Ace Seeds Malawi...1st pure sativa grow

[Old Toker]

Here's something I learned from setting up my first drip system: do it at least a week before flowering so that you can make sure it works.....AND....you don't get so EXCITED that you mix up 55 gals of veg formula when you are planning to start flowering in less than a week. My excuse(s) are....newbiness and NOT being stoned when setting it up.

I'm currently using 4 gals of feed per day with 20+% runoff. My choices are increase feedings and extend vegging again, or dump the reservoir when there is still 25+ gals. So I topped again and I'll go to 2x feedings per day. While I would REALLY like to avoid dumping that many $$$s of nutes on my grass.....as soon as the plants adjust to this latest indignity......I'm going to dump the rez and switch over to 12/12.

BTW - I am working on decreasing the amount of runoff. While it may not matter now (considering I'm probably going to water my yard with half a rez of nutes), it will matter a lot when I'm feeding multiple times daily.

Always happy to share my idiocy with anyone reading this thread.

 

[Lammy]

I would strongly consider just dumping the mix right now. I mean if you're just cutting off the new growth just so you can use what you mixed up you're still losing a week of your life plus the cost of running the lights. which I guess might be insignificant in your case. you probably didn't mean to but you probably don't want to mix up nutrients to be used for more than maybe 3 days. my nutrients say in the instructions to always use them within 3 days but preferably right away.

it's good to see that you got the drippers going.

 

[Lammy]

another thing to keep in mind is that your roots need oxygen and Air and you don't want your planting mix to be overly wet. if your watering multiple times per day to the point of runoff that would be my concern. I would generally recommend that you go with a bigger pot size so you only have to water every second or third day. but you're probably using the pot size to control the size of the plant in your small space.

 

[Old Toker]

I mean if you're just cutting off the new growth just so you can use what you mixed up you're still losing a week of your life plus the cost of running the lights.

Thanks Lammy!
Before flowering I also needed to do some pruning, tying the girls to the screens, and eliminating any light leaks. I did not expect to switch to flowering until later in the week. They needed topped again anyway.....they have just grown so fast that I had to cut them back some before flowering. If I make it to harvest I may be the poster child for what happens if you veg too long with a limited height (80") grow area. My plants might end up tied and growing on the ceiling. Fortunately with a vert hung light.....it might not be too bad.

I understand that opinions vary on how long you can go between reservoir change outs. Some growers go through their entire grows just adding more water and nutes to their rezs.....and others every week to 10 days. Obviously I don't know what is right.....however if the PPMs are correct and there is no cleanliness issues with my reservoir....I hope to only change out the rez after I've gone through a full 55 gals of nutes.

When feeding once a day.....I use aprox 4 gals of nutes including runoff. I added a second feeding today.....which seems to be less than 4 gals. Either way.....when I (hopefully) get to 6x feedings per day.....I expect that I will be changing the rez more frequently than I would like.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Old Toker]

...you're probably using the pot size to control the size of the plant in your small space.

Yes....to control plant size and to allow the pots/coco to dry out between feedings. Well....not really dry completely out. Supposedly more feedings also equals more oxygen to the roots. My understanding of how the coco thing works is that first you make sure the roots fill your pots.....after that point you can't really over water and do not need to wait for pots to dry out. I could be wrong...after all I am a newb....but so far I haven't had problems.....yet.

As far as the runoff: I'm not planning on having 20+% runoff on every feeding. My plan is to have a small amount of runoff at the first feeding and last feeding of each day....the ones in between will be watered just enough to almost runoff. Obviously this is a work in progress.....and one that will probably change as time passes. I'm still trying to figure out how fast to feed (less than a minute.....2 minutes?) and for how long. Once I get that figured out I should be able to dial the feedings in so that I get less runoff.

Thanks again for the suggestions! I really do appreciate them.

 

[Levitationofme]

I ran a couple runs in Coco and it works great once I tweaked it.
I hand watered 2x a day.
You can slowly back off from 20% runoff to find where its effecting plants.


*This is just my experience with coco and what it did to my mind*

Once I had mine transplanted I never let the coco dry.
It was explained to me that you concentrate the salts and that can make them have weird deficiencies. Under the conditions of a indoor grow, you have great light,excellent air flow and a bath of ready to absorb nutrient buffet. Your Roots will grow. As will your plants.

PH is supreme---
I always phed nutrients to 5.8 it will drift up as plant metabolizes and exudes crap so to speak. Your Nutrients may also be reacting with each other

Cal/Mag is supreme---
Coco and Cal have a strange relationship. You must compensate if your nutrient solution is not complete for "Coco" or you will have lockout issues.

