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A real tipping point in America...is about to be reached?

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
Not sure where you live but we've restricted guns from felons for decades. It's just a big stink atm because of a democrat in the oval office and recent hate crimes legislation.

Last peak in gun ownership - 1993
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
Not sure where you live but we've restricted guns from felons for decades. It's just a big stink atm because of a democrat in the oval office and hate crimes legislation.

Last peak in gun ownership - 1993

You are correct, hate crimes legislation (thought crime) and denial of 2nd amendment rights are just a few examples of how we are being repressed (for decades now as you correctly point out). Also this government is taking proactive steps to deny 2nd amendment rights to registered legal cannabis users in med states, irrespective of criminal background. god bless AmeriKa!

My question was where in the US constitution does it allow for tiered level of rights? I missed the section that said if you did x or y then you were stripped of your constitutional rights.

:joint:
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
You are correct, hate crimes legislation (thought crime)

It's a load more than thought, Hydrosun. When two men decided to "think" about being free enough to tie another man to their truck bumper, they broke the law when they acted on those thoughts. Freedom of expression doesn't include weird ideas that some folks' freedom is freer that others'.

and denial of 2nd amendment rights are just a few examples of how we are being repressed (for decades now as you correctly point out)
I never considered criminals so-called rights to carry as repressed.

Also this government is taking proactive steps to deny 2nd amendment rights to registered legal cannabis users in med states, irrespective of criminal background. god bless AmeriKa!
If you add unrestricted guns to unrestricted freedom, expect unrestricted consequences. Ben Franklin warned of folks usurping freedom of expression as license to - whatever.

My question was where in the US constitution does it allow for tiered level of rights?
commerce and general welfare - two very broad clauses.

I missed the section that said if you did x or y then you were stripped of your constitutional rights.

:joint:
You also missed the part that says, "This here is all the laws we'll ever pass." Just kidding, you didn't miss that part. The Constitution is the legal basis to govern from not on. Besides, the less fed power you lose, the more state power you'll receive.

And if Ron Paul really wants top go back to the Articles of Confederation, he'll learn from history exactly why we (the states) gave the powers of arbitrating commerce and promoting general welfare to the feds.
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
A) Murder has always been a crime so who gives a shit if it is black on black, white on white or mixed?

B) What the fuck is "So Called" about the US Constitution? Again where does it say that one may be stripped of their constitutional rights? Even if the people in question are criminals, such as yourself and I; where does the government derive its power to create tiered levels of rights?

C) Really gun owners are the problem? There is always unrestricted consequences with freedom. See (A) above and your example of truck bumpers. If there is unrestricted freedom with truck bumpers does that mean there will be unrestricted murder via motor vehicle?

D) Nope there is no mealy mouth concern of general welfare clause in the constitution, and there is certainly NO clauses speaking to striping rights from a person. In fact striping rights and creating a teared levels of rights, violates the US Constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

E) Since the Constitution is the foundation of our government it may not be violated by legislation (try building a house outside of its foundation and let us know what physics thinks). A constitutional amendment is required to change restrictions imposed on governmental action. I am not arguing federalism or states rights; I am pointing out that the government we live under is immoral and violative of its founding principles.

F) We the states and we you and I didn't and don't do shit. The foundation, fucked up or otherwise, was laid generations before our birth and any speculation of how it would be if things were different is meaningless.

Freedom is the only answer.

:joint:
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
A) Murder has always been a crime so who gives a shit if it is black on black, white on white or mixed?

Me for one and a whole lot of others. Murder is a crime but the guy I exampled was killed because he was black, not because he did anything to either of his assailants. A gay man was strapped to a fence and left to die, not because he did anything to anybody but because he was gay.

You're right, murder is a crime in itself. But most folks mitigate their own chances of being murdered by the company they keep and the actions they limit themselves. But several groups of minorities, including abortion providers have to fear for their lives regardless of their personal circumstances - because of hate.

KKK and Neo-Nazis can parade to their hearts content but there's something about acting on hate that begins to impinge on the freedoms of others.

B) What the fuck is "So Called" about the US Constitution? Again where does it say that one may be stripped of their constitutional rights? Even if the people in question are criminals, such as yourself and I; where does the government derive its power to create tiered levels of rights?
Where does the Constitution start, the words on the paper or some preconceived notion of natural rights? The right to form militia isn't legal forward to zero gun laws.

C) Really gun owners are the problem? There is always unrestricted consequences with freedom.
If you've been around guns very much you know there's some stupid shit-heads doing stupid shit with guns.

