drugs occasionaly and with complete control. And Ive met others who would rather not eat so long as they have some weed. Semantics aside, your history, brain chemistry and a million other factors influence whether or not your use is/will become a problem. The fact that you say you get drunk by yourself NOW when you wouldn't BEFORE is called dual addiction (I think). That is, your replacing one with the other. This shows that your smoking may have been to the point that you were overdoing it. I will say that I feel alcohol is many times more dangerous/destructive than delicious marijuana.

But man 3-5 bowls isn't that much. But we are all different, so your 3 or 5 bowls might get you as fucked up as like 10 bong rips for me (I used to smoke like that). What I try (SO HARD) to do now that I did not before is to look at herb as a life-enhancer. I always want to be able to smoke at night, so I try not to blaze during the day. Or only if I am doing something exciting. But you gotta stop looking at it like "Ill smoke a bowl before I .... it will be easier yada yada." That will only make you more tied up with it nd the destructive thinking.

Sinful Dreams is so right. after three days you will barely crave at all. and I notice the more breaks I take, the easier it is to quit.

That said, and I am sorry for such a long post, If you start smoking again look at it as a way to enjoy your life more, not to get through it. I gaurantee your attitude and even the amount you smoke will be so much healthier.Then, you'll be chilling with no worries, like me

 

[Guest]

That mp3 on addiction is interesting. Basically Peter Cohen says addiction is a 18th century term that carried over from the idea of possession. Like, people were posessed with demons, and this was the cause of their behavior.

So, if you look at your case, in relation to this mp3, and your use of cannabis:

You seemed to have a frequent use of cannabis. This was your relationship with it. Just like having a relationship with a girl, but yours was Miss Mary Jane. I bet you liked having this relationship. Sometimes it would get in the way of other areas of your life. Kinda like girls. Lets say you want to watch a football game but your girlfriend wants you to go out with friends instead. You chose to entertain your relationship with mary jane right before doing homework, which affected your performance on homework.

I really like Peter Cohen's idea, because it really makes sense, and kinda opens up ideas of drug use again. I think with cannabis, the stronger your relationship, the more you use it, the relationship dynamics change.

If someone smoked 10 joints a day, they would have a very strong relationship with cannabis. Or any drug. Peter Cohen says addiction does not exist, its just society doesn't accept someone to have a frequent usage of any drug. We only accept someone that has a lighter relationship with drugs... such as for recreational or pleasurable usage.

To the OP, I have been where you were before. I believed my usage was medical, but I would stay at a nice little buzz throughout my entire waking hour. This was my relationship with mary jane.

Whats interesting though becuase when I stopped using it, that was when my relationship with my girlfriend ended. So, I wonder how other relationships in life, or just certain things in your life, are kinda built on, or contingent, with your relationship with marijuana. For instance, its alot harder for me to get into playing guitar and singing when I'm not high... because I sort of only did that when I was high for awhile. I wonder if this would come back to me if I stayed sober for awhile. Tonight I was playing guitar and just was not really inspired at all...

Anyways, my brain is on fire with tons of thoughts now... I'm going to expore this Peter Cohen guy and see what more exactly his idea of addiction is... its pretty interesting.

 

[Guest]

Its funny. Just another example of this "relationship" view of addiction.

I agree its easier to quit cannabis when you do little mini-quits a couple times then just quit for good. You get used to not having a relationship with cannabis...

I think thats why the death of a loved one, or the complete breakup of a loved one is so hard. There is no little mini-quits first. Its just... full on relationship to.... NO RELATIONSHIP.

I understand the idea of say, looking at your life and your usage of herb. Is it making you lazy? etc etc. But what if the advantages of the feeling you get with herb are WORTH the fact that your lazy? So the positive feeling of being high, is greater than the negative fact that you are more lazy, and not working on things.

I understand the idea here and all...just want more clarification. I'm not sure I believe there is no physical addiction... but its interesting to think about. Like thinking about someone "addicted" to crack cocaine. To this person, his relationship with crack cocaine is more important to feeding his baby. But if addiction is not true... then how would you explain this. Like... what if he stopped smoking crack, would he all of a sudden realize how he couldn't see how important his behavior was and that he should have been feeding his baby? Can drugs really warp your mind that much? Are drugs evil, and cannot be trusted?

Just more questions.

 

[IdntknowMarlbro]

im addicted to water.

 

[Guest]

Here is Peter Cohen's thesis, Drugs as a Social Construct.

http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.drugs.toc.html

 

[HCSmyth]

Well its definitely a personal thing, but as long we are thinking about it and examining people like Cohen's thesis we can't be too far off the mark when it comes to addiction. And how the concept of addiction relates to our own personal circumstance.