Its helpful to think of Coco as a strange sponge and not soil.
when you pour new solution from top, it pushes out the used solution on the bottom. That is why its good to have some runoff.

Every time you add your nutrient solution you are adding fresh oxygen.

Works well with organic nutrients, but that is more challenging then using a quality chemical nutrient. Not sure all the extra effort was worth the extra effort lol.

Once I had the PH thing and the Cal/Mag thing figured out it was a piece of cake.

I still smoke the Tangie and Skunk 1 I grew out in coco.

 

[Old Toker]

Thank you Levitationofme! Appreciate you posting your experience and insight.

 

[Lammy]

I personally believe that the roots get most of their oxygen from the air as the amount of dissolved oxygen in water is insignificant. I also believed that the point of watering the plants multiple times per day to make sure they get more oxygen is that the pot is drier more often. for example with made-up numbers if I'm currently hand watering a plant now and giving it one gallon every 2 days if I watered it twice a day with a quarter of a gallon the pot would never be as wet as it is for one day after I hand water it.

but if you're plants are being over-watered you can see them looking droopy and in my experience they usually stall their growth

but I've never claimed to be the world's best grower my talent is definitely in system design and setup

 

[Old Toker]

..for example with made-up numbers if I'm currently hand watering a plant now and giving it one gallon every 2 days if I watered it twice a day with a quarter of a gallon the pot would never be as wet as it is for one day after I hand water it.

I think this is where the misunderstanding is. Any pot that contains a fully rooted plant in 100% coco is only going to hold so much water. Using your example: Let's assume that when you feed your plant 1 gal every other day.....there is some runoff. Which simply means that whatever size pot your plant is in could not contain all 100% (1 gal) of the water. This is desirable. Flush the salts and coco while drawing in fresh oxygen. Let's say I do the same thing in the same size pot: feed 1 gal of water and, like you, make sure I have some runoff. Both of us have fully saturated pots....as witnessed by the runoff....the coco could not hold anymore water. However.....instead of waiting until tomorrow or the day after....like you are.....I water my pot again 2 hours later. Would my pot be wetter than yours? Of course. And if I watered it again 2 hours after that? Of course. By the time you (and I) watered our plants with enough water for runoff two days later.....my plant will have been fed 12 additional times.....and therefore been more moist and drawn in more oxygen through each additional feeding than yours received by being fed every two days. Will I have used more water (feed) than you? Absolutely. But what I want to do is to have the first feeding after lights on have some runoff. Also the last feeding before lights off. The 4 feedings in between these runoff feedings will be just enough to saturate the coco without runoff. Thus avoiding any wasted nutes....yet still providing plenty of oxygen and fresh nutes to the plants.

Just an observation from my so far limited experience in feeding 2x daily. If I need 1/2 gal of water to create runoff when feeding once daily.....when I switched to 2x daily.....I do not need one gal of water. Haven't measured it yet....but it is certainly less than twice the amount. More than likely because the coco is still somewhat moist and has not had as long to dry out as coco that was watered once a day. I can tell you conclusively that it takes less time for my system to feed enough to reach runoff when feeding 2x daily than it does when I only feed once daily. I know this because I'm timing (to the second) how long it takes so that I can properly automate this system.

You can argue.....and you may well be correct..... that keeping your coco wet by feeding every two hours is not good for the roots. I don't know......clearly I don't have enough experience. Maybe I'll eventually have root rot or one of the host of other problems that stem from over watering/feeding. What I do know is that lots of experienced growers insist that multiple daily feedings are the best approach to growing in coco.....after the roots are fully developed in the pot. Stay tuned to this thread to find out whether it works or not. Provided of course that in the mean time I don't do something ELSE stupid that kills my plants.

 

[Levitationofme]

This is no mean arguement! This is the stuff when you get to bounce stuff off of other growers. Best way to ganin experience IMO.

Fresh nutrient fluid will add not only fresh oxygen, but fresh nutrients in the balance you want. When the plant sucks in what it wants from the nutrients and exudes it's wastes you end up with a unbalanced system. By continuing to drip feed you maximize the time the plant is in the perfect conditions. It also allows you to use a lower EC or PPM as there are always fresh nutrients being added.

When I grow my plant in a SIP there is no bubbler or multiple additions of water to beef up the oxygen, and in the end I will grow a plant that is not much different from one in Hydro. This leads me to think that we don't really know how much oxygen each plant may use in a day. My plants do not lack for oxygen at all. The multiple feedings and such are methods of pushing the plants to maximum growth potential as fast as possible. By having maximum availability of all nutrients available at all times. Especially with Chemical nutrients as they are fully chelated and ready for use 100% of the time. With that being said, you cant put plants in overdrive without more oxygen, Light and CO2 as well.

