a wicked pulse

[delta9nxs]

here is one of the gaps left after i removed the male plants. same gap after i pulled the adjacent plants into the space. with almost 2 weeks of stretch left i think it will fill in ok.

this is the clone donor sour 13. gnarly.

 

[village green]

Beautiful plants there Delta. Boggles the mind to think what they would have been without the worms. Better luck next time.

 

[St3ve]

its a good thing you flipped.. those bitches are gonna get outta control.

 

[village green]

then 2 of the dope plants were showing male last night so i chopped them.

remember earlier i had one showing balls. it was that one again and one more from a pack of 12 feminized seeds.

this is why i don't like seedlings. too many surprises.

How many feminized seeds did you pop in total and were The Dope the only two that went macho? Were they male or hermi?
According to what you've documented I don't see any conditions that would have led to stress.

 

[high life 45]

Those plants look wonderful..

I found one of the hardware chains nearby has the 3/8" push fittings for about 1/3 as much as anywhere else I have seen them.

 

[zeke99]

This short essay (it's a website companion to a textbook) explains exactly how the red:far-red ratio works in the plant.

The first sentence is definitely new to me and also mind-blowing. Plants are highly intelligent!

http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=&id=236

Know Thy Neighbor through Phytochrome

Plants can detect the presence of neighbors very early, well before mutual shading occurs. Upon detection of the proximity of potential competitors many plants respond with a series of morphological changes, the most conspicuous of which is a strong stimulation of stem elongation (Figure 1). The increased height growth positions the plant to intercept light better when competition finally arrives.

The early perception of neighbor proximity is based on the detection of changes in the spectral composition of solar radiation that are produced by interaction of sunlight with green leaves. Leaves effectively absorb photons in the blue (B, 400–500 nm) and red wavebands (R, 500–600 nm) of the solar spectrum. Absorption in the green (400–500 nm), and particularly in the far-red region (FR, 700-800 nm) is weaker and many photons of these wavelengths are back scattered in the form of diffuse radiation. We are sensitive to the green photons that bounce off the leaves (that is why we see leaves as green), but we cannot see FR radiation because our photoreceptors are blind to wavelengths longer than 700 nm. The plant photoreceptors phytochromes, in contrast, are maximally sensitive in the R and FR regions of the spectrum.

As plants grow and the leaf area index (LAI, leaf area per unit ground area) of the canopy increases, the ratio of R to FR radiation (i.e., R:FR) of the light reaching the stems of each individual plant decreases (Figure 2A). In the very low range of LAIs (LAI < 1.0; plants do not shade each other), the R:FR decreases mainly because there is an increase in reflected FR. In dicots with erect main stems, this increase in FR modifies the light environment of the internodes (Figure 2B) without greatly affecting the spectral balance of the leaves, which is dominated by the contribution of direct sunlight. The resulting decrease in R:FR is of enough magnitude to be sensed by phytochrome molecules located in the stem tissue. The lower R:FR causes a reduction in the proportion of phytochromes that are in the active (Pfr) form and this reduction, in turn, stimulates stem elongation.




Unfortunately, the Lightscout Red/Far Red Meter retails for $895.00...

 

[delta9nxs]

then 2 of the dope plants were showing male last night so i chopped them.

remember earlier i had one showing balls. it was that one again and one more from a pack of 12 feminized seeds.

this is why i don't like seedlings. too many surprises.

How many feminized seeds did you pop in total and were The Dope the only two that went macho? Were they male or hermi?
According to what you've documented I don't see any conditions that would have led to stress.

i started 64 beans originally and the two were the only ones out of the 24 that went to transplant. leading me to believe there was a stress factor involved.

it was not light related as in the house under the flo's it was 24/7 for months and then 24/7 for the first five days in the big room. then the remaining veg time was all 18/6 with no interruptions. straight up 12/12 in flower, again with no episodes.

so i think it was the handling at transplant. remember the pics of the first one? that was less than two weeks into 18/6. too early for a response to photoperiod.

i picked them off and it returned to normal for a while.

i am pretty rough on the root balls and may have triggered a cytokinin reversal since cytokinin is produced in the roots and is the main endogenous hormone responsible for pistillate sex determination.

some plants, not just cannabis, have shown a clear tendency to reverse expression when the roots are stressed.

heat can also do it as Imaginary Friend found out when he was growing in 100 degree temps.

i think some strains may be more vulnerable to this than others. i don't believe it necessarily indicates hermaphrodite tendencies.

