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ACE's Panama vs Dr Greenthumb's Panama Red?
- Thread starter billyblog
- Start date
For the record I got no grudge or anything against ace... My opinion of there panama is based off growing many pure south American sativas collected over the last 40+ years... I'm making my assumptions based solely on experience and ace though had similarities in sone categories was nuthin close in its effect, was nothing like I know and love... I don't know what they did or added but No plant done in 9 wks even if "pure" will have the special qualities its longer flowering plants will. I'm under the impression the line LMN shared with them nay of had his secrete touch of sumthin in it they took what they had and ran with it crossing and selecting away from long flowering pure lines and towards his... Reef also had genetics passed around there direction... Now if one of the lines they used was his there's more to talk about being added in the pot... I believe there's sumthin added in there lines whether or not they knew it or not n they worked it that way.... Not a miracle 9wk pure pheno out of no where...
I love south AmerIcan n Asian sativas , have a few packs of Malawi but have 0 experience with pure African genetics, grew a few crossed lines golden tiger was nice but won't comment on the Malawi line at all ,, as i am no authority on them... Never been to Africa and have no plans to ever visit that part of the world...
If you want true pure sativa from ace stick with there Thai and oldtimers lines. Punt rojo n mango biche, but if you want sumthin close that will grow and play nice with everything else in ya flower room there panama is not a bad choice, just don't trying to join the ultimate sativa growers club with you 10wk and done easy to grow plants... Growing the real takes patience n skill that is incredibly rare today #100days or better.
I bet that line is not new at all I bet he had it for many years in his personal stash for his headstash only and decided to make it public... I would love to hear what he has to say on it.. Does Dr greenthumb post anywhere or have ig??
Now my cuts high is intense , very psychedelic, n happy/motivational but don't think you can accomplish what u set out to do... Best I can describe it is you smoke want to do something go do it feel happy think you did a great job go back the next day and see your work... The square box u thought u built perfect and are so proud of is a fukin triangle or looks like a fukin stop sign and instead of 1 you have burned up all your material building 4 or 5 wrong pieces ... And your there looking at it trying to figure out what happened... Well PANAMA happened...
^^ Hehe. That is what the review by Gruber said in other words. Sounds like the same cut. Greenthumb does not post much and replied to my emails only once and did not answer some questions I had, only one question of 3. Not gonna get much out of him I think. I asked his buddy Dr. Gruber to see where he got the PR, what the story was from Greenthumb. I assume Greenthumb will talk to him as he promotes his strains or seems too.
anyway https://www.aceseeds.org/en/brands/ace-seeds/panamapackcrisfem.html
i read this description, after it, it is clearly stated these seeds are from selected parents F6 f8 f10 etc.. hybridized, feminised, reversed.. stressed the hell out of them or whtever happened to them..
maybe these are the stations on stable lines with certain characteristics ?
THE GENUINE PANAMA RED ADAPTED TO MODERN INDOOR GROWING AND TEMPERATE LATITUDES. second sentence
if these were unselected landraces you should buy it per kilogram, not x 10 pcs per packs, long work to select your preferred type and keep the hope alive
i read this description, after it, it is clearly stated these seeds are from selected parents F6 f8 f10 etc.. hybridized, feminised, reversed.. stressed the hell out of them or whtever happened to them..
maybe these are the stations on stable lines with certain characteristics ?
THE GENUINE PANAMA RED ADAPTED TO MODERN INDOOR GROWING AND TEMPERATE LATITUDES. second sentence
if these were unselected landraces you should buy it per kilogram, not x 10 pcs per packs, long work to select your preferred type and keep the hope alive
In my case I'm basing my comments on my own and humble experience and observation after that a decade ago I've decided to focus on studying Cannabis landraces in order to have a better understanding of the genus evolution, how modern cultivars evolved and where are they actually coming from. You need to know where are things coming from in order to know where to look at.
