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acclimatization and breeding
- Thread starter Wu-Skunk
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SmokeyTheGrower
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where do you get that answer from? This is a topic that has many opinions and factors. Misinformation is something we need to avoid.
I've heard that for genetics to evolve to fit a certain climate can take 100s of years,I've also heard it can only take a few. What the science? I don't know,but make sure when giving info here your 100% it's accurate.
it depends a lot of things.
the best you can opt for is to select the first generation off-spring that seem to be doing the best in their new environment, then reproduce them, and do the same with the next generation.
the best you can opt for is to select the first generation off-spring that seem to be doing the best in their new environment, then reproduce them, and do the same with the next generation.
I dont think this word 'acclimatization' means what you think it means.
Acclimatization:
The physiological adaptation of an animal or plant to changes in climate or environment, such as light, temperature, or altitude.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/acclimatization
And plus.... the Epigenome....this may get a little more in depth than you were asking for but i think is still good info.
the Epigenome, acts by adding and removing chemical tags to and from specific gene's on specific chromosomes and changes the way the gene expresses its phenotype in a given environment. The Epigenome can change the phenotypic expression through stress, disease, or a shift in the ideal growing environment all of which can and will be passed on to the offspring.
its hard to say how many generations it would take. for example it would depend on what strain your starting out within what environment, if I'm starting with a Sativia dominant hybrid it should be easier to acclimate to a subtropical location than a largely Indica dominant strain. also your eye for selection. also if your going to keep clone mothers of the best females to cross back to year after year or are you going to use a full on forward filial breeding process all of these things factor in.
but yes I've heard you can introduce and acclimate a variety in around six generations if you know what your doing and keep in mind the hardy-weihnberg laws of genetic equilibrium. this makes acclimatizing in a Sativa environment easier than at a northern latitude due to the fact that around the tropics the seasons are much more stable from year to year so the plants aren't experiencing as much epigenetic drift from one season to the next and allows for easier selection of desirable phenotypes
the below article isn't related to cannabis but it does lay out the documented epigenetic drifts in identical twins through stresses, and environmental factors. So we can infer from it how the environment relates to the phenotypic expression and heredity of an individual and a population of cannabis plants
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180801/
Epigenetic drift in aging identical twins
George M. Martin*
Departments of Pathology and Genome Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195
* E-mail: [email protected].
See the article"Epigenetic differences arise during the lifetime of monozygotic twins" on page 10604.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Other Sections▼
Those of you, like this author, who have managed to stay alive for close to eight decades or more, will have had the experience of observing increasing degrees of phenotypic discordances among our identical twin friends as we age together. They may succumb to the same disease, but often the age of onset is years or even decades apart. An interesting example is a report of twins, both of whom developed histologically confirmed dementia of the Alzheimer's type; one had the diagnosis in her late 60s but the other was not diagnosed until age 83 (1). The conventional wisdom is that the bulk of these differences can be attributable to good or bad luck with one's environmental exposures, to the quality of medical and spousal care (or abuse), or to learned behavioral differences in how we exercise (perhaps mentally and physically) and what we eat, drink, or smoke, among myriad other possibilities. Many have assumed that, apart from some rare point mutations or aberrant chromosomal segregations and their impacts upon the emergence of neoplastic diseases, the differences we see are not due to heritable changes in cells. There is growing interest, however, in that class of potentially heritable change in DNA that is not associated with alterations in the primary nucleotide sequence or copy number but rather is modulated by what Joshua Lederberg (2) long ago referred to as “epinucleic.” Modern molecular genetics now points to two major classes of such alterations: methylations of cytosine at cytosine-guanine dinucleotides and covalent modifications of DNA-bound histones, notably acetylations and methylations. Cytosine methylations at regions of gene promoters rich in CpG islands are generally associated with the silencing of genes, whereas histone acetylations are generally associated with the activation of genes.
"these enlarged words are the chemical tags the silence or activate the genes phenotypic expression"-- Infi
Other Sections▼
GENE EXPRESSION STUDIES REFLECT INCREASE IN VARIATION BETWEEN TWIN PAIRS AS THEY AGE
In this issue of PNAS, a group of Spanish, Swedish, Danish, English, and American investigators report their findings of both global and locus-specific differences in DNA methylation and histone acetylation in identical twins of various ages (3). Their general conclusion is that whereas young identical twin pairs are essentially indistinguishable in their epigenetic markings, older identical twin pairs show substantial variations. Moreover, and of considerable importance, were their studies of gene expression in these aging twin pairs. Differences in gene expression among older twin pairs were some four times greater than those observed in young twin pairs.