 

[village green]

i started 64 beans originally and the two were the only ones out of the 24 that went to transplant. leading me to believe there was a stress factor involved.

it was not light related as in the house under the flo's it was 24/7 for months and then 24/7 for the first five days in the big room. then the remaining veg time was all 18/6 with no interruptions. straight up 12/12 in flower, again with no episodes.

so i think it was the handling at transplant. remember the pics of the first one? that was less than two weeks into 18/6. too early for a response to photoperiod.

i picked them off and it returned to normal for a while.

i am pretty rough on the root balls and may have triggered a cytokinin reversal since cytokinin is produced in the roots and is the main endogenous hormone responsible for pistillate sex determination.

some plants, not just cannabis, have shown a clear tendency to reverse expression when the roots are stressed.

heat can also do it as Imaginary Friend found out when he was growing in 100 degree temps.

i think some strains may be more vulnerable to this than others. i don't believe it necessarily indicates hermaphrodite tendencies.

Is there some different way you're thinking of to achieve transplant with less shock?

The reason I asked about your banana republic is because of how people say that feminized seeds are more prone to hermi. One of my dreams next year is to have a guerilla greenhouse in the upper level of a building with plants trained low in PPKs. This makes me think I'll have to avoid starting from fem seeds due to the heat.

 

[delta9nxs]

Is there some different way you're thinking of to achieve transplant with less shock?

The reason I asked about your banana republic is because of how people say that feminized seeds are more prone to hermi. One of my dreams next year is to have a guerilla greenhouse in the upper level of a building with plants trained low in PPKs. This makes me think I'll have to avoid starting from fem seeds due to the heat.

not really because i usually don't have to stall plants. there is a point i like when a clone gets to about 12" when you can transplant with minimum root disturbance.

when i get to about a month from another transplant i'll take the tops off these rooted cuts i have now. if done with the right timing there is virtually no shock.

i don't believe that feminized seeds are more prone to hermie just because they are feminized. unless their donor plants were prone to hermie.

i have much more consistent results using clones than seeds.

 

[delta9nxs]

This short essay (it's a website companion to a textbook) explains exactly how the red:far-red ratio works in the plant.

The first sentence is definitely new to me and also mind-blowing. Plants are highly intelligent!

http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=&id=236

Know Thy Neighbor through Phytochrome

Plants can detect the presence of neighbors very early, well before mutual shading occurs. Upon detection of the proximity of potential competitors many plants respond with a series of morphological changes, the most conspicuous of which is a strong stimulation of stem elongation (Figure 1). The increased height growth positions the plant to intercept light better when competition finally arrives.

The early perception of neighbor proximity is based on the detection of changes in the spectral composition of solar radiation that are produced by interaction of sunlight with green leaves. Leaves effectively absorb photons in the blue (B, 400–500 nm) and red wavebands (R, 500–600 nm) of the solar spectrum. Absorption in the green (400–500 nm), and particularly in the far-red region (FR, 700-800 nm) is weaker and many photons of these wavelengths are back scattered in the form of diffuse radiation. We are sensitive to the green photons that bounce off the leaves (that is why we see leaves as green), but we cannot see FR radiation because our photoreceptors are blind to wavelengths longer than 700 nm. The plant photoreceptors phytochromes, in contrast, are maximally sensitive in the R and FR regions of the spectrum.