Since I've always had a certain thing for african genetics (they used to be so common here in Spain), I've managed to grown up to 5 different cultivars from the so called Malawi Gold, including versions from African Seeds, Afropips, Greenhornet Seeds, Dr Greenthumb and even Seedsman (the infamous African Buzz), some of them being the most unique ones ever released. My goal was finding a good one for my own breeding projects. I've aso had the chance to grow many other African imported landraces as Zambian, Ethiopian, Congolese, Angolese, Nigerian, Swazi, Durban Poison, Lesotho, Zamal, Central African Republic, Gambia, Senegal, Ghana, Cabo Verde and so on. Other close friends have grown even different Malawi lines available from Holy Smokes, Seeds of Africa or even Malberry, which provides even a more useful insight on understanding the South African genepool and how true African ganja cultivars look like.
I have also tested the so called Killer Malawi cut in Spain that actually originated ACE's version and many friends have grown them in seed form too, so I have a fairly good idea on how the hybrid evolved. I've seen many different growers complaining about this same question here and there, which leads many to that same conclusion. Recently even a grower opened a thread here asking about the strange purple plants he found at his Malawi package and this wasn't the first case either. So I'm not inventing anything really, it's just information anybody can see. I think you are only drawing more attention to an issue that was never the subject of this discussion and was mentioned only by chance.
Also there's no need to travel to Malawi, Jamaica or Mexico to have a good understanding of those cultivars, in fact nowadays you won't even find good representations of those on the spot, since hybridization took over all the traditional Cannabis producing countries and it's private growers or locals those who really have access to them and to old cultivars they've preserved. You just need to research on Cannabis history and have enough contacts to source legitimate genetics to make your own conclusions. I was discussing this recently, since even the well connected rastas who were working for Phylos weren't unable to find any good old Lambsbreads left on the islands, while some passionate growers have actually preserved those outside Jamaica for many years. So do I need to travel to Jamaica to have a good idea on what the island has to offer? I don't think so, since even the DNA testing from Phylos has backed up everything we've been suggesting after our own research.
Same with the Panama, I've collaborated with CBG in the past and got all the info on how the Panama hybrid was originally created from first hand by Charlie Garcia, so I'm basing my observations on that perspective provided by the original breeder and creator of that hybrid, along with the reviews from many other growers I've been gathering through the years. There are loads of pictures all over the forums.
In fact the Panama'74 strain that served as one of the 3 main foundations for it was sourced from my good friend Green Grocer, also colleage at the Collective Vibes, who sourced it and shared it back then. We actually observed how the hybrid kept changing and getting more adapted to the indoor and commercial cultivation trends. This was especially true with many of the plants distributed by this company. Nothing wrong about that, probably that may suit most growers but some breeder's or some other growers won't find a true purebred or tropical cultivar here if that's what they are looking for. So it shouldn't be perceived as that.
I have spoken to Billybog a few times and I consider him a friend and another sativa connoisseur, he did a great reproduction on the Malawi Gold from Afropips actually so he knows what's up. Since he was mentioning this observations on the Panama hybrid I couldn't say anything but confirm what he said and add some more information I've gathered on Dr Greenthumb's works after he asked on Dr Gt's Panama Red. Obviously he was dissapointed because he was expecting a true Panaman sativa rather than a indoor oriented hybrid based on Caribbean genetics. I guess if he had all this information before, he would be able to find whatever he was looking for with more accuracy, avoiding any dissapointments. That's what information forums are for.
Pretending that any 9-11 week commercial hybrid is a good representation of a traditional imported or legendary tropical landrace from the 70s is plain misinformation. No denigration here, nobody attacked or even critizised anything, just pointing up some facts everyone is able to see and notice in fact, from what you can see in many different threads. Stoney917 was pointing that too. Turning that into a personal thing doesn't make any sense either.
The thing is that people was trying to denigrate Dr Greenthumb when my experience with his sativas was one of the bests I've ever had from a commercial seed company and I've felt like pointing this out and even providing pictures from Dr Gt's Malawi. Maybe the issue is that many people still doesn't know how a pure African or Panaman looks like, so in this case it's us or those who have the experience the ones who should be educating them on how hybrids vs untamed plants should look like and what to expect from each of them too.
