A Technique To Identify "Real Deal" Clones

[englishrick]

QTL (Quantitative Trait Locus) analysis links genetic markers with DNA base variations, such as single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and microsatellite or simple sequence repeats (SSRs) to the QTLs of interest for breeding purposes.

These are then used in linkage mapping and downstream marker-assisted breeding programs to screen for individual plants that have the traits of interest,,,,. Depending on the program, these traits could be increased yield, chemotype, disease or stress resistance, enhanced nutritional, terpenoid or oil profiles.

 

[frostqueen]

Who gets to decide which version of the ten different submitted and sequenced versions of The White or Obama Kush or Blue Magoo gets the honor of being declared the Real Deal, when ten different people absolutely swear that theirs is definitely it? When 'X' strain is submitted under ten different names but they all end up being a genetically identical clone, who gets to decide what name stays?

What this 'technique' really does in many cases is show just what a clusterfuck we have on our hands as far as 'real' names go.

Without the submitter/breeder actually having the parent stock still in their possession, I don't really see how this does much more than illustrate just how much cannabis growers and brokers have fibbed over the years, re-naming their own plant knock-offs/versions as 'real-deal clone-onlys' just to get them sold. In the coming months I predict that we will see this trend intensify in the Phylos Galaxy data; ten submitted versions of every 'real-deal clone-only' strain.

It doesn't lessen the value of the work Phylos does; in fact, their work is the only real path that shows us exactly where to go from here if we want to be factual about the true heritage of the plants in our gardens.

Also consider the requirement that any plant patent given can only be given for a plant that has never been advertised or marketed, and that any plant that has been marketed is ineligible. (Dispensary menus on leafly = advertised/marketed.) I'm curious how this registration and patenting process will develop with access to this data.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection/pvpo-application-requirements

I can't. wait. to see strains like Blueberry, AK47, White Widow, Northern Lights #5 and Skunk traced all the way back to their origins. The landrace and olde-school information is going to be pure data gold!

 

[shishkaboy]

Look at sfv. There are samples of the same sfv clone sent in as Larry, XXX, tahoe og, hitman og, flo-rida, platinum og, platinum og kush, fog, earth shaker og, and the obvious sfu og typo.

Seems like we can derive some info from that.

 

[englishrick]

I believe what would happen is that we would have groups and reference numbers,,,like the cheese group A0001,,, then it would be up to us to choose the best few from the group and from that point we could validate a clone by its reference number and sequence data

 

[frostqueen]

I believe what would happen is that we would have groups and reference numbers,,,like the cheese group A0001,,, then it would be up to us to choose the best few from the group and from that point we could validate a clone by its reference number and sequence data

I was thinking this, too. Reference numbers added to names would at least help clear up which version of any given 'clone-only' a person had. And in some cases we will find 3 or 4 identical samples submitted which will point to a likely real deal status.

My main concern is that the 'cannabis community' overall is highly competitive and rarely agrees on anything - these forums are clear evidence of that - so how do we reach a consensus that everyone will accept? This is a very hard-headed crowd. There is a lot of pride in what we have in our gardens.

As a breeder I am also especially frustrated that many of the samples I've submitted to Phylos were not actually from 'real deal' clone-onlys; this despite being very well connected in the community and getting firm assurances of legitimacy. I subsequently named my creations with names that reflected their supposed parentage... so those names are also now rendered worthless...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not too butthurt over it all. Decades of illegality will definitely create isolated localized collections of what you would think are real deal clones but are actually offspring or S1 versions of originals. The plants I have used as parents have all been amazing and stable genotypes, and I am happy with the results regardless of the naming issues.

That said, all future hybrids I create will likely now be from as far back in the gene pool as I can manage: landraces or inbred/somewhat stabilized seedlines from reputable seed breeders like Ace and Cannabiogen, etcetera. I've basically been inadvertently creating mega poly hybrids, and want to steer towards a more specific genetic heritage now. Not that those megapoly crosses have been bad; they've usually been pretty jaw-dropping. I often like to get widely varying offspring so I can pick out the freaks to keep as clone-onlys...