As plants grow and the leaf area index (LAI, leaf area per unit ground area) of the canopy increases, the ratio of R to FR radiation (i.e., R:FR) of the light reaching the stems of each individual plant decreases (Figure 2A). In the very low range of LAIs (LAI < 1.0; plants do not shade each other), the R:FR decreases mainly because there is an increase in reflected FR. In dicots with erect main stems, this increase in FR modifies the light environment of the internodes (Figure 2B) without greatly affecting the spectral balance of the leaves, which is dominated by the contribution of direct sunlight. The resulting decrease in R:FR is of enough magnitude to be sensed by phytochrome molecules located in the stem tissue. The lower R:FR causes a reduction in the proportion of phytochromes that are in the active (Pfr) form and this reduction, in turn, stimulates stem elongation.




Unfortunately, the Lightscout Red/Far Red Meter retails for $895.00...

not intelligence so much as a very sophisticated evolutionary survival strategy.

this is an actual molecular level switch that functions in real time like a light switch on the wall. controlling morphological adaptations to changing light conditions through gene expression.

when viewed in this context defoliating no longer can be described as "stunting".

instead it should be described as better resource management.

if, under any given set of conditions, the plant has a limited amount of resources available for growth, for mass building, would you rather have the plant busy building stem or bud sites.

paying attention to the leaf area index all the time so you don't induce serious stalls.

another aspect to this is that it is not about "quantity" of light. it is about "quality" of light.

so we have the hps's for the main source of photons, the brute force element that drives photosynthesis.

but because they are not the moving sun but are fixed emitters we can't hit all those nodal points on the stems with at least enough balanced light to control the r/fr trigger.

without supplemental lighting.

icmag member and fellow verticologist catman made a reference the other day to using flo's around the backside of a doughnut grow for enhanced production.

and they could be used that way effectively.

for actual grow power.

but for the same money you could add more hps light, more or less, and be more efficient.

but what i'm thinking about is just enough cheap light to eliminate shadows in the intra-canopy area of the plant.

if you look at spectrum on 5500k and 6500k color temp flo's they have almost no far red (740nm) at all. they do have significant red (660 nm).

the plant senses the ratio sub canopy as it is altered by the foliage between the receptor sites and the light source.

the foliage intercepts red very well but not the far red, which because of wavelength has greater penetration, and it continues on to hit the nodes.

it is the presence of far red not the absence of red that triggers the switch.

almost no far red is used in photosynthesis.

i was thinking about using some flo's this time but couldn't get to it in time. maybe the next one.

 

[DrFever]

looking good there guy any updates have you flipped to flower

 

[village green]

not intelligence so much as a very sophisticated evolutionary survival strategy.

this is an actual molecular level switch that functions in real time like a light switch on the wall. controlling morphological adaptations to changing light conditions through gene expression.

when viewed in this context defoliating no longer can be described as "stunting".

instead it should be described as better resource management.

if, under any given set of conditions, the plant has a limited amount of resources available for growth, for mass building, would you rather have the plant busy building stem or bud sites.

paying attention to the leaf area index all the time so you don't induce serious stalls.

another aspect to this is that it is not about "quantity" of light. it is about "quality" of light.

so we have the hps's for the main source of photons, the brute force element that drives photosynthesis.

but because they are not the moving sun but are fixed emitters we can't hit all those nodal points on the stems with at least enough balanced light to control the r/fr trigger.

without supplemental lighting.

icmag member and fellow verticologist catman made a reference the other day to using flo's around the backside of a doughnut grow for enhanced production.

and they could be used that way effectively.

for actual grow power.

but for the same money you could add more hps light, more or less, and be more efficient.

but what i'm thinking about is just enough cheap light to eliminate shadows in the intra-canopy area of the plant.

if you look at spectrum on 5500k and 6500k color temp flo's they have almost no far red (740nm) at all. they do have significant red (660 nm).

the plant senses the ratio sub canopy as it is altered by the foliage between the receptor sites and the light source.

the foliage intercepts red very well but not the far red, which because of wavelength has greater penetration, and it continues on to hit the nodes.

it is the presence of far red not the absence of red that triggers the switch.

almost no far red is used in photosynthesis.

i was thinking about using some flo's this time but couldn't get to it in time. maybe the next one.

