Ace Strains and "Hot Soil?"

[Cryptlord9999]

Hey thought id put in my 2 cents here on "hot soils" and the Ace genetics. The "clawed" look Hatter could be from too much ammonia nitrogen, adding gypsum to the soil helps prevent this, though not always. The soil mix i use is as follows,
BASE MIX
2 gal Quality Organic Soil-mix (or good organic recycled soil mix)
2 gal Thoroughly Rinsed Coir (coconut fiber)
2 gal Perlite (small nugget size)
2 gal Earthworm Castings (fresh earthworm castings, and/or fresh compost works too)
AMENDMENTS
1½ cup Grow or Bloom ‘Pure’ by Organicare (or 1 cup 5-5-5)
½ cup Greensand
¾ cup Ground Oyster Shells (1 cup if no crushed oyster shells)
1½ cup Crushed Oyster Shells (optional)
½ cup Dolomite Lime (powdered)
1 cup Prilled (pelletized) Fast Acting Dolomite Lime
¼ cup Blood Meal (and/or High N Bird/Bat Guano 12-8-2 N-P-K if flowering 1/8 cup of each)
¼ cup (heaping) Feather Meal
1 cup un-steamed (granular) Bone Meal (like Whitney Farms brand)
½ cup Bulb Food (3-8-8 as one good N-P-K example)
¼ cup Soft Rock Phosphate (powdered)
½ cup (heaping) Gypsum (powdered)
½ cup Kelp Meal
4 cups (heaping) Composted Steer Manure (this inoculates your mix with specialized bacteria and primo organic matter)
½ cup Azomite granular (add an additional ¼ cup greensand if no Azomite)
1 cup Humic Acid Ore granular (like from Down to Earth brand)
1 cup Alfalfa Meal (or 2 cups pellets – make sure pellets are all organic no additives)
½ cup Rock Phosphate Granular (optional)
1 cup (heaping) organic rice (important for the good fungi in this soil-mix)

I have grown the Nepalese Jam in this soil mix (after "cooking" it) and had super killer results. The buds were ultra sticky and uber potent and pretty compact for a pure sativa. It smelled amazing and tasted even better! I have an un opened pack of the Purple Haze x Panama, have 15 seeds, cant wait to grow em =). I will probly use the same soil mix but im going to cut it with the base mix by 3 parts base mix to 1 part cooked hot soil to start and then when i transplant to my 1 or 2 gallon veg pots i might try it full strength depending on if it can handle it or not.

 

[Cryptlord9999]

Hey thought id put in my 2 cents here on "hot soils" and the Ace genetics. The "clawed" look Hatter could be from too much ammonia nitrogen, adding gypsum to the soil helps prevent this, though not always. The soil mix i use is as follows,
BASE MIX
2 gal Quality Organic Soil-mix (or good organic recycled soil mix)
2 gal Thoroughly Rinsed Coir (coconut fiber)
2 gal Perlite (small nugget size)
2 gal Earthworm Castings (fresh earthworm castings, and/or fresh compost works too)
AMENDMENTS
1½ cup Grow or Bloom ‘Pure’ by Organicare (or 1 cup 5-5-5)
½ cup Greensand
¾ cup Ground Oyster Shells (1 cup if no crushed oyster shells)
1½ cup Crushed Oyster Shells (optional)
½ cup Dolomite Lime (powdered)
1 cup Prilled (pelletized) Fast Acting Dolomite Lime
¼ cup Blood Meal (and/or High N Bird/Bat Guano 12-8-2 N-P-K if flowering 1/8 cup of each)
¼ cup (heaping) Feather Meal
1 cup un-steamed (granular) Bone Meal (like Whitney Farms brand)
½ cup Bulb Food (3-8-8 as one good N-P-K example)
¼ cup Soft Rock Phosphate (powdered)
½ cup (heaping) Gypsum (powdered)
½ cup Kelp Meal
4 cups (heaping) Composted Steer Manure (this inoculates your mix with specialized bacteria and primo organic matter)
½ cup Azomite granular (add an additional ¼ cup greensand if no Azomite)
1 cup Humic Acid Ore granular (like from Down to Earth brand)
1 cup Alfalfa Meal (or 2 cups pellets – make sure pellets are all organic no additives)
½ cup Rock Phosphate Granular (optional)
1 cup (heaping) organic rice (important for the good fungi in this soil-mix)