 

[englishrick]

Yeh,, I agree with you wholeheartedly,,,nice post,,

But what about using the analytical data to work on your own genome,, so make them jaw dropping Pollys but then incross them and create pure lines with maker assistance

 

[LostTribe]

Look at sfv. There are samples of the same sfv clone sent in as Larry, XXX, tahoe og, hitman og, flo-rida, platinum og, platinum og kush, fog, earth shaker og, and the obvious sfu og typo.

Seems like we can derive some info from that.

Shish, do you have a way to post those? I bet they are all the same cutting or watered down hybrid depending on which cut you look at. Any of them with test results with data that is skewed at a statistically significant level would obviously be of a different genetic makeup.

 

[GMT]

If you like your clone, smoke it! What does it really matter what the fashion is? Unless you are in a territory where customers are filing breach of contract or fraud cases against sellers, and you are a seller there, how does it affect you?
Until specific genes are identified, then testing is only for identity and quality, its useless for breeding.

 

[shishkaboy]

Standardization is very important. No matter what its gonna take the community to agree on the validity of cultivars.

There are many blue dreams but only one is directly related to djs blue and ssh.

Heres the sfv info, does anyone understand the genetic novelty score section?

I.just dont get it. What is is saying?

Just the fact there is an obvious typo shown to match up with other claimed sfv's tells me that the system is working.

 

[Chunkypigs]

Look at sfv. There are samples of the same sfv clone sent in as Larry, XXX, tahoe og, hitman og, flo-rida, platinum og, platinum og kush, fog, earth shaker og, and the obvious sfu og typo.

Seems like we can derive some info from that.

nope, they are not running enough data for $300 to tell all those samples apart from each other so they are lumped into the same part of the "galaxy".

at this point there have to be 20-30 OG Kush S1's on the market in Cali.
there were half a dozen types of cookies in 2 years time. they are not all equal.

notice they don't have any data on exact parents for these strains they test just 6 groups of genetic donors:
Hemp
CBD
Landrace
Berry
Skunk
OG Kush

this seem to me more like really watered down subjective "research" designed to harvest dollars from growers not figure out the beginning and end of the cannabis genome which is currently expanding rapidly in my closet.

QTL (Quantitative Trait Locus) analysis links genetic markers with DNA base variations, such as single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and microsatellite or simple sequence repeats (SSRs) to the QTLs of interest for breeding purposes.

These are then used in linkage mapping and downstream marker-assisted breeding programs to screen for individual plants that have the traits of interest,,,,. Depending on the program, these traits could be increased yield, chemotype, disease or stress resistance, enhanced nutritional, terpenoid or oil profiles.

Yeh,, I agree with you wholeheartedly,,,nice post,,

But what about using the analytical data to work on your own genome,, so make them jaw dropping Pollys but then incross them and create pure lines with maker assistance

you are talking about millions in research costs, nothing like this is ever going to be available for internet growers and closet seed makers.
that's the work only big pharma and tobacco can afford.

if we get lucky there will be a booming market in clone stores in cali or another state after recreational passes that will make it easier to get accurate genetics spread everywhere.

I think what's more likely to happen is that regulation quickly throttles innovation in breeding as most small growers lose their opportunity to sell to the medical markets.

Colorado made it's licensed testing labs off limits to the public and medical patients after recreational passed.

 

[englishrick]

There has to be someone who can do this,,,all we have to do is convince them to do this,

I'm waiting for someone who could possibly manage this genetic setups to chime in ,, someone has to be up to the challenge,,if it's a good idea it's a good idea,,no?

 

[Loc Dog]

the terpene tests being done now will let you know if you are in the right ballpark.

here's a copy of my post in a different thread.
I've been interested in the cannabiniod profiles of various clone only medical strains and every
few months I go visit the labs who post their results online to compare the similarity of things like OG, Diesels, GSC, TW, hazes etc.

SC labs in Cali has a 33 point analysis that costs extra but you can find by using the radio buttons
to the left of this website and click on Terpene and then the type of sample you are interested in, flower,hash etc.
http://sclabs.com/tested.html?view=grid&type=Flower,Indica,Sativa&test=Terpene&limit=36&limitstart=0

you will get to an analysis that looks like this:
View Image

one thing that really interests me is the total percentage of Terpenes by weight that's at the bottom right.
It's like a volume guide to loudness..