There is widespread “epigenetic drift” associated with aging.
The studies reported by Fraga et al. (3) in this issue of PNAS mostly used peripheral blood lymphocytes, but a smaller number of samples of buccal mucosal epithelial cells, skeletal muscle biopsies, and aspirations of s.c. fat provided results consistent with the conclusions from the research with lymphocytes. The authors therefore concluded that there is indeed widespread “epigenetic drift” associated with aging. Their article cites other lines of evidence consistent with an important role of epigenetic alterations in aging mammalian tissues. A particularly nice example is one reported from the David Burke laboratory at the University of Michigan. Their studies of age-associated activation of epigenetically repressed genes in aging mouse tissues indicate that they are perhaps two orders of magnitude greater than somatic mutations (4). The present study is by far the most comprehensive and detailed study of age-associated epigenetic changes so far reported, certainly for the case of human subjects. It is a technical tour de force with the utilization of a battery of powerful molecular genetic methodologies coupled with competitive chromosomal hybridizations.
The reported epigenetic shifts in these aging identical twins could have arisen through endogenous, stochastic mechanisms, independent of environmental perturbations, or could have resulted from such environmental perturbations. The fact that there was an association between the extent of environmental differences between twins (lifestyles, time spent together, etc.) and the degree of epigenetic shifts cannot definitively answer that question. Moreover, one cannot know from this data the extent to which specific gene alterations were adaptive or nonadaptive. Although the classic evolutionary biological theory of why aging exists argues that senescent phenotypes are nonadaptive (5), compensatory changes in gene expression can continue for some decades after the peak of reproductive activity; I have referred to such compensatory changes in gene expression as “sageing” (6). One can imagine various degrees of the efficiency of such compensations, thus leading to widening discordances among aging identical twins.
I hope that helps someone without being to long winded,
peace
Infi
Hey FoCo!
What I ment with acclimatization is environment adaptation of plant to new geographic location. To shorten it's flowering times, etc...
v Take all this then....
If you have, (if not go and buy) the Dj short book Cultivating exceptional cannabis. it has a great beginner introduction to breeding and there is a specific chapter that deals with this subject, 16 Cannabis Types: Sativa, Indica & Ruderalis. If you can understand what he's saying throughout the chapter you will understand how the info above will help you solve your problem, especially these three topics of the chapter Genotype, Phenotype and Environmental Triggers, Better Phenotypes Through Environment & Angle of Light. read the whole book/chapter but pay special attention to those three topics and then study, Epigenetics, your environment, the genes your using and you'll have a good head start. good luck guys.
Edit: this thread really should be in the breeder section, to get your best answers
peace,
Infi
I would love to buy DJ short book. I just don't want to receive it on my addy. I need to find a friend that will order it. 
I apologize for not being able to rate threads and give reputation back. I can only see that I received rep but can't see from who. Hope I will get out of "noob" mode asap.
best regards
I apologize for not being able to rate threads and give reputation back. I can only see that I received rep but can't see from who. Hope I will get out of "noob" mode asap.
best regards
Acclimatisation begins from the first generation grown in the new climate, by the second generation there will already be changes in the genotypes, in my northerly climate I have got pure Afghan strains to start turning auto by P3/4, or they have turned extreme photo sensitive, as they were flowering in July.
To a few posters.
I think there may be a misunderstanding what acclimatization is and how it works.
If you take a seed and grow it outdoors in a more northern environment then it is accustomed to it may not mature before the cold stops plant growth. Even if you make a clone of the from seed plant and grow it out for five years in the northern environment it will still not be acclimatized. The genes do not change.
If you breed and make seeds from the clone and select the earlier plants that have the traits you want to keep but are a bit earlier, you can repeat this for several years.
Or make F1 seeds from the desired plant with another male that is earlier, grow them out and freely pollinate the F1 seeds with themselves, the more plants the better. Grow out the F2 seeds and you will find plants almost identical to the original mother of the F1, except it is much earlier. The larger the population sizes, the easier the work.
What you have done is to use breeding to change the frequency of genes to make it mature earlier, it is simple selection by man.
Epigenetic or Epigenome may be important if it effects inheritable traits that you are interested in, does it?
-SamS
I think there may be a misunderstanding what acclimatization is and how it works.
