Ace Malawi and Cycloptics Greenbeams: caught in the Under Current!

[tableshaper]

Hello timmur
I found the greenbeams and then found you! Not a lot of info on their site but did email the company on Saturday and they responded Sunday so thats promising. Unfortunately they didn't answer my questions. I am looking for the coverage of these units at 8', obviously these shades are made to reflect off the shade itself and the walls so there must be a sweet spot dependant on the height of the shade from the canopy and from the canopy to the walls. The stats on the company webpage is for 10-15' ceilings. Hopefully they get back to me. I have to say as impressive (and I mean IMPRESSIVE) as your set up is I do find it discouraging! Is the coverage of these units so bad that you need 12 units for 90sqf or 1 per plant as you have it now? Thanks
This grow is going to be epic!

 

[timmur]

Hello timmur
I found the greenbeams and then found you! Not a lot of info on their site but did email the company on Saturday and they responded Sunday so thats promising. Unfortunately they didn't answer my questions. I am looking for the coverage of these units at 8', obviously these shades are made to reflect off the shade itself and the walls so there must be a sweet spot dependant on the height of the shade from the canopy and from the canopy to the walls. The stats on the company webpage is for 10-15' ceilings. Hopefully they get back to me. I have to say as impressive (and I mean IMPRESSIVE) as your set up is I do find it discouraging! Is the coverage of these units so bad that you need 12 units for 90sqf or 1 per plant as you have it now? Thanks
This grow is going to be epic!

Hey tableshaper thanks for stopping by. I wouldn't get too discouraged if I were you. My set up is really at the far end of what is required in terms of lighting (by design). With that said and as a general rule of thumb (if you follow Cycloptics recommendations) it will take about three of these fixtures to provide the same amount of light as a single 1KW DE HPS. Call Cycloptics and talk to Flip. He's very helpful.

Regarding the question of fixture distance to canopy and distance from walls, I think the only way to know is to get a model from Flip or buy the lights and use a light meter to determine the answer. i know that sucks, but I think it's the only way. Maybe Flip will have more insight.

My approach is to start with a target DLI (daily light integral which is moles per day). Once you know how many hours per day you will provide light during veg and flower, you can then pick a target PPFD range that will meet the DLI goal. This in turn will determine how many fixtures you will need for a given space.

As an example, I wanted about 45 DLI or greater during veg and flower so the calcs looked like this:

Veg DLI = 650 μmoles/m2/s (PPFD) x 19 hours x .0036 = 44.46 moles/day

Flower DLI = 1,020 μmoles/m2/s x 12 x .0036 = 44.06 moles/day

From all of that Cycloptics was able to run a model and tell me how many fixtures I would need to deliver the target PPFD range at various irradiance planes. According to the model they provided me, the twelve fixtures in my room will provide about 650 PPFD at 12" from the floor and 1,020 PPFD at 64" above the floor.

During flower the PPFD should be anywhere from 700-1000. DLI higher than 50 is considered by many to be in the land of diminishing returns. I think the limit in the outdoors is about 55-60 for a couple of months in the summer in the southwestern US.

Here's an estimator you could use to start an approximation. I believe it is just an average, but may be useful. It's not for Greenbeams but it is for ePapillion's CMH and HPS fixtures.

Very long winded, I know, but you have to start with how much light you want to deliver and how you want to deliver it. Scrappy, an ICmag member, used 3 Greenbeams in a 5 x 10 and pulled a little over 3 lbs (no CO2). He kept the lights relatively close to the canopy and moved them up as the plants grew (I think). Just check out his grow in the link below. It's a fairly long thread so you''ll just have to dig through it. There's also a few other threads that you will find helpful.

Scrappy's thread

Cycloptics Greenbeams 315w owners thread

Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

 

[McKush]

Dang timmur! Droppin' knowledge as they say. Great post man you really laid it out well n that post should be stickied!

Can you post that in the cycloptics thread for everyone? Or if you'd rather i can section off the bottom of the first post and copy it there. Yours should be one of the first posts a person should read when planning a room with this fixture. Righteous.

Looking forward to seeing your room in action

 

[tableshaper]

Thanks for the rapid response... I clearly have homework to do and regret being the class clown. You either have some serious funds or big balls as that is a huge investment in an unknown light! I will defiantly follow this one.

 

[timmur]

You're not the class clown, lol.

I did make a big investment, but CMH is proven technology and Greenbeams in particular. Several large operations in WA and CO have used Greenbeams and they are crushing it. I don't want to post here and clog up this thread, but I can put it in the Greenbeams thread tonight. There are several members here on ICmag that have used them with great success so I wouldn't really characterize them as unproven!

 

[frostqueen]

Looking good, timmur! I have some of those Ace Malawi seeds too; can't wait to see how they do for you under CMH. I bet it'll help control the stretch a bit.

Man are those Greenbeams sexy!

 

[timmur]

Yeah I'm just dying to get these malawi going!

The CMH spectrum is great for reducing stretch as you pointed out. I'm gonna do a few other things to limit stretch. Follow the link in this post for a really great article on how to reduce stretch without PGRs. I'm going to give all of the suggestions a try.