See (A) above and your example of truck bumpers. If there is unrestricted freedom with truck bumpers does that mean there will be unrestricted murder via motor vehicle?
I think the act of tying the chain around the man's neck and dragging him until it ripped off was enough to constitute a hate crime. Especially when the driver admitted they killed the guy because he was black, walking down the road alone, easy to victimize - oh and they just happened to hate black people - enough to kill a random black person.

D) Nope there is no mealy mouth concern of general welfare clause in the constitution,
I believe it specifically says, "promote the general welfare". Not the Reagan idea of "welfare" like "welfare queen". You know, infrastructure, services, etc.

and there is certainly NO clauses speaking to striping rights from a person.
The Constitution is to govern from as much as by. The Constitution is as much the basis of subsequent laws as the law itself. The Constitution never established gun rights for anything more than revolution and nobody here's gonna resort to that degree of craziness. Every time some nut bag goes off thinking he'll start the whatever, everybody stands back and watches.

In fact striping rights and creating a teared levels of rights, violates the US Constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment.
I consider this degree of opinion cruel and unusual.:) Read about the transition from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution and you'll discover eight years of dysfunctional state commerce because states cannot arbitrate between themselves.

If Dr Paul had his way, another state could say "yes" when your state says "no" and there's little one can do short of shooting people.

E) Since the Constitution is the foundation of our government it may not be violated by legislation (try building a house outside of its foundation and let us know what physics thinks).
The foundation is physical. The Constitution is subject to interpretation. That's why we have odd numbers of justices so we may democratically decide matters of constitutionality. No less than 38 representatives signed the Constitution and to assume they all nailed the identical concept is fleeting. These men not only compromised their wishes, they each owned a literal interpretation of what they wrote.

A constitutional amendment is required to change restrictions imposed on governmental action. I am not arguing federalism or states rights; I am pointing out that the government we live under is immoral and violative of its founding principles.
Amendments require at least 35 states to ratify. You might be more effective arguing constitutionality with examples instead of the wholesale approach.

) We the states and we you and I didn't and don't do shit.
Check your history and civics on that,

The foundation, fucked up or otherwise, was laid generations before our birth and any speculation of how it would be if things were different is meaningless.
Might want to quantify with a constitutional scholar.

Freedom is the only answer.

:joint:
What if freedom amounts to anarchy?
 

HUGE

Active member
Veteran
Disco we get it your a big sissy who wants to be protected by your loving government. It's all becoming clear. You believe what they say and think they have your best interests at heart. What a pitiful existence. Freedom, liberty , justice. Or give me death
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
You don't have to limit yourself to pitiful discourse. If you take the time to post, take the time to express something.
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
The 2nd amendment to the US Constitution is a protected right of INDIVIDUALS, in the same way the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments are protected rights of individuals. The 9th amendment is a fundamental constitutional guarantee that the enumerated rights 1 - 8 in the Bill of Rights are not the only rights and may not be used to limit or disparage other unenumerated rights guaranteed to the individual. The right to privacy is one of those unenumerated rights of the individual.

The 10th amendment reserves to the state and PEOPLE all rights not specifically granted to the federal or state government.

Now if I have a 2nd amendment right to form a militia, and this is a constitutionally protected fundamental right; then the government has no say as to how I arm or supply my militia. Any state or federal restrictions to the 2nd amendment are unconstitutional per se, because you may not legally modify the rights granted under the constitution with out an amendment (ratified by 3/4ths of the states or 38 states of 50).

The fact that you or others don't like individuals forming militias or possessing all manner of arms doesn't usurp the constitution.

No conjecture can change the plain language of INDIVIDUAL guarantees. The fact that the country is imperfect and regularly violates the rights of individuals does not change the powerful meaning of the US Constitution and the light it shines on freedom.

9 men and women in robes have always blessed the immoral and unconstitutional actions of the other two branches of government. The fact that they belatedly come to their senses and break with precedent or invalidate a law as unconstitutional does not mean the country was acting ethically prior to the decision; the exact opposite is true, the court acknowledges the immorality of the government and upholds the right of the individual.

:joint:
 
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Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
It goes without saying that the government may not legally or ethically violate the constitution in order to promote the general welfare.

:joint:
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
The 2nd amendment to the US Constitution is a protected right of INDIVIDUALS, in the same way the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments are protected rights of individuals.

The right to keep and bear arms directly references militia. Two SCOTUS rulings have since ratified the 2nd amendment to include personal rights (in 2008 and 2010.) This suggests the need to clarify. Aren't you glad I don't apply the static argument?:) In other words, application is where we run into matters of constitutionality and I'm cool with practical application.