If you take a seed and grow it outdoors in a more northern environment then it is accustomed to it may not mature before the cold stops plant growth. Even if you make a clone of the from seed plant and grow it out for five years in the northern environment it will still not be acclimatized. The genes do not change.
If you breed and make seeds from the clone and select the earlier plants that have the traits you want to keep but are a bit earlier, you can repeat this for several years.
Or make F1 seeds from the desired plant with another male that is earlier, grow them out and freely pollinate the F1 seeds with themselves, the more plants the better. Grow out the F2 seeds and you will find plants almost identical to the original mother of the F1, except it is much earlier. The larger the population sizes, the easier the work.
What you have done is to use breeding to change the frequency of genes to make it mature earlier, it is simple selection by man.
Epigenetic or Epigenome may be important if it effects inheritable traits that you are interested in, does it?
-SamS
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hey Sam,
you didn't make it very clear exactly who you were speaking to so i took the liberty if I'm wrong feel free to bitch slap and correct me lol
if its for me, Im still new to all this and still learning a lot... and you know what traits I'm selecting for as per my thread in the hash forum...lol
thanks for coming in and dropping some knowledge SamS,
peace,
Infi
you didn't make it very clear exactly who you were speaking to so i took the liberty
if I'm wrong feel free to bitch slap and correct me lolVV
I missed that wu-skunk never mentioned pollinating and could have been referring to a clone over successive years in an environment, that never donned on me i assumed we were talking about breeding lol
VV ^^yeah the Hardy-weihnburg law right?
I think he meant F3/4 but we new what he meant right. i don't think breeding the earliest plant with the earliest plant forward filially generation after generation would be a good idea. DJ suspects that to be the cause the rudy (auto flower) phenotypes as per his book.
is this a question for me or Rinse
if its for me, Im still new to all this and still learning a lot... and you know what traits I'm selecting for as per my thread in the hash forum...lolthanks for coming in and dropping some knowledge SamS,
peace,
Infi
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Sam, I get you, its in the selection, but say you have clones of an Afghan plant,
2 female and 2 male (the fems are off the same mother, the male off the same dad)
you grow one couple @ 25N, the other couple @ 55N, the couples breed,
Would the 55N seeds not be more acclimatised to 55N than the 25N seeds?
Would they not finish earlier?
Hope that makes sense.
2 female and 2 male (the fems are off the same mother, the male off the same dad)
you grow one couple @ 25N, the other couple @ 55N, the couples breed,
Would the 55N seeds not be more acclimatised to 55N than the 25N seeds?
Would they not finish earlier?
Hope that makes sense.
hey rinse
i follow, i don't think that they would in that first filial cross, cuz their is no selection there is no environmental pressure favoring the gene responsible for the early flowering photosensitivity that causes the plant to react to a different photo period.
Yes the two genetically identical males would flower at different times of the year according to the calendar but they would flower at the same time according to the day/night photoperiod... Ie. 9 & 1/2 hours complete darkness for a Indica hybrid lets say.
does that makes sense?
i follow, i don't think that they would in that first filial cross, cuz their is no selection there is no environmental pressure favoring the gene responsible for the early flowering photosensitivity that causes the plant to react to a different photo period.
Yes the two genetically identical males would flower at different times of the year according to the calendar but they would flower at the same time according to the day/night photoperiod... Ie. 9 & 1/2 hours complete darkness for a Indica hybrid lets say.
does that makes sense?
First generation isn't acclimatized. I think we all agree on that. My idea was something like this. Plant a few hundred seeds. Hope for a good weather and maybe a little luck with some plants finishing faster than others - a feature they carry from their original environment not because they are now growing in different env - and those should produce a new batch of seeds for next season. They don't even have to finish as long as seeds are ripe.
Perhaps one should also take clones from those fast finishers and do an indoor run for further selection.
Repeat next season and next and next ... and in the process always pick earliest plants paying a lot of attention on traits of course so we don't lose the desired traits.
Genes would than change, correct?
If I'm not mistaking you're suggesting one should make seeds indoor to be on the safe side?
That's always an option.
Very nice thread 
When you breed for earliness in northern climates i think that autoflowering traits are necessary. Many early strains like HFH autoflower when you grow them at southern latitudes.
If some of the originals parents can already finish properly in the environment, what about open pollination generation after generation?
Peace
=K
When you breed for earliness in northern climates i think that autoflowering traits are necessary. Many early strains like HFH autoflower when you grow them at southern latitudes.
If some of the originals parents can already finish properly in the environment, what about open pollination generation after generation?
Peace
=K
