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A Study or Guerilla Soil and Moisture Content

D.S. Toker. MD

Active member
Veteran
I sure do wish BackCountry was still around for this discussion. He's been our watering expert here on Ic for years and before that at OG. His absence is a gapping hole in our knowlege base and i miss his wisdom and kindness and insight.


I wanted to post this up for the guerillas living and growing in the midwest, east or southern US where the soil is limestone based and food and feed crops are regularly grown, and for those that spend all of August and September carrying gallons of water. Very often the soil in these areas will grow large cannabis plants without doing anything at all to it,. Hemp was grown in these areas in the past and if hybrids go to seed , volunteers come up next spring and grow. Cannabis will self- sow here if left unatended.

But like many, for years ive modified my planting holes with lots of compost and orgnic material. But 3 years ago i observed something that made me believe that this practice has been a huge mistake and has resulted in much more work for me with reduced outcomes at harvest time.

Let me explain.

I had some extra plants so i planted them in a spot that was remote but had decent soil. Not much care given. They were healthy and grew well, but when August came and the rain left, another story was revealed.

My main crop, (plants in the organic holes), started showing water stress so i began to carry 3 gallons per plant every 4 days. After a few weeks, i went to the remote sight to water those plants and suprisingly, they didnt seem to need water yet. Over the next 60 days, i had to water the plants planted in modified organic soil every few days, but i only had to water the plants planted in native soil once every 7-8 days. The plants in native soil NEVER wilted, but the plants planted in loose organic soil would wilt the next day if they missed their watering and temps were in the 90's..


Bottom line: The loose, rich black soil looses moisture through evaporation at almost twice the rate as the heavier, clay bearing native soil. While my deep rich soil drains very well, that looseness also alows the heat to evaporate the moisture back up through the hole quickly and that is a big deal for those that have to carry all of their water.

So for the past 2 years ive watched closely the 2 groups: 1/2 of my plants in organic holes and 1/2 in unmodified,(just ferts and lime), natural soil and recorded the results. Without exception, the organically modified holes have required almost 2X the water and the hotter it got, the more they needed while the plants planted in native soil needed less and suffered less. Yeild between the 2 grows has consistently been 15% less in the modified holes than the weed i recieve from the plants planted in native soil. I believe the reduced yeild is caused by moisture stress.


TEST IT YOURSELF. Buy 2 litlle moisture meters. Stick one in your deep rich organic hole and one in the native soil. The organic hole will disply a "dry" reading much faster than the clay based native soil .

Ive spent the last month digging the rich soil out of my guerilla holes and replacing it with native soil. Ive spent years working my ass off without realizing that i was creating a great deal of work for myself without really seeing any benefit at all from it..

Just one other note. For both years of the test, i have taken a few large buds, (same strain) from the plants grown in the rich organic soil and the buds grown in native soil that were fed with chemicals. I havent encountered a single person that can tell me which buds are which unless told, nor have i found a person that can smoke the weed and tell me which was grown orgainically and that grown with no organics.


I think i probably should have paid more attention to the fact that the farms around here raise hundreds of acres of corn, sunflowers , tobacco and soybeans without ever modifying their soil or irragating



Food for thought.
 
T

tonto

why didnt you just cover your own organic soil with the native soil, rather than dig it up? surely a layer on top would help stop the evap
 
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D.S. Toker. MD

Active member
Veteran
tonto, where i had grown in the same holes for many years and dumped 2 gallons of compost on the hole each fall, after years the holes are 6' in diameter and 2' deep with black dirt so there was just so much of it.

I know what youre thinking though: If i could stop the tendency for the moisture to evaporate by applying a topping or even with heavy mulch then i might benefit from the organics down below.. I tried a number of approaches to stop the evaporation but was really unsuccessful. I had a little success in one hole in which i cut a round piece of plastic to cover the root area and cut an 8" hole where the main stem would be, so that the plant could still get air. Then i put mulch over the piece of plastic. That did increase the moisture retention a little bit but not enough. Reguardless of how much mulch i put down, my little moistrue meter read, " dry" much sooner in the organic soil than it did in the native, clay based soil,
 

D.S. Toker. MD

Active member
Veteran
I use roll bale hay Mildstoner. I stop in the field and pick it up on the way. I use the strings to tie stakes with!


hmmmmmmmm SOUNDS good to me.hope its true

Grow them side by side, one organic/one not ganjasuiteseat. . The results arent hard to see.


I dig a hole 24WX14D by no later than March 1 and put a 2/3 cup of petroleum based ferts- (im using 10-10-10), mixed well in the hole and then i leave it. By april 1, i come back, turn the hole over and add 2/3 cups of pellitized lime.

30 days later, May 1 or so i turn the hole again and plant. At that point, i add a ring of a 90 day slow release/ high nitrogen petroluem based fert around the outer edges of the hole.
This approach is producing plants as large or larger than the organically grown plants with 1/2 of the watering and far far less soil packing and digging...

(ALL LIME manufacturers warn NOT to apply nitrogen bearing fertilizers within 30 days of a lime app: its important to follow that advice so spread out the 2 apps)..
 
Very interesting. I'm assuming you're familiar with the term fertigation? Were the organic holes as well fed as the other ones?

Edit, no no, fertigation is NOT the word I'm looking for, but basically overfertilized soil requires less water.
 
You did all this with no documentation to show it ?

He's DS toker, he's the fucking guerrilla guru, I'll take what he says without 'documentation', beides, it makes perfect sense, it's well known that soils higher in clay retain more moisture.

DS, you use polymer crystals right?
 
Hmmm..if you're growing in the ground and still having to manually water, then the location is far from ideal. Which alot of times I know you have to go with what you have, but we often have summers where it doesn't rain for a couple weeks and the temps are in the 90-100s and I never have to haul water to plants in the ground.