I have big respect from you and I think I've cleared this on the last time we spoke after my disputed ban, I've followed your advice since then actually, even when I didn't agree with everything, so I think you are getting it all wrong this time since my posts are always based on verified information and true experiences from growers. Rather than what you suggested, it looks more like if someone is just trying to censor any negative comments and mix it or back it up with some personal issues or childish behaviour I don't really care about. Again and just for a record, nobody attacked anyone here, just random forum discussions for everyone's education. Each one makes its own conclusions.
Anyway plants always speak for themselves much louder than anyone and they will keep doing that, so the truth will be always out there, no matter how or where.
All right, time to move on,
Cheers.
I don't think that humility and objectivity match very well with your virtual personality Mustafunk.
You say that you have grown all these landraces. Is your attempt to grow tropical sativas outdoors like toy plants, in a northern rainy and cold climate, a way of proper research or to evaluate lines?
I highly doubt you have grown or at least grown properly the old Malawi Killer to be able to appreciate her. The Old Malawi Killer was only shared in a small close circle. I also highly doubt you have grown from the Old Killers to the New Killers in seed form to really be able to appreciate the improvement and the best qualities of the line and all the hardwork behind this strain. And surprisingly, the only comments you seem to retain and spread about our genetics are only the bad ones, while there also hundreds of positive reviews about our strains not far from here, in our room.
Many people has contributed to the development of our Panama, from the local growers who used to grow the different 3 Panama lines involved in the hybrid, to GreenGrocer who started with the Panama Green and Panama 74 lines, who later were passed to kaiki, who really did the most important job on the development of the strain, i will never deny that, it's clearly stated in the Panama thread and in our Panama Breeders's Pack description. For your information, which you seem to forget quickly, i have grown Panama 3 way hybrid since 2004, i have bred with her alone from F6 to F10-F12 new regular generations, from 2008 until today. I did a huge improvement on the strain on 2014, finding real elite parental plants and improving both regular and feminized versions of the strain, and the proof is clearly documented by many growers around the world. Most probably you won't say a good thing about it despite all your objective research.
Secondly about Panama breeding, the goal with the breeding of the Panama strain was to try to capture the best sativa traits from these sativas in a plant that can easily be grown in modern standard by different skilled growers and in different climates, paying special attention to improve indoor adaptability, outdoor adaptability to outdoor growing in temperate climates, improve resin coontent, terpene content, cannabinoid content, etc …. and we are very happy with what we have achieved with Panama, i truely believe is the best central american sativa ever bred (and commerically released) in the last 15 years and all the info about the strain is in our room since 2006. We have other long flowering sativa strains that really perform like true tropical P1 generations like in the case of Oldtimer's Haze, Ethiopian or Honduras. You don't seem to undertand the big effect that different breeders can produce over a genepool over more than 10 generations.
The Vibes collective thing,or i smoked too much or maybe my memory is foggy: i remember Rahan, charlie, lagoutche and others, but not you or thcvhunter, and i was there since the collective was active until no longer was. So why are you using the now defunct Vibes collective name like if it was yours so most of the landraces and rarer lines are coming from your suppousedly circle of the 'holders of the truth and true moral' preservationists ?
You seem to be very polite in this last post but i know what you have been doing last week.
Your clear tactic you have using many times to discredit seedbanks and breeders is 'divide and win', you invented the histories like if you knew every detail and you were there when things happened and you know in person all the people involved, .... just to confront people inside a company, like you did past week with Crystalin and JGL with USC, what you did in the spanish forums when aeritos left Tropical or when you started to be against me in 2014 confronting charlie and us.
And this is happening since 2014, here in at ICMAg, in the spanish forums, publicly, privately, whenever you have the chance you will have the time to discreedit others, honestly i don't know what are your intentions and how is your real life, but you are pathetic.
A troll is a troll, no matter if the troll can write a sentence or a dissertation, it's still a troll.
