A Study or Guerilla Soil and Moisture Content

[jakeh]

I sure do wish BackCountry was still around for this discussion. He's been our watering expert here on Ic for years and before that at OG. His absence is a gapping hole in our knowlege base and i miss his wisdom and kindness and insight.


I wanted to post this up for the guerillas living and growing in the midwest, east or southern US where the soil is limestone based and food and feed crops are regularly grown, and for those that spend all of August and September carrying gallons of water. Very often the soil in these areas will grow large cannabis plants without doing anything at all to it,. Hemp was grown in these areas in the past and if hybrids go to seed , volunteers come up next spring and grow. Cannabis will self- sow here if left unatended.

But like many, for years ive modified my planting holes with lots of compost and orgnic material. But 3 years ago i observed something that made me believe that this practice has been a huge mistake and has resulted in much more work for me with reduced outcomes at harvest time.

Let me explain.

I had some extra plants so i planted them in a spot that was remote but had decent soil. Not much care given. They were healthy and grew well, but when August came and the rain left, another story was revealed.

My main crop, (plants in the organic holes), started showing water stress so i began to carry 3 gallons per plant every 4 days. After a few weeks, i went to the remote sight to water those plants and suprisingly, they didnt seem to need water yet. Over the next 60 days, i had to water the plants planted in modified organic soil every few days, but i only had to water the plants planted in native soil once every 7-8 days. The plants in native soil NEVER wilted, but the plants planted in loose organic soil would wilt the next day if they missed their watering and temps were in the 90's..


Bottom line: The loose, rich black soil looses moisture through evaporation at almost twice the rate as the heavier, clay bearing native soil. While my deep rich soil drains very well, that looseness also alows the heat to evaporate the moisture back up through the hole quickly and that is a big deal for those that have to carry all of their water.

So for the past 2 years ive watched closely the 2 groups: 1/2 of my plants in organic holes and 1/2 in unmodified,(just ferts and lime), natural soil and recorded the results. Without exception, the organically modified holes have required almost 2X the water and the hotter it got, the more they needed while the plants planted in native soil needed less and suffered less. Yeild between the 2 grows has consistently been 15% less in the modified holes than the weed i recieve from the plants planted in native soil. I believe the reduced yeild is caused by moisture stress.


TEST IT YOURSELF. Buy 2 litlle moisture meters. Stick one in your deep rich organic hole and one in the native soil. The organic hole will disply a "dry" reading much faster than the clay based native soil .

Ive spent the last month digging the rich soil out of my guerilla holes and replacing it with native soil. Ive spent years working my ass off without realizing that i was creating a great deal of work for myself without really seeing any benefit at all from it..

Just one other note. For both years of the test, i have taken a few large buds, (same strain) from the plants grown in the rich organic soil and the buds grown in native soil that were fed with chemicals. I havent encountered a single person that can tell me which buds are which unless told, nor have i found a person that can smoke the weed and tell me which was grown orgainically and that grown with no organics.


I think i probably should have paid more attention to the fact that the farms around here raise hundreds of acres of corn, sunflowers , tobacco and soybeans without ever modifying their soil or irragating



Food for thought.

Very interesting thread. I am in the south in some low lying borderline swampy areas that were acidic and a majority clay. The biggest thing I noticed about amending soil (which i did 100% with bags of miracle grow moisture control and coir) was it made that hole a magnet for pest. Armadillos loved to dig in it because it was so easy compared to the hard clay. Ants loved looser soil because they could actually make a home in it. Termites loved it because they were constantly moist and they would work there way up the stem. I am still amazed I don't hear more problems from growers dealing with termites.
I realize this gets away from your main premise of to amend or not to and the affect on the need of water. Looking at your example of farmers they really have no choice when it comes to amending 1000 acre fields or irrigating them for that matter. Like us all they can do is pick strains that do well at the time of year they are likely to get the most water. In the south soybeans are planted much earlier than they used to be. As for amending soils and the back breaking labor involved the equivalent for farmers is to till the soil or not to and drill the seeds into the ground. The theory behind no till is it takes less energy and the soil is less likely to get compacted from repeated trips of tractors. I briefly searched google for ag based article on no till's advantages but did not find exactly what I was looking for. My only other thought is the more time you spend loosening the soil and adding amendments to retail water will cause every plant around the hole to invade it with their roots and rob you of your labor. If I remember a gallon of water weighs 5-6.5 lbs.. I'd love to see what you come up with.
jake

 

[Smoke_A_Lot]

Wow this is a good thread, a lot of useful information. I think I'm going to rethink my strategy when it comes time to plant. So let me get this straight all i have to do is till my soil, amend it with some dry fertilizer and maybe some lime and I'm good to go besides when it hasn't rained in awhile and i have to water? We have Paxton soil here in Massachusetts, Here's a description of it below, is this good?