I have read where people will add H202 to their water to raise the Oxygen levels. Some swear by it. Some say it kills plants....

 

[Levitationofme]

If I were growing weed to Sell it and make a living I would use a combination of these methods I think.
A grower buddy of mine in Colorado has been at it legally from the beginning of the changes to the laws. He went thru a few methods and in the end now uses a mostly inert soiless mix
and he feeds them once a day. He uses a mostly organic line of nutrients that are not fully chelated so there are reactions going on all the time in his soil and only needs to refresh them once daily to maximise his crop. He runs CO2 as well. When I asked him why he does not do full on hydro he told me its too easy to fuck up a crop FAST.

Next is the fun argument of are chemical nutrients growing as Tasty a plant as possible compared to say an organic soil grow....
Lots of good fodder for discussion there.

 

[Lammy]

Old toker,
if your system was not working you'd probably know it.

About Your comparison between mine and your setup is I'm not watering to the point of runoff. there is plenty of different ways to water and when I watered with drippers the pots would fill up with so much more water than if I held my watering wand on them until the point of runoff. they can take so much more water if I use the drippers and then put that on a short cycle timer so they water for say three minutes on and then five minutes off and repeat. the first time I did that the pots held so much water that my table collapsed. It was the same table I have been using for years but as soon as I started using the cycle timer with the drippers that I had been using it collapse under the immense weight.

I use heavy 16 for nutrients and Aptus for additives. The Aptus has a lot of information in there and they explain that the main reason to water with run off every time is to wash out excessive salts much like you said. but if you didn't give them excess of salts in the first place they wouldn't need to be washed out according to this Theory. It Benefits nutrient companies to teach people to use excessively high levels of their products and then use extra to push out the left over.

I would say typically when I water now the pot weighs about one quarter of what it could weigh if I was slowly dripping it to saturation. I've never used straight coco but I was talking to someone who grows like that and they told me it's very important not to over water because he explained that the Coco has a lot of air pockets in it and it can hold a lot more water than normal mixes.

anyway that's just what I do and why I do it that way. you have any problems with your setup I'm sure you'll notice it.

 

[Old Toker]

..anyway that's just what I do and why I do it that way. you have any problems with your setup I'm sure you'll notice it.

Once again....Thank you for your insight. I'm not even sure of what I don't know. There are so many different opinions....that I'm just going to give the multiple waterings a shot. So far no problems....that I've noticed.....but it's still early.

 

[deepwaterdude]

Hey, fellas, dig the thread and the conversation! Just wanted to add my 2$, having done a bunch of grows in coco with different feeding systems: I've never been able to overwater coco using autopots, nor with top drips 15 min on 45 off, nor hand watering a quart a day in 3 gal getting 10-20% runoff. That said, my coco mixes have always included perlite or rice hulls to a good percentage for even better drainage and oxygenation, so set up to be watered on hydro schedule more than soil. I used the whole canna line the first couple and it was very easy for a beginner, results were super healthy plants and a yield more hydro than soil.

I don't have much to say on organics, as this next run will be my first try with a highly amended coco mix and hopefully just teas to supplement along the way. I'll be using a blumat automatic drip system for the first time with coco. I've done it in soil, and I found it would be ideal for a supersoil or mix like this one, as the medium stays humid all the time and this is potentially good with coco, potentially not so with soil. I doubt I'll be seeing any runoff at all after the first wetting, but as there are no salts, I'm guessing no problem.

Should be said that I got the blumats because I can't be trusted with hand wwatering... see, I stutter just saying it, and as a wise man said on a friendly site "To get rid of the foolishness, you gotta get rid of the fool". Blumats easy, timer drip, easy, dwc easy, very little me there.

Anyhoo, the main claims about coco tend to be; can't overwater, and you can feed like hydro and get those results. I find these to be true if you pay attention to its particularities; extra CalMag (extra extra with LEDs), and coco pH. Also, faster to correct than soil, slower to screw up than hydro. Buffers on both sides

Looking forward to seeing how it goes, Ram and OT, good luck and no worries!

(wanted to provide a link to a blumat and coco grow here on IC:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=235426)

 

[Old Toker]

Just wanted to add my 2$, having done a bunch of grows in coco with different feeding systems: ...

Thank you DWD! Appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and knowledge. Definitely worth 2 cents......probably even more.
Good luck with the Blumats! Some people swear they are great......and others just swear at them.
You've evidently had a lot of success using a variety of soils/mixes...what made you decide to now try organic highly amended coco mix and teas?

 

[deepwaterdude]

Thank you DWD! Appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and knowledge. Definitely worth 2 cents......probably even more.
Good luck with the Blumats! Some people swear they are great......and others just swear at them.
You've evidently had a lot of success using a variety of soils/mixes...what made you decide to now try organic highly amended coco mix and teas?