 

[Collembola]

i tried water / nutrient / pot limitation this time around but i think i am going to end up with "pom pom" flowers.

they (nepjam, panama) didn't stretch much (like 20% guess) but because of that, like 90% of floral clusters at the moment are compressed within the top 15% of the canopy or something (a la scrog) (not ideal for me with vertical)

i think it would have been better to veg less and stretch more for me this time around... (although i did top several times)

---------------------

pot size, reduced water and low nitrogen (in that order ), have seemed best, but always use mh up till floral development stage anyway, plants seem healthier under mh (vs hps), regardless of intention ime.

i don't have much control over day, night differential (48-86F at the moment (OOps), but i read that is one of the biggest factors also...

think if you can master stretch, then massive impact on yield / quality (relative to training / intention), but also planning and implementation, prior to flipping light schedule.

 

[timmur]

think if you can master stretch, then massive impact on yield / quality (relative to training / intention), but also planning and implementation, prior to flipping light schedule.

My thoughts exactly. I'd like to veg as long as possible and not have them reaching for the sky, lol!

 

[frostqueen]

Yeah I'm just dying to get these malawi going!

The CMH spectrum is great for reducing stretch as you pointed out. I'm gonna do a few other things to limit stretch. Follow the link in this post for a really great article on how to reduce stretch without PGRs. I'm going to give all of the suggestions a try.

W-o-w! That is some game-changing information, my friend. Thank you for the link! I had no idea low day temps had that effect. And the spectrum part explains why CMH is superior.

The other surprise was the bumping-the-tops technique. Regarding that, I wonder why they used a moving bar to bump tops once rather than just having a fan blowing on them to move them?

 

[tableshaper]

Yeah, I learned a lot from that one. I would imagine they need a physical touch as the plant would most likely sense the difference from air movement. Odd how things seem obvious after someone else says it... the plant thinks its growing into something, better stop growing this direction. So simple.

 

[Collembola]

EDIT:

just been through thread properly, and saw setup etc jesus !!!

(nice thread)

sorry about posting non-relevant info timmur, more reading less typing needed...

can't wait to see flowering photos!!

best of luck / happy growing !

 

[timmur]

Yeah stretch is only "bad" in certain growing contexts. I can see where it would be beneficial when doing vert bulbs. I've actually heard that from others who grow using that method.

 

[McKush]

I like stretch in flower, not so much in veg

 

[frostqueen]

Yeah, I learned a lot from that one. I would imagine they need a physical touch as the plant would most likely sense the difference from air movement. Odd how things seem obvious after someone else says it... the plant thinks its growing into something, better stop growing this direction. So simple.

Agreed, a very weird response. You have to wonder what is happening hormonally there. Regardless, I have a big group of Dogwalker OGs that were already huge at the flip, so I'm going to give this a try. Last night I was down there briefly touching all of the tops and frankly feeling a bit dumb, but... it wouldn't be the first time. If it works it could be hugely beneficial.

 

[timmur]

EDIT:

just been through thread properly, and saw setup etc jesus !!!

(nice thread)

sorry about posting non-relevant info timmur, more reading less typing needed...

can't wait to see flowering photos!!

best of luck / happy growing !

No worries Collembola, thanks!

 

[Collembola]

yes sorry,

i thought it was another "speculatory ace thread", and not someone who could fit like 10x my smelly little grow tent into area...

going to STFU now following this, and just sit back and enjoy, it is nice to look, when someone goes to the effort of compartmentalising information for reference against pictures like you have done, especially with such a nice setup

> you know before all the noobs come out the woodwork and then ruin it..

(see above)

thanks!!

 

[Ez Rider]

How's the build going?

 

[timmur]

Hey Ez. I'm mostly at a standstill waiting for the room to show up. It shipped yesterday so it should be here by Thursday. I'm contemplating how to mount the lights, ballasts, and manage the cables. Also going to buy a CO2 tank today. Still waiting for the Agrowtek controller. It should be here next week. I'm targeting next weekend to pop the seeds. I just want the room in place and mostly tested before I pull the trigger.

Any thoughts on cable management and ballast question?

 

[Ez Rider]

Hey Ez. I'm mostly at a standstill waiting for the room to show up. It shipped yesterday so it should be here by Thursday. I'm contemplating how to mount the lights, ballasts, and manage the cables. Also going to buy a CO2 tank today. Still waiting for the Agrowtek controller. It should be here next week. I'm targeting next weekend to pop the seeds. I just want the room in place and mostly tested before I pull the trigger.

Any thoughts on cable management and ballast question?

I've got all the ballasts mounted on a 4x6 in my No-Holes-Barhttp://http://www.greners.com/i/hydroponics/components/benches-stands/no-holes-bar-basic.html I really like the added strenght it lends to the tent. I mounted all the ballasts to one side of the 4x6, and my timers and outlets on the other side. I used the included twist ties to bundle and secure the excess ballast/lamp cords to the ceiling bracing in my tent. I've got the hoods hanging from the ceiling bracing too. To be honest, I'm not entirely happy with it, but I'm working on it. I mostly needed to get up and running again. I can fine tune anytime. I would strongly recommend numbering the ballasts and marking the input/output connections and hoods correspondingly. One of my ballasts was DOA, and if I'd numbered everything clearly from the start, it would have been easier to figure out. I didn't tag everything till I had too. The other way is less frustrating.

Ez