Edit I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, I'm an indoor grower and when i grew outdoors i did so with buckets and premixed soil.

Taxonomic classification
Coarse-loamy, mixed, active, mesic Oxyaquic Dystrudepts. Paxton soils are in the Inceptisol soil order of soil taxonomy. The term "coarse-loamy" indicates that the soil has less than 18% clay and at least 15% or more particles that are fine sand or coarser. The term "mixed" indicates no single mineral is over 40 percent. The term "active" represents a ratio of the cation-exchange capacity to clay of the pedon. The term "mesic" indicates the soil developed in a temperature between 8 and 15 degrees C. The "Typic Dystrudepts" are typical profiles [typic] with low pH [dystr] with a udic soil moisture regime and are within the Inceptisol order [epts].

 

[ronbo51]

If I could remember all the details from my soil sciences classes it would be helpful, but that was a long time ago. The ideal soils are sandy clay loams, which are left over mostly from floods or glacial scouring. Indiana and the whole cornbelt has these soils to one extent or the other. River bottoms likewise. Native soils are a grab bag of mixes from thin gravels with bedrock soon to follow like Maine and any other northern area that was heavily glaciated, to heavy, nearly impenetrable clays spread throughout the south. Even these inhospitable soils usually have enough other components to grow plants. Texas has that crazy rock hard soil, good for nothing, and some western soils are poisonously alkaline. The native soil I have here in the central to southern Appalachians is pretty good. Deep, no bedrock, a decent mix of topsoil with heavy clay at 18 inches. The times I have used heavily modified soil to guerrilla grow it has been a rough road. However the last 3 years I have gone to a partly modified soil and it has worked well. The key for me is to thoroughly break up the soil and provide a wide base for the roots to travel. A pick axe is the tool to use. It busts through vegetation and can get 6 inches of depth with each swing. Two layers of digging gains a foot of depth. If you have good soil thats all you need to do. Throw in some nutes, a handful or two of dolomite and your good to go. If you have some bagged soil throw that on, mix it in real good, same deal. The more bagged soil the more the mix will evaporate. I really don't think its necessary to do all this soil modification for guerrilla grows unless your soil is just hopeless, and then only the least amount required.

 

[ronbo51]

One more thing. Clay is where all your nutrition is. Clay has a high cation exchange. By breaking up the clay real good you are giving the plant roots an easy path and valuable nutrition, especially in regards to micro nutes.

 

[jakeh]

One more thing. Clay is where all your nutrition is. Clay has a high cation exchange. By breaking up the clay real good you are giving the plant roots an easy path and valuable nutrition, especially in regards to micro nutes.

My dad always said the nutrients were in clay as well but the problem was in predominantly (90-100%) clay the nutrients are locked up since the roots cant get to them and the water is locked out. I'm sure you have seen clay crack from a drought. When a good rain comes it runs right off. As for river bottoms in the deep south or hill bottoms the humidity runs higher and mold becomes a problem.

 

[northstate]

Big thanks to D.S.T for getting a discussion started on this. So many options and guerilla is about getting the most benefit with minimal inputs. Soil holds a lot of water but finding the right place to put your project is hard. Roughing things up to about 14in and light amendments have worked well for me, also throwing in a cup of ag sulfur because soil is very alkaline here. I have found that moisture edges out light in my deciding where to put things. Plants need both but last year I put two in almost complete shade, swampy bog and twenty feet away two more with less water and more light, no contest when mid August rolled around and the sunny girls cooked. A 1/4p from 2 solo cup clones and no direct light, the experiment alone was worth it. Good luck to all of you and happy OD2011 some of you are already busy im sure! (I am) NS

 

[TokerOftheSouth]

D.S thanks for making this post, i myself am very tired of hauling water... I have nowhere near as many season's under my belt as u my brother..but i have grown a few yrs..

i myself messed up last yr and used a very high peat based mix..yes plants were nice and fat 10 oz plus..but watering every 3-4 days at times in 90-100 temps was not cool at all..but we kept em alive..

I am gunna try the mix i use Fafard's 3b along with our native red clay to try and save on watering..Best of luck to u.. i will keep watching this for more helpful hints..thanks again

 

[moondawg]

I like this discussion. Ive spent the last 3 years trying to grow totally organic and its just too much work in a guerilla setting to haul so much additives and soil in and maybe its just me, but my weed just doesnt taste any better for all of the work. Corn grows well around here so im going to give this a try. My soil has clay, but not too much

 

[ozeek]

?would adding alot more wormcastings benifit they do hold water probably more than peatmoss

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Hey all you water packers!