My pleasure! Good question also. I love dwc, but as dubi was kind enough to let me test some genetics, instead of one huge plant, I thought I'd try to see as many as possible in a small space. (popped 5 of 7)
I'm trying out the new amended mix because I love coco's results, I want to water with RO, hence need a supersoil or soilless mix that'll be its own nutrient source for the most part, and as I mentioned I'm a dork when it comes to watering and the blumats react to the plant's uptake, leaving me to do the peon jobs, which I'm good at
As far as being super successful in a bunch of mediums, I've never wanted for bud, but often it was not exactly presentable but definitely effective. I've got effective down. Holeshot I think is a coco grower who's got his method down pat and gets huge results. I think Zanddar also grows in soilless with teas. Doesn't get more pro

 

[Old Toker]

..I've never wanted for bud, but often it was not exactly presentable but definitely effective. I've got effective down.

JMPO.....but unless you are growing commercially.....effective is a much "higher" priority than presentable. Can you tell us what new genetics Dubi is allowing you to test? I think it's quite a vote of confidence in your growing skills for him to ask you. Strangely enough....I haven't heard from him.

 

[deepwaterdude]

JMPO.....but unless you are growing commercially.....effective is a much "higher" priority than presentable. Can you tell us what new genetics Dubi is allowing you to test? I think it's quite a vote of confidence in your growing skills for him to ask you. Strangely enough....I haven't heard from him.

You got the punctuation wrong-that should read: "...it's quite a vote of confidence in your growing skills for him to ask you...strangely enough."
i don't know what Dubi's criteria were for choosing folks to test, but I was definitely surprised and humbled to receive an invitation to do so as I'm my own worst critic though true my outdoor plants were quite beautiful last year. Probably the majority of folks keep quiet about it until successful harvest, which is probably kinder and wiser than what I'm doing, but I feel full confidence in the genetics and am getting better at getting out of the way.

Anyhoo, there was a list of 2017 testers to choose from that is actually posted in some recent threads, so I don't feel off about outing its existence. Many Ethiopian and Honduran crosses, but what caught my eye were two Zamaldelica crosses as it was next on my list of desires; the Zam mango carrot elite F1 x Kali China F4 elite fem and same Zamaldelica x Panama Elite Goddess std. or something equally delectable sounding I've got a thread going on what I imprecisely called the KC x Zam. They're stout little lettuces at 2 weeks.

I've thought about it a bit and I think it's very smart. Ace gets to see its genetics tested in many different arenas, and they're still not going to lose my interest or money as a regular client, because they keep putting out new limited ed. strains that I can't grow at the moment and that I'd just like to have in my freezer before they run out. For me these are malawi pck, panama x malawi, malawi x Panama, panama haze, PH x malawi, the Hondurans, not to mention many in the Cannabiogen book, and I'm probably forgetting a few. I'm a frigging walking, talking advertisement in my no-cure 28%thc dispensary bud dominated environment. It's a small leap to getting an ace tattoo on the back of my hand. No fools, these senores. Good day to you OT, dwd

 

[Levitationofme]

Yea, when you mix good business practices with
Bad ass products, and its mind bendingly good weed. You will get Fans and fast. Loyal one's indeed

 

[Old Toker]

You got the punctuation wrong-that should read: "...it's quite a vote of confidence in your growing skills for him to ask you...

Pretty sure I had it correct.....although the punctuation on all my posts is often wrong. I don't know how he chooses his testers (I am a serious distance from worrying about how to let him down gently)...but I am certain he has MANY growers to choose from.....and he selected you (among others). That is a compliment and I'll definitely check out your thread.
OTOH - you could be the guy he uses just to test out how bad a grower could be and still successfully grow one of Ace's strains? Nahhhhh that can't be it.

I've thought about it a bit and I think it's very smart. Ace gets to see its genetics tested in many different arenas, and they're still not going to lose my interest or money as a regular client, because they keep putting out new limited ed. strains that I can't grow at the moment and that I'd just like to have in my freezer before they run out. For me these are malawi pck, panama x malawi, malawi x Panama, panama haze, PH x malawi, the Hondurans, not to mention many in the Cannabiogen book, and I'm probably forgetting a few. I'm a frigging walking, talking advertisement in my no-cure 28%thc dispensary bud dominated environment. It's a small leap to getting an ace tattoo on the back of my hand. No fools, these senores. Good day to you OT, dwd

Brother this is some deep and profound sh*t. Once I figure out what you said I'm going to be duly impressed. Until then try to steer clear of tatoo parlors.

Regards....another Old Toker