I have grown the Nepalese Jam in this soil mix (after "cooking" it) and had super killer results. The buds were ultra sticky and uber potent and pretty compact for a pure sativa. It smelled amazing and tasted even better! I have an un opened pack of the Purple Haze x Panama, have 15 seeds, cant wait to grow em =). I will probly use the same soil mix but im going to cut it with the base mix by 3 parts base mix to 1 part cooked hot soil to start and then when i transplant to my 1 or 2 gallon veg pots i might try it full strength depending on if it can handle it or not.

 

[Tiami]

hey Cryptlord nice receipe, best french cheffs wouldn't be ashamed of it how much it costs?

 

[Cryptlord9999]

If purchasing 50 lb+ bags of the starting materials at a time, making your own compost/worm castings and recycling your used soil mix like i do, then not much actually. I dont normally keep track of my input costs because its still a heck of a lot cheaper then what it would cost me to purchase cannabis on the black market. But i will say this, its wayyyyyy cheaper then using bottled organic nutrients. This is a "just add water" soil mix along with compost tea every 10-14 days. I also use some homemade soil "spikes" made from dry organic amendments, along with layering my soil. Also the quality of the final product with this soil mix and grow method is "supernatural", the taste and aroma is amazing and the essential oil/cannabinoid production is out of this world. The best part is the used soil mix is an excellent medium to use for starting seedlings with.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Sorry flushing probably isn't the right term. By flushing the soil I meant running a lot of water through it to rinse out some of the nutrients to prevent newborn plants from getting nutrient burn. I've been told that fox farms soil is rather "hot" out of the bag which has me concerned.

I've read that landrace sativas really don't like heavy nutes. The mix was fine for the usual nutrient hog dutch genetics but I worry its going to do a number on strains such as Destroyer and Nep Jam.

If you want to transplant into hot soil, the only way to do it put your hot soil in the pot, put a layer of light soil on top of it, put the plant on top of that and fill with more light soil.

Another method I'm using is to put the tranplant onto the bottom of the new pot, fill the sides with cool soil, put a small layer of cool soil on top, and then fill what space is left with hot soil.

As long as the roots have light soil to grow through, they'll be alright. The plant's roots have space to differentiate and grow into the hot soil at their own pace.

With the second method, roots will grow out of the stem, and the freshest (feeder) roots are always at the top of the pot, which you can then also easily top dress.

 

[The Hatter]

hi Hatter

glad to hear your plants are doing fine. this thread might be useful to many. you were sprouting your plants in potting soil, not seedling mix? guano is too hot for seedlings. it would be really useful if you could post soil nutrient values because there's no info on fox farm offical site. one thing I can say is that good potting soils don't need any adition for most plants. just feeding when needed.

It seems there was quite a bit of activity on this thread while I was away. To answer the question about the soil mix, I probably should have been a bit more clear earlier.

I was using Fox Farms Happy Frog and Ocean Forest mixed 50/50 strait from the bag. I didn't add any other nutrients to the mix nor did I fertilize at all, well at least for the first few weeks that I was having problems with burn anyway. The only thing I added was a good bit of pumice and perlite.

Sadly the Fox Farm bags don't list the quantities of the various ingredients or the nutrient values but I remember seeing perlite, earthworm castings, guano etc. as listed contents. From what I have read the Ocean Forest is their hottest potting soil and Happy Frog is much lighter stuff.

I have read many grower reports stating that Happy Frog is a good seedling/clone mix and even quite a few reports of the richer Ocean Forest being good for this also, but in most of theses cases the people were growing nutrient hungry "dutch" indica hybrids. My own experience showed me just how much strains vary in their needs. My results ranged from Dinefem Auto Cheese which loved sprouting in the mix to the Orient Express which was still clawing up weeks later. The Destroyer and Nep Jam were also burned but were quick to recover.

Thanks for all the tips. I like the idea of putting a cool layer on top for the seedlings to sprout in and hotter stuff deeper in the pot. That's going to be something I try next time.

Cryptlord's mix sounds like some amazing stuff.