This Seattle lab tests everything for nine Terpenes and gives a percentage weight.

http://analytical360.com/testresults

You can get a good idea of the cannabinoid fingerprints of strains by watching these websites.

you can tell if you have the same clone with a cannabiniod and terpene assay you just have to realize
that overall amounts of a given compound vary between rooms but they will resemble each other in the terps expressed.

costs less than $100 in most states that have labs.

the real standard in the future will be the store you bought your clone from.
there are already clone vendors in Cali like DHN and Wonderland and others that will be more
trusted in the future than some guy on the internet with the "Chaco" cut.

Is a terpene test accurate at identifying genetics??? Would think it would vary tremendously depending on the grower. DNA test is the only thing I would think would be accurate. I have grown GG4 a bunch of times, and got major differences.

 

[shishkaboy]

https://youtu.be/0veCgnBJDU0

One of the employees pretty much outlines what the company does in this video.

"Securing the rights to genetics for all" on yt.

 

[Loc Dog]

QTL (Quantitative Trait Locus) analysis links genetic markers with DNA base variations, such as single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and microsatellite or simple sequence repeats (SSRs) to the QTLs of interest for breeding purposes.

These are then used in linkage mapping and downstream marker-assisted breeding programs to screen for individual plants that have the traits of interest,,,,. Depending on the program, these traits could be increased yield, chemotype, disease or stress resistance, enhanced nutritional, terpenoid or oil profiles.

That would be awesome to be able to see the traits in black and white, and not someones observations.

 

[MJPassion]

https://youtu.be/0veCgnBJDU0

One of the employees pretty much outlines what the company does in this video.

"Securing the rights to genetics for all" on yt.

Just watched the vid...

HOT DAMN YALL!!!

Phylos is on our side!!!

... We're drawing a line in the sand saying these strains cannot be patented.

Watch the vid shiska posted a link to.

 

[englishrick]

Now we are talking,,,

When the service is on our side, a new day is dawning,,

 

[Cheesegez]

Fuck yer .... nice thread

 

[azad]

I can analyse the buds send em to me my brain and senses out do the computers lol.
JOKE!

 

[frostqueen]

Is a terpene test accurate at identifying genetics??? Would think it would vary tremendously depending on the grower. DNA test is the only thing I would think would be accurate. I have grown GG4 a bunch of times, and got major differences.

Lab tests show that terpene levels vary widely based upon diet and environmental factors. You might be able to see trends, though. The problem is that subsequent offspring could show the same trends.

Genotype vs. phenotype. That concept is crucial to understand for all of us. I've been at this for decades and am just now grasping the difference.

 

[KONY]

the terpene tests being done now will let you know if you are in the right ballpark.

here's a copy of my post in a different thread.
I've been interested in the cannabiniod profiles of various clone only medical strains and every
few months I go visit the labs who post their results online to compare the similarity of things like OG, Diesels, GSC, TW, hazes etc.

SC labs in Cali has a 33 point analysis that costs extra but you can find by using the radio buttons
to the left of this website and click on Terpene and then the type of sample you are interested in, flower,hash etc.
http://sclabs.com/tested.html?view=grid&type=Flower,Indica,Sativa&test=Terpene&limit=36&limitstart=0

you will get to an analysis that looks like this:
View Image

one thing that really interests me is the total percentage of Terpenes by weight that's at the bottom right.
It's like a volume guide to loudness..

This Seattle lab tests everything for nine Terpenes and gives a percentage weight.

http://analytical360.com/testresults

You can get a good idea of the cannabinoid fingerprints of strains by watching these websites.

you can tell if you have the same clone with a cannabiniod and terpene assay you just have to realize
that overall amounts of a given compound vary between rooms but they will resemble each other in the terps expressed.

costs less than $100 in most states that have labs.

the real standard in the future will be the store you bought your clone from.
there are already clone vendors in Cali like DHN and Wonderland and others that will be more
trusted in the future than some guy on the internet with the "Chaco" cut.

This still leaves out the 'human' element, which is pretty important with some strains like ECSD for example. If you really do her nice, she has the most amazing terps, if you take the same cut and just grow it okay, there are barely any terps, don't get the mouth coating effect when you smoke it either.

Testing these 2 plants would result is drastically different results, granted the ratio of each terpene to each other should still be comparable.

Even though it was the same exact mother plant.