Ya'll just need to stop it. You're giving me a far out headache. 800 mg ibuprofen ain't touching it. The only thing that seems to ease it is to visualize the old bud factory using shelves and flourescents. Was it Mel Frank's book? Anyhoo, I'm thinking super stretchy strains in floor level PPKs that snake up and around 4 shelves with LED/flourescent/induction/plasma mixed spectrum phototropic pulses. Ahh...that's better now.

 

[delta9nxs]

looking good there guy any updates have you flipped to flower

howdy, dr fever! welcome! i started flower on the 29th so we're at 15 days now. everything is looking good but not much different from the last set of pics. all remaining plants are budding nicely.

just letting them grow for a while.

 

[MrAwder]

Hey d9 been following along for quite a while and still remember when you originally started the PPK thread.

I'm very interested in this supplemental lighting concept. Throwing more watts of HPS at the problem is one answer but I think the advantage would come from less heat and less overall power usage. I would guess if you are already in the 50wpsf range then this would be more beneficial. Especially in vert where you should be able to get fantastic penetration even with CFL's by placing them behind the donut/trellis/screen. My extremely simplistic 2 cents.

I think I might look at adding 2 4ft tubes along each of my walls. If it doesn't work I'll have new veg fixtures.

 

[DHF]

......Ya`ll waaaaaay over my old head , but I like the knowledge......

Got many growbro` s that grow big plants with supplemental fluorescent back lighting behind the plants for increased spectrums and canopy penetration ......

D9....Love yer shit.....

Peace.....Freds.........

 

[Bud buster]

Love the room they are blowing up. I got some security light fixtures for CFL's painted the inside white they have two bulbs that can be pointed anywhere works great but with your room long tubes would be easier.

 

[stagehand099]

Hey D9, whats the backstop fencing called (opening size?), and if you got at a big-box store, mind saying which? Thanks.

stagehand

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey d9 been following along for quite a while and still remember when you originally started the PPK thread.

I'm very interested in this supplemental lighting concept. Throwing more watts of HPS at the problem is one answer but I think the advantage would come from less heat and less overall power usage. I would guess if you are already in the 50wpsf range then this would be more beneficial. Especially in vert where you should be able to get fantastic penetration even with CFL's by placing them behind the donut/trellis/screen. My extremely simplistic 2 cents.

I think I might look at adding 2 4ft tubes along each of my walls. If it doesn't work I'll have new veg fixtures.

hey, i'm not sure what happened here but i thought i had answered this once.

but anyway, i'm not talking about light for photosynthesis, what i have in mind is a small amount of light at the correct frequencies to control or at least influence the red/far red ratio as perceived by the phytochrome b receptor cells.

i do believe that sometime in the future we will be able to grow dense bud with perhaps a combination of flo's and led's.

 

[delta9nxs]

......Ya`ll waaaaaay over my old head , but I like the knowledge......

Got many growbro` s that grow big plants with supplemental fluorescent back lighting behind the plants for increased spectrums and canopy penetration ......

D9....Love yer shit.....

Peace.....Freds.........

hey freds, you know you were talking about the plants giving off co2 during lights out?

it is absolutely happening.

i have the controller set at 650 ppm with a 25 ppm dead band. with the sensor mounted dead center in the grow about 8' from the generator it will run up to about 950 ppm in the room.

i put a timer on the controller and started decreasing the on time to try to deplete the co2 before lights out.

i now have it on only 6 hours each period cutting it off at midnight halfway through the period.

it won't fire in the dark so that is the last input for the day.

at 6 am lights out the room will be around 500 ppm.

by 10 am it is up to 650 plus. it can only come from the plants.

 

[delta9nxs]

Love the room they are blowing up. I got some security light fixtures for CFL's painted the inside white they have two bulbs that can be pointed anywhere works great but with your room long tubes would be easier.

hey bud buster! welcome to icmag!