The trick is to wait until a 'dry spell' where it hasn't rained for a couple weeks or longer. Then dig a hole in the ground wherever you're thinking about planting, to the depth you're going to make the holes. If the ground is damp then chances are you won't have to water even the biggest of plants all year. Even with a soil mix that is much lighter than the native soil, with proper mulching it will stay moist.

You're not going to find soil like this on top of a hill obviously, and hills tend to be the best place as far as open sothern exposure..but if you can find some land in a 100 or 500 year floodplain, with good that gets good sun and plant where the soil is moist two feet or so below the surface but still solid then that is the ideal spot IMO
 

D.S. Toker. MD

Active member
Veteran
Leroy, i dont know that term, but the plants werent fed the same really. The organic filled grow hole get a little less because they show less need,(slower growth) and because the organic already has lots of nutrients available and fewer supplements are needed.

I dont use polymer crystals Leroy. I did a little test a few years back where i had 4 plants grown in the same location. 2 with polymers, 2 without. Marginallly, they had an impact, but 30 days after the rain stopped and the heat cranked up, there wasnt any difference in the watering needs of the 4 plants. Given their expense I thought them a waste.

Da purps, I started documenting, but within 30 days i sensed that activity as useless given the differences that become apparant very quickly once the rain stops. One group of plants looks healthy and contiues to grow, and the other group begins to show stress and present a "water or wilt" scenario. .But $10 bucks for 2 little moisture meters tell the story in a hurry, or just plant 2 plants side by side. I was supprised by the result of doing that

Angustotse, our weather has changed dramatically here over the past 10 years or so. It used to be a growers paradise, good soil, 1" of rain per week. A grower could plant seeds and come back in oct and harvest. Those days are gone. Now, it stops raining at the end of july and we dont get another drop until late oct. Whats worse, last year and preceeding years, we had 25 days over 95 degress and 45 over 90. And there is now a hot dry wind that blows and trees begin to loose their leaves in late August. Climate change is real here and starting in mid August, its 12 gallons of water per day, 7 days a week until harvest and at this point, yeild is directly related to the amount of moisture they reicieve. Carrying the water gets old so i hunt for anyway to reduce that work load and this is one of them.

About the mulching, it helps. But after weeks of drought, the surrounding soil is so dry that it leaches any moisture from your hole into the surrounding soil. Its no longer just a question of evaporation then.
 

sutra1

Member
I agree "carrying the water gets old" and I have to take longer & longer hikes in, not wanting to leave a direct trail in to my spot. And yes, the weather is undergoing climate- change. Last year was very dry from early July through mid-Sept.

To solve this I was thinking of digging a much deeper & wider hole and lining it with a plastic barrier. But if it was a very wet year it might lead to root rot.

What is you're opinion Dr.?
 

Maina

Active member
Veteran
SCREW lugging water.Put them on the edge of a swamp and go organic soil mix in grow bags bags are in 1 inch of water 20 gallon bags put them out june first came buck oct 6 tada 6 plants 3 lb of GHS WW
016-7-1-1.jpg

Stake the bags down with 4 4 foot bamboo peaces or they will blow over then start tying them to the trees behind them befor they bud the buds are heavey its the only way to go guys
012-8-1.jpg
:jump:
 

Maina

Active member
Veteran
Realy who can get easer than that:laughing:
tom hills mix works great go by that I did! I did add azomite and kelp meal.1 table spoon each for each gallon of soil mix I used plastic grow bags but realy go with 20 gallon smart pots there better.find the spots on google earth face them into the sun set,have the sun set facing the plants that way you get sun all day and the sun burnes the dew of the plants in the morning so the mold stays away.And the GHS WW worked very well good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Compost,peat,perilite,worm shit,30%,30%,30%,10% .You ow me a twisted tea for that info man :tiphat:
 

ronbo51

Member
Veteran
I lived and grew guerrilla style in Maine for over 20 years and never once hauled water. Without the daily onslaught of 90 degree days it was easy. Also I was never a big soil modification guy. I always just dug the native soil up real good, threw some organic slow release Espoma and a few handfuls of lime and walked away. Results were almost always respectable. Now I live in the southern Appalachians and its way different. Water needs are real and can't be ignored. After 6 years here I have discovered that mixing half native clay based soil with promix or its equivalent is best. The clay is way too much by itself, and a hole completely filled with promix just won't work, due to drying. So half and half is my gig. And the only watering I do is to apply liquid nutes now and again. I will not haul water.
 
maina can you explain the sunset thing a bit more detailed? i am confused b/c i thought having plants biased to early morning sun was better in swamps to dry them off really quickly in morning.... im not saying im right just trying to understand
 

D.S. Toker. MD

Active member
Veteran
I swear by morning sun apartmentblower. I look for spots that have it.


Ronbo1, I know what you mean about the heavy clay. Its become apparant that clay in the hole is a good thing for me, but too much is worse than not enough. Fortunately, the percentage of clay in my soil isnt so much that rooting is impacted. I always use area corn growing as a soil indicator. Generally, in a geographic area where a field can be plowed, fertilized and then planted successfully with corn, one can follow the same method and successfully grow Cannabis.
 

Maina

Active member
Veteran
maina can you explain the sunset thing a bit more detailed? i am confused b/c i thought having plants biased to early morning sun was better in swamps to dry them off really quickly in morning.... im not saying im right just trying to understand
I will try you want your plant faceing the sunrise but you also want the sun to rise towards the plants and set over the plants.So lets look at it like this the sun comes up at 12:00 your plant is at 6:00 and the sun sets at 6:00 like that
 

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