You have been banned for trolling our room 2 years ago.
You violate TOU norm 4 for trolling and norm 6 for going off topic and discredit others whenevers you feel like, constantly.
Seriously, please move on and get a real life!
Don't be a second hand virtual person.
I applaud you guys for being a bit trollish and provocative to each other, simply because this way some interesting infos come out to us who don't have access to these infos nor are part of any circle of long time cannabis connoisseurs.
You all have my deepest respect, Mustafunk, Dubi, Sam and others...not only for your personal efforts with cannabis but for being present on ICMag and allowing us to open our "green" chakra of cannabis knowledge and appreciation towards the plant
Of course it would be cool if you also had max respect to each other, I believe you could be good friends in real life
Ok, enough trolling from me...
Cheers
You all have my deepest respect, Mustafunk, Dubi, Sam and others...not only for your personal efforts with cannabis but for being present on ICMag and allowing us to open our "green" chakra of cannabis knowledge and appreciation towards the plant
Of course it would be cool if you also had max respect to each other, I believe you could be good friends in real life
Ok, enough trolling from me...
Cheers
I was gonna weigh in, myself having extensive experience with landraces, heirlooms, and hybrids made from them. As well as having experience with ACE's lines over the years.
I was banned by Dubi for talking about how illegitimate ACE and Dubi are in ACE threads. So I was told not to talk about them in ACE forums.
But, This Is Not An ACE Thread
So why are we being attacked, censored, threatened again with a ban for speakingthe truth?
Because its BIG business.
ICMag runs on sponsors.
ACE/Dubi are sponsors. And they pay big money to ICMag to keep their story as the one that gets to stay on the site and anything and anyone that challenges their story gets banned and deleted.
Its public info, research how much ACE makes, above the table, per year selling seeds and the stories that sell those seeds.
Now you can see how there is this war over the truth and you can see who has the most to lose by the truth coming out.
Mustafunk does not have a seed company. He doesnt make money preserving seeds so he has no financial motivation to lie.
But because he does not make money doing this, he doesnt have the money to pay for a sponsorship spot here at ICMag and thus he gets threatened with yet another ban just because he is answering truthfully and even doing so in a non-ACE forum to not rock the boat.
Yet Dubi still has Gypsy Nirvana threatening Mustafunk and trying to discredit him.
Those of us in the preservation game were here before Dubi and know Mustafunk and the truth he shares. We also got to see the moves Dubi pulled to have this multi-million dollar a year business based off of Musta's and others' hard work on these lines.
Its unfortunate how Mafia-like all of this is - Dubi pulling the strings through his sponsorship funding of ICMag - but what most people don't understand is that the pot game is organized crime. This includes the seed business.
Price per gram of flower keeps falling, coming close to $1/gram. While price per seed keeps increasing. Lots of money at stake here.
Its a shame that one can follow the rules to speak the truth and help the community but because this truth threatens Dubi's multi-million dollar business, its being censored.
Like I said, I have a Lot to say on this issue but I wont because Im not allowed to because Dubi and his money run the show.
Already, Dubi has had all other members of Collective Vibes banned from ICMag forum, people who made the lines Dubi has hybridized and now sells for millioms a year.
Pease, please.
I was banned by Dubi for talking about how illegitimate ACE and Dubi are in ACE threads. So I was told not to talk about them in ACE forums.
But, This Is Not An ACE Thread
So why are we being attacked, censored, threatened again with a ban for speakingthe truth?
Because its BIG business.
ICMag runs on sponsors.
ACE/Dubi are sponsors. And they pay big money to ICMag to keep their story as the one that gets to stay on the site and anything and anyone that challenges their story gets banned and deleted.
Its public info, research how much ACE makes, above the table, per year selling seeds and the stories that sell those seeds.
Now you can see how there is this war over the truth and you can see who has the most to lose by the truth coming out.
Mustafunk does not have a seed company. He doesnt make money preserving seeds so he has no financial motivation to lie.