There's nothing that'lll open up your mind any faster to alternative and perhaps unconventional approaches to growing like packing 12-16 gallons of water for a mile or more every day for months on end!!

Ozeek, wormcasting might be ok but loose, airy products such as peat seem to speed evaportation.

I just finished another little test. I collected 1 gallon of native soil from a spot ive been growing in and then another gallon of my organic soil that has been enhanced for more than 10 years. I let them both dry out completely

I then saturated each of the 2 containers with 16 ozs of water and left them in my growshed at around 80 degrees. The organic soil registered "dry" on the 5th day. The native soil didnt register dry until the 9th day.

Side note; After some research, ive found that there is a morrocan strain that is extremely drought resistance - grows in a mountainous, arid enviroment and isnt damaged by weeks of no rain supposedly. Anybody know anything about it?.

 

[ronbo51]

Landscape and vegetable gardeners use mulch to help retain moisture. Maybe instead of hauling soil you'd be better off hauling mulch. Or take an empty bag with you to your site and rake up some leaf litter on the way. 4 inches is the standard for mulch in the landscape.
All those pictures of the Cali guys with their smart pots and custom soil mixes is what is driving all this guerrilla soil modification. Everyone figures it's the right thing to do. But they have those pots hooked up to irrigation OR they are spending every day, hours upon hours hand watering. Guerrillas don't have that option. As long as your native soil is moderately good and you bust it up wide and deep you will be able to grow large plants. Stop hauling soil and water and just let it rip.
Doc, you're shed experiment shows nearly double the ability to carry water in native soil. Thats huge. Half the water, or better yet now you might make it to the next rain. Additionally as you alluded to, strain selection is a big consideration. Just because a strain is "dank" or the west coasters are killing it doesn't mean its suitable for you to grow where you live. Even if it can finish. After the leaf spot madness and disease from this summer it should be apparent to everyone that they need to develop or buy genetics that work on a broad spectrum of growing parameters. I just bought my garden seeds for this year and every strain of veggies I bought was made with multiple considerations. Early lettuce takes the cold and brings in the early greens. Summer lettuce resists bolting and stays sweet longer. Fall and winter lettuce for the coldframes. I don't just buy the lettuce that looks the best or tastes the best. You have to look at the whole package. I cannot grow heirloom tomatoes easily or some years at all. They are prone to all sorts of leafspot disease. So I grow mostly hybrids that are proven disease resistance. You have to do this or else you will be disappointed. Some day the seed vendors for mj will give info on strains that have proven disease resistance, drought resistance, mold and cold resistance. Until then we are on our own to develop it amongst ourselves. These forums give us that opportunity. Thanks.

 

[ronbo51]

Sorry to hog space here, but I keep thinking.... thats a problem I know!! How about growers contribute info on their strain experience in regard to tough strains. Maybe a new thread or do it here. It's your ballgame doc. I grew my whole life up in Maine where the main consideration was "can it finish". Now in the south my strategy has been autos mainly because I live in the city, town really, and I can start indoors in April, transplant in early May and be done by July 4 before the heat, both weather and leo wise, gears up. But I would love to tuck a long season girl or two in somewhere. Part of the auto strategy is water. I will not haul water.Thanks again Doc.

 

[highroller614]

great info

great info

D. S. I appreciate your insight. I too live in the midwest ohio to be exact. You just changed my whole plan for my upcoming spring project. After reading this thread, I will save some money and thank you. I know its a little off topic but what strains do you recommend for guerilla applications in this area?

 

[Captain Ginyu]

Great thread, I'll be following this. I live in SE, US & I think there is a lot of lime/sand in the soil, I'll take a sample soon.

 

[ozeek]

thanks for the reply.DS,your test explains alot,daylight at some of the spots ive scouted is perfect ,but ground is hard red clay slab i think also there was some drought conditions ive seen alot of tobbaco and corn suffer im assumming a 50/50 mix will benifit,i dont want to bust it up only to have it reconstitute it self over the summer

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Sensi star fems are very resistant to the leaf blight that everyone had last year. It wont get the disease at all unless there is a plant very close with it and even then it doesnt get it bad.

jakeh, your dad is right, but you can add some sand, gypsum and lime to that hard clay and itll be ready to go.