I can now add that the Destroyer and Orient Exrpess both seem to pick up in their appetite very quickly after they get established. They went from burned to nutrient starved in about 4 weeks. I even starting getting serious yellowing etc. from the deficiencies. I was slow to recognize the cause due to the earlier burn and even suspected PH problems but they were just really hungry after all the soil flushing and no feedings.

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

And another thing - seedling soil. If you look at the root system of sprouted seeds, they consist of very fine, almost downey roots. The soil they grow into should be just as fine and light, to ensure 100% contact and good access to water and nutrients.

So I like to sprout them in dedicated seedling soil, usually very fine and light. I feed them with 0.2 EC of a P/K only bloomfood (no nitrogen), and root stimulator. When they have real leaves, I feed them with 0.1 EC of a veg nutrient added.

 

[Terroir]

And another thing - seedling soil. If you look at the root system of sprouted seeds, they consist of very fine, almost downey roots. The soil they grow into should be just as fine and light, to ensure 100% contact and good access to water and nutrients.

So I like to sprout them in dedicated seedling soil, usually very fine and light. I feed them with 0.2 EC of a P/K only bloomfood (no nitrogen), and root stimulator. When they have real leaves, I feed them with 0.1 EC of a veg nutrient added.

just planted 4 bangi haze and 4 nep jam into a mix 60 % seed raising mix , 35% worm cast and 5% organic compost from the shop. Heres hoping they do well.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

just planted 4 bangi haze and 4 nep jam into a mix 60 % seed raising mix , 35% worm cast and 5% organic compost from the shop. Heres hoping they do well.

Thumbs up to your grow.

Another thing I've found out is that the missing nutrient in soilless mixes is silica. I always add lavameal (alternatives are bentonite, glacial rockdust, azomite), which are mainly silica, and they provide a huge range of micro-nutrients. When plants have access to a lot of micronutrients, that also reduces the need for NPK.

 

[wingdings]

I like an even mix of peat, humus sources, and drainage, then I use oyster shell and d. Lime to set the ph in the correct range. I feed with espoma plant tone and extra alfalfa off the bale.
I have noticed that the Panama and Malawi lines like extra food, and reward you for the extra feeding with bountiful harvests.

 

[xmobotx]

living soil {as opposed to 'organic'} is much more forgiving w/ these kinds of things

the use of innoculants {CT, EWC, michorhyzae, ET AL} can help though it is difficult to quantify the degree to which your soil mix is 'alive'

However a properly assembled mix kept @ the right moisture/temp level OVER TIME will 'come to life' fostering an environment where the plant asks for and receives nutes in the quantity it needs

the mix cryptlord suggested does resemble such a base but it also seems pretty hot to me {perhaps not?} BUT, if you mix that up on top of a previously amended soil mix {MG,FF;} you will definitely have problems

many living soil advocates also suggest using a 'seedling mix' {3pt peat or coco, 1pt EWC/compost, 1 pt drainage ~amended only w/ 'liming' agents e.g. 2 pt oyster shell, 1 pt dolo lime, 1 pt gypsum mixed and applied @ 2 TBS/gal} for sensitive cuttings and seedlings {IOW - almost NO nutes 'added'}

EWC is not to be underestimated here; the addition of a EWC slurry or top-dress will likely help these seedlings OP {but it soulds like you are through the woods no?}

 

[The Hatter]

And another thing - seedling soil. If you look at the root system of sprouted seeds, they consist of very fine, almost downey roots. The soil they grow into should be just as fine and light, to ensure 100% contact and good access to water and nutrients.

So I like to sprout them in dedicated seedling soil, usually very fine and light. I feed them with 0.2 EC of a P/K only bloomfood (no nitrogen), and root stimulator. When they have real leaves, I feed them with 0.1 EC of a veg nutrient added.

I've already made up two different batches of soil now. The watered down batch I described above with the cactus soil mix added to it is for my babies and I am just using a 40/40 mix of FF Ocean Forest and Happy Frog with 20% perlite and pumice added for the older plants which seem to be quite hungry aside for the Nep Jam. I also add a good dose of FF microbe mix to it to get the healthy microbes started. I have only been fertilizing with organic grow tea but it looks like its a bit too weak so I will have to go pick up some proper nutes.