But because he does not make money doing this, he doesnt have the money to pay for a sponsorship spot here at ICMag and thus he gets threatened with yet another ban just because he is answering truthfully and even doing so in a non-ACE forum to not rock the boat.
Yet Dubi still has Gypsy Nirvana threatening Mustafunk and trying to discredit him.
Those of us in the preservation game were here before Dubi and know Mustafunk and the truth he shares. We also got to see the moves Dubi pulled to have this multi-million dollar a year business based off of Musta's and others' hard work on these lines.
Its unfortunate how Mafia-like all of this is - Dubi pulling the strings through his sponsorship funding of ICMag - but what most people don't understand is that the pot game is organized crime. This includes the seed business.
Price per gram of flower keeps falling, coming close to $1/gram. While price per seed keeps increasing. Lots of money at stake here.
Its a shame that one can follow the rules to speak the truth and help the community but because this truth threatens Dubi's multi-million dollar business, its being censored.
Like I said, I have a Lot to say on this issue but I wont because Im not allowed to because Dubi and his money run the show.
Already, Dubi has had all other members of Collective Vibes banned from ICMag forum, people who made the lines Dubi has hybridized and now sells for millioms a year.
Pease, please.
aside some personal rancune(not all people can love each other LOL), and conflict between socialism(not to sell landrace, as money is evil) and free market thinking(the money is only instrument, people are good or bad) I think the result of this thread is quite clear. Ace panama hybrid is so improved towards modern standards, that it is not suitable for people who are searching for old school panama red effect. of course for Ace it means no money from these people.
There is a lot of butt-hurt in this thread. I find it very ironic that people are complaining others are making money instead of them. Drips of envy and greed from the supposed righteous... So what if Ace sells millions in seeds? It obviously takes a fuck ton of work to make that happen and provide the level of customer service that they do. They make the seeds and sell them. That is the free market. And if you are only getting a $1 a gram, your weed fucking sucks, bro!
(1 $/g.?? Wow!here is 10€/g,and more....)
leaving the discussion aside between Mustafunk & ace,i really dont understand why to sell landrace seeds is a problem,really,the most important thing is that there is transparency about the genetics and the characteristics of the strain ...i have panama from ace,but as a collection,because honestly it's not my high favorite, but it's exactly how the seedbank describes it....
leaving the discussion aside between Mustafunk & ace,i really dont understand why to sell landrace seeds is a problem,really,the most important thing is that there is transparency about the genetics and the characteristics of the strain ...i have panama from ace,but as a collection,because honestly it's not my high favorite, but it's exactly how the seedbank describes it....
Here's some of the formula for the seed selling game as a whole...
1. Establish seedless cannabis as the gold standard.
2. Teach people to identify and remove males/hermaphrodites, all sources of pollen. Make them fear it even.
3. Sell only F1 seeds or plants no-one else can make.
4. Sell only feminised versions of those F1 seeds.
5. Reap the profits from all the suckers who are now seed buyers not makers.
1. Establish seedless cannabis as the gold standard.
2. Teach people to identify and remove males/hermaphrodites, all sources of pollen. Make them fear it even.
3. Sell only F1 seeds or plants no-one else can make.
4. Sell only feminised versions of those F1 seeds.
5. Reap the profits from all the suckers who are now seed buyers not makers.
Speaking as a seed bank customer and a landrace grower, when ever I buy seeds I have high hopes for them and I always try to get something special. In this country people get busted for ordering seeds so it's a massive risk! All those times when I bought a supposed landrace only for it to turn out looking like a hybrid, all that time invested and then lost, taking big risks in an illegal situation, it could all have been avoided if seedbanks were an honest business, or if we had a tool like Phylos Galaxy.
Well now we do! No more arguing about what is a pure sativa, if you're interested in the truth just type in the name of the strain and look it up! You'll be surprised. Or not.
Well now we do! No more arguing about what is a pure sativa, if you're interested in the truth just type in the name of the strain and look it up! You'll be surprised. Or not.
W
Water-
I think that you are full of bull shit.
you dont have extensive experiences with landraces or anything else you claim to be an authority on.