I use a little mulch but i ve found that plate sized rocks ive gathered up and piled arond the plant work better for me. I used to hunt fishing worms by looking under rocks because there's always more moisture there. They work and theyre free around here. I sometimes use roll bale hay.

ronbo51, i think youre right about the backyard container grower influencing peoples opinions about soil and about plant yeild as well! We should all be so lucky. From my experience, guerilla growers cant carry in 200 gallons of anything and, they usually arent expecting to harvest a lb or more from every plant. God help you if the thing grows to 10' tall and 20' in circumfurance. I buy and plant 30-40 femminized plants each year and in lots of years, ive just barely managed to harvest 10lbs per season - or 4ozs per plant! On good years i get 8ozs per plant!!

highroller, im changing the way i plant too. This old dog is learning new tricks.


Ozeek, if tobacco and corn is growing in that soil without being modified,(other than the spring applied lime/ferts), throw 2 cups of construction sand or perlite(better) in each planting hole to give the roots a little air, add a little lime 30 days out and plant..

Ha! Captain, you have the opposite problem as many of us. compost and organics WILL help your situation because organics retain some moisture. Ive never recommended this soil before but HYponex potting soil is very rich and good, but its heavy in nature and isnt easy to use in pots. A $2 bag of it per hole might fix your problem.

Hey smoke a lot, I think you did the smart thing- and what all new outsiders should do. Keep it simple the first grow or 2. Buy some dirt, get a decent, easy/quick finish strain and get a harvest under your belt. Youllstill be learning about soil and strains and all of the other info 10 years from now - there's plenty of time for that. I say get some weed to smoke first.

sutra, your idea to seperate the native soil from your planting soil is one ive considered several times. The reason i havent done it is becuase im afraid the opposite will come true. In other words, im afraid the surrounding soil will have ample moisture, but because i really have a "container" grow, my isolated soill might go dry, forcing me to water when i otherwise wouldnt have to. who knows.... If you try it, let us know how it works.

 

[jakeh]

"There's nothing that'lll open up your mind any faster to alternative and perhaps unconventional approaches to growing like packing 12-16 gallons of water for a mile or more every day for months on end!! "

At 8.35 lbs per gallon you have me impressed. Hauling a 100-130lbs of water a mile will keep you in shape or kill you in the process. As for amending clay soils my dad used to point out the window at he was looking at fields of soy beans. The only way you could add a bunch of sand was for a levy to break and no one wanted that. We never discussed preparing clay soil for individual plants or anything illegal although I know there have been moonshine stills found in remote parts of the family farm. I guess we are all just a bunch of modern day moonshiners.

 

[sativa92]

you bring up some great topics DS!! whats a good approach if most of the native soil is clay?

 

[hamstring]

DS
Thanks for spreading the word about moisture loss and amendments good work. I am from the Midwest so I can only speak intelligently about my soil and we don’t have moisture loss problems.

The truth is people use all these amendments and although they work well as advertised do you really need them to pull off a successful grow? In my ealry years I too hauled perlite and peat moss and coco out to my holes thinking I was producing an environment for a successful grow. The truth is the less work the better if you ask me. Now I put plants in soil that is 30% sand or better and have never seen plant wilt I am always amazed on how well they do.

(Full disclosure--I grow in lowlands so moisture is not a concern).

Just last season I was digging holes and some of the holes looked like 40% sand and I thought, "well I dug this fucker so I am putting a plant in it." and low and
behold they did just fine. My reasoning (unscientific) was that the roots could penetrate father in the sandy soil and find the moisture they needed. I don’t worry as much as when I first started about soil content and amending it to make it perfect.

Nice work DS.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Sativa 92, i spent wed/thurs in the ag library of our university of which i am an alumni, reading about soil. Im in the middle of a crash course in soils. I have about a months worth of study to do. After i think i know what im telling you, i'll have an answer to your question. I know already that it depends on the type of clay you have. Redish blue greasy stuff that they make pottery out of has to be replaced but the clay content in my native soil makes it very good. What describes yours?

hamstring i think youre right about soil ammending and im changing courses because of it. Cannabis loves sand/ its natural habitat is sandy loam, river valleys, etc. so its not a big suprise to me. Ive used sand for years in my dirt and sprinkled around the plant it prevents snails.

Lets talk about fertilizers guys. First, the improvement to the soil and plant growth by adding a fall, winter application of ferts has turned out to be amazing to me. The difference in growth between the plants that got a fall/winter app and those that didnt was big. They were healthier and grew faster from the get go, so ive become a real believer in that and would recommend it.

But because this year im putting less effort into the planting hole, im thinking about using a couple of the cannabis specific nutes in the veg and bloom phase. Im a little worried about it though because its been my experience that a "big yeild" can be a guerillas nightmare when the rain starts and the mould sets in. I would rather harvest 8 ozs than harvest a lb of mouldy rotten buds, but i think i might try some of the Advanced nutes.

Has anybody tried them outside ?