 

[The Hatter]

All of my earlier trouble with burn is long gone. I've actually gone in the other direction now, which is that I have been starving them. I would put up some pics but even with a license in hand I am hesitant to put things up on the internet where they are pretty much forever. You never know when the next right wing nut job will get elected and go on a witch hunt. Hopefully my fears are not warranted.

 

[xmobotx]

i hope your fears are not warranted as well as i would love the freedom to grow w/o fear of losing my property/jail

good to see your plants are thriving

even 'burned' seedlings can overcome and turn out fine; frequently they will be stunted so we all want to avoid the situation

for clarity, clackamas cootz just pointed out that 'hot' soil typically equals un'processed' organic matter {in OM mixes} ~once the soil has had time to process; 'excess' nutrients {within reason} will not cause problems

'living' soil is the key ~ let nature do what it does!

 

[The Hatter]

Although I have never grown this particular species of plant before and I've never used Fox Farm soil until now, I must say I haven't been particularly impressed with the soil I have from them. I have noticed a lot of salt build up in my used pots which is something that didn't happen much with the black gold soils I used in the past with my cacti.

Perhaps it's just my lack of experience with cannabis.

 

[Cryptlord9999]

xmobotx The soil mix i posted is slightly hot for landrace strains, but most pure sativa hybrids they can handle it, id let it sit and "cook" for 30 days before using though after mixing and moistening the mix with a organic blackstrap molasses/water mix. I personally cut the soil mix with about 3 parts soil mix to 1 part just the base mix to tone it down slightly but you can even do 1 part soil mix to 3 parts base mix and get killer results. I also incorporate zoning, layering and spikes in my containers. Also if growing organically its pointless to use city tap water as it contains chlorine/chloramine (which cant be bubbled out) which will decimate microbial populations in containers (if not destroy them over a short time period) id recommend only using the soil mix i suggested if using R/O, distilled or rain water.

Hatter what is the water source you ware using? City tap, R/O, distilled, rain water, well water? Do you have hard or soft water at all? what is the PPM of the water you are using? Are you using any synthetic bottled nutrients or organic bottled nutrients that are heavily chelated with organic acids? Salt build up can be caused from many different things and while i do agree fox farm soils arent the best (when compared to soils like my own both in quality and cost) i wouldnt blame it on the soil right away, perhaps other soils you have used before just drain more easily and dont build up salts as easily?

 

[xmobotx]

right crypt i endorse your mix for experienced gardeners just am personally pretty thrifty w/ amendments

so long as that sits long enough in the right conditions and everything is properly broken down it will be good even for sensitive feeders

i really think its a best plan to run a junk crop maybe clover or grass grain as a 1st cycle ; get things sorted out and see that the soil has matured

when recycling; sometimes the initial inputs seem like a lot

BTW; you bring up an excellent point w/ regards to the water

 

[The Hatter]

I am using tap water that is hard, but I run it through a carbon filter to take some of the crud out. The water source has proven to be a bit of a problem already in that it has a very high PH even after running it through filtration.

I am using an organic solids nutrient blend from FF with microbes added. It comes as a powder which I have then been making a grow tea out of. It's actually designed for roses. The reason I picked it is because it was organic, had microbes in it and a lot of Potassium which is the nutrient all my plants are starving for at the moment. Also since its intendef for roses it is balanced towards being more acidic so in the end it counters the the high PH in the tap water pretty well. It has proven to be a bit too weak so I am considering moving up to some Tiger Bloom nutes which I have heard pretty good things about. Money is a consideration since I'm not a comercial grower. Every dime I put into is one I never get back.

 

[The Hatter]

i really think its a best plan to run a junk crop maybe clover or grass grain as a 1st cycle ; get things sorted out and see that the soil has matured

I actually did this using a freebie auto cheese seed. It's a good idea in that it will show you if anything is seriously wrong with the soil, but the issue I ran into was that if the test plant is significantly different from the one you plan to ultimately grow in the mix then it doesn't react quite the same way that your final crop will. The Auto Cheese was a Dutch mutt and a heavy feeder so it ate my original soil mix up without a problem even when grown from seed in it, but the pure sativas I then went on to plant in the same soil mix afterwards burned pretty badly.

 

[xmobotx]

i like rain water

river/lake/creek would be good too

well water can be OK

municipals no good though