In the past you said you started growing ten years ago and that you now live in your car.
I don't see any attack, or threats or bans or censoring right now.......Looks to me to be about a lot of drama over little or nothing.....reminds me of some sort of breeder soap opera...
People seem to like soap-operas.
Carry on......
People seem to like soap-operas.
Carry on......
I feel so fortunate being around this part of the internet at this point in time.
While all these debates go on, we get to witness history as it happens
You'll have a bona-fide stake in future old-timer clubs/get together/forums.
While all these debates go on, we get to witness history as it happens
You'll have a bona-fide stake in future old-timer clubs/get together/forums.
I have yet to see a plant correctly grown by you or a proper presevation project achieved by you with your 'extensive breeding experience with landraces'. We all have only seen the cheap talk from a self claimed 'preservationist' for years.
ACE Seeds just pays here for a room and a banner, and at a very reasonable price, like dozens of other vendors do, we don't have any special threatment here in any way.
Both of you are doing enough by yourselves with your behaviour to get banned, and as far as i know you are still here freely throwing all your nonsense.
May i know where do you get this info ? Maybe i'm rich and i didn't know. I sell seeds, i don't sell stories or cheap talks.
You may find it a war, but it's not for me. Your 'truth' is not true, you simply talk about situations, people and lines that you don't know from first hand experience, with the only aim to hurt others and feed your ego. I don't know what are your intentions behind all these harrasment (whether there is financial motivation or not), and honestly i don't care, but what it is clear is that you are not acting properly. Both of you are not victims of this situation, you are the ones provoking all this with your constant trolling for years.
Is this a joke ? Who am i to ask Gypsy or other moderators how to moderate this place ?
Again with the Vibes collective thing. Have you been involved in Vibes collective to know what are you talking about ? Because I was there and i never see you. Who are the Vibes members that i have banned ? I have never banned anyone here neither i have had this privilege, neither i want.
I have never used any line shared at Vibes collective to release anything commercially through ACE Seeds. On the other hand, i was there helping growers to preserve lines and sharing my own landraces with them: like Kalinga, Sri Lanka or Chinese Yunnan just to name a few. I was at Vibes collective to help, not to get anything from others.
You don't know what you are talking about, you don't know me, you don't know the people who has worked or works in our company, you don't know how our company works, you are simply brainwashed. If you have any doubt about people being banned or leaving the forums please address your questions to the moderators of the site.
To the rest of the people here: I decided years ago to don't go out from ACE Seeds room unless i need to. And it happened only twice when i had to defend myself and my company from the trolling coming from these 2 clowns. I hope all this situation can come to an end so i can go back again to my room to help growers there.
I wish i had more time to reply growers in our room, faster and better, i just don't have enough time, but i do my best. And that's the only place (ACE Seeds room) where i feel completely confortable posting, it is not my intention to post in other rooms in these forums, so my posts can never be interpreted like i'm trying to convince or influence users to buy our seeds with my comments.
The work done at ACE Seeds is well documented by us and by objective grow diaries from growers from around all the world posting for years. Our strain descriptions are detailed, clear and honest, we never try to pretend to sell anything that doesn't match with the description of our strains. We share cannabinoid and terpene results of our lines and from the parental plants we use to produce our seeds, even our parental plants will be genetically analyzed at Phylos in the upcoming months/years to really show what they are.
We are very transparent about we do and about our breeding, and we explain in detail any change that could have been made to any line. If you can find another seed company that shares so much info about their lines and spend so much time with their customers please let me know.
And i never pretend that everyone like our seeds, and our seeds are probably not for everyone, our seedbank is not mainstream, we could be selling strains with a much more commercial profile instead of offering landrace and sativa hybrids of more than 12 weeks of flowering time. If you like our seeds good, if you don't like no problem, but this trolling campaing from these 2 persons and others brainwashed by them is unacceptable.
I think any adult here with a clear mind will be able to distinguish what is happening here.
Thank you. Have a good day everyone.