 

[Guest]

HCSmyth, can you elaborate?

 

[HCSmyth]

I just think that if you are thinking/questioning addiction you are taking steps towards being and acting responsible. That by examining how the relationship you have with cannabis effects your life is a good thing. I would ask my self, similar questions if it were another substance that I was taking for a health condition.

Secondly, I think there is something to Cohen’s assertion that using a substance is like a relationship with a girlfriend or boyfriend in many ways. Again you need to ask your self how that relationship effects your life.

 

[Guest]

Actually this is Cohen's article on addiction.
http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.addiction.html

 

[Guest]

Oh okay, I see what your saying. Yeah it makes sense.

 

[smokeymacpot]

its a mental addiction, not a physical addiction.
ive had times where ive smoked constantly untill all weed is gone and then ive had times where ive just done it before going to bed or smoking it just at the weekends.
its down to the situation that your in, if you have a busy life then you have less time to smoke it or you cant smoke it because it would hinder whatever your doing. if you have lots of spare time and nothing else to do or your feeling down or bored then you will likely smoke alot more.

because your taking steps to fix your problems, you need to decide where your going. are you able to just smoke abit in the evening/weekends ? do you have something to keep you busy during the day? (job or school e.t.c)

 

[Old Man Time]

hell im not just addicted....lol....im dependent!

 

[penguins]

wow! I didn't expect such an overwhelming response so quickly. Thanks everybody.

To hit some (random, out of order, and disconnected) points that have been touched on:

Psychological vs Physiological dependance:
I honestly don't believe that there is truly a distinction between the two. We know so very little about how the brain works, when somebody says "it's all in your mind" there is some physical neurological process that gives rise to those thoughts; mind is an emergent phenomenon of the brain. Emotions are primarily chemical and hormonal. I certainly agree that certain drugs have vastly different physical affects on physiology and certain addiction/withdrawal mechanisms are more apparent or physically harmful (abrupt alcohol withdrawal can very directly cause heart failure; opiate receptors are relatively well understood; nicotine addiction is very apparent). I also know that for the first few days that I quit smoking I definately felt very physical withdrawal symptoms (slightly jittery/jumpy, decreased appetite, moody/irratable). Until you can even begin to define the boundary between mind and brain, you cannot tell me in which one an addiction lies.

Pharmeceuticals and other drugs (as related to my current situation):
I'm not sure which pharms i would be prescribed; I'm making an apointment with a psychiatrist simply because i think perhaps anti-depressants are an avenue that could be beneficial and should be explored. As far as getting drunk goes, it's not nearly as often I used to smoke ( maybe once a week at it's height ). I guess I just wonder why I should be switching drugs, or if i would need the pharms if i could merely control my usage. I know that I have some issues to work out, and i need to be able to think clearly about them; i'm just not sure if pot was helping me do that and I was simply overdoing it, or if pharms might help level me out enough to deal with them.

Are the drugs causing problems, or am i turning to drugs because of the existing problems, or are they seperate issues? and how does that answer affect the course of action?

Frequency of Usage:
I know that many of you think that the amount/frequency of usage that i'm talking about is rather low, and i would tend to agree. But it's primarily the *pattern* of usage which i'm worried about. Also, I tend to be pretty chemically sensitive, and I can pretty blitzed off of one bowl; I'm tipsy after one beer and *drunk* after two.

Somebody also asked about payment for my therapist: I'm the one paying for it.

and just to clarify: I have actually officially been "clean" for 3-4 months (except for a single episode about a month ago at a party). I could definately pass any drug test (probably even hair, if i shaved). I pretty much sold much stash and quit cold turkey one day; it was fairly uneventful at the time, don't even remember the exact date or even what the last bowl i smoke was.


Drug use as a Relationship:
I think that the "relationship" viewpoint is a very interesting and valid one. I often would use a term that (i believe) was coined by Alexander Shulgin in reference to psychoactives and refer to marijuana as an "ally". Our relationship was definately not a positive one at the time, and that was why we "broke up"; so now i feel a sense of loss and wonder if I should give the relationship another go, or if we're simply a plant and a human that don't work well together, either temporarily or otherwise.



Also, I truly hope that i'm not hogging the attention, I simply have the most experience with my own personal situation. I want this to be an open and mutual discussion (perhaps like a Cannabis Anonymous, but without a set goal of quitting or even necessarilly having a "problem" to solve).

 

[budrezin]

you are addicted to your lifestyle. change your lifestyle including your friends & you will beat your addiction. warning !!!! you will NOT necessarily be happier.