I just happen to think that practical application comes in the form of reasonable restrictions. But I can imagine that someone who really feels they'll someday be running around in the snow yelling "Wolverines" and popping caps would want to leave their options open.

I'm can agree to disagree on matters of opinion. I still love ya either way. But a point of reference helps when debating literal interpretation.

We have scholars and lawmakers who mete out constitutionality and judges who rule accordingly. Some laws pass the test and others fail. One man/one interpretation renders the idea of democratic institutions moot. Individual ideas got us here but they compromised when signing the same document. Since they left no literal interpretations other than the document itself, literal interpretation is passed on to contemporaries who effect applications.

The 9th amendment is a fundamental constitutional guarantee that the enumerated rights 1 - 8 in the Bill of Rights are not the only rights and may not be used to limit or disparage other enumeration rights guaranteed to the individual. The right to privacy is one of those unenumerated rights of the individual.

The 10th amendment reserves to the state and PEOPLE all rights not specifically granted to the federal or state government.

Now if I have a 2nd amendment right to form a militia, and this is a constitutionally protected fundamental right; then the government has no say as to how I arm or supply my militia. Any state or federal restrictions to the 2nd amendment are unconstitutional per se, because you may not legally modify the rights granted under the constitution with out an amendment (ratified by 3/4ths of the states or 38 states of 50).

The fact that you or others don't like individuals forming militias or possessing all manner of arms doesn't usurp the constitution.

No conjecture can change the plain language of INDIVIDUAL guarantees. The fact that the country is imperfect and regularly violates the rights of individuals does not change the powerful meaning of the US Constitution and the light it shines on freedom.

9 men and women in robes have always blessed the immoral and unconstitutional actions of the other two branches of government. The fact that they belatedly come to their senses and break with precedent or invalidate a law as unconstitutional does not mean the country was acting ethically prior to the decision; the exact opposite is true, the court acknowledges the immorality of the government and upholds the right of the individual.

:joint:
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
I'll agree to disagree, but leave on a point of clarification (since we are clarifying our arguments and the court presumes to clarify the Constitution). Scholar's and lawmakers are all well and good however they have no power but that granted through the US Constitution.

If "The need to clarify" is code for ignore the Constitution and refuse to amend it while simultaneously imposing "clarification" on the disenfranchised then the government so acting has no legitimate authority.

Practical restriction on my specifically enumerated rights of speech, religion, or militia building is immoral. If the government wants the moral high ground let them amend the constitution by 75% of the states and I'll shut up about my rights. Otherwise one man's practical restrictions are in fact the immoral slavery of another mans natural rights and rights under the Constitution. No amount of scholars or judicial agreement makes moral the failings of our past or current.

:joint:
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
I see your point and gather that folks have differences of standard. If law seeks to establish practical standard as opposed to irresponsibly limiting individual freedoms, I consider it promoting the general welfare. Just my opinion.

Gabby Giffords' staff member and the civilian child might not have been killed had the gunman not carried a 31 bullet clip [and] license to buy weapons despite his history of mental illness.

I'm sure somebody's paranoid enough to think they need something like that but do we really have to make em available for psychos? If not, we may have to consider practical restrictions. (That's a rhetorical question so answer or ignore at will.):redface:
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
I see your point and gather that folks have differences of standard. If law seeks to establish practical standard as opposed to irresponsibly limiting individual freedoms, I consider it promoting the general welfare. Just my opinion.

Gabby Giffords' staff member and the civilian child might not have been killed had the gunman not carried a 31 bullet clip [and] license to buy weapons despite his history of mental illness.

I'm sure somebody's paranoid enough to think they need something like that but do we really have to make em available for psychos? If not, we may have to consider practical restrictions. (That's a rhetorical question so answer or ignore at will.):redface:

You want reasonable restrictions on the 2nd amendment (no 31 bullet clips, no 2nd amendment rights for certain bad guys, etc. etc.; because you believe that promotes the general welfare).

I want reasonable restrictions on the 1st amendment (no christianity, no islam; because I believe those are violent organizations that have committed mass murdered for millenia).

Other people want additional reasonable restriction and before you know it we are over the tipping point and we have reasonably restricted away all the rights of our neighbors and they have reasonably eviscerated our rights.

Perhaps the authors of the constitution saw how easy it would be for the majority to reasonably limit rights UNLESS there was a specific provision requiring a super majority. Since there is a super majority required to modify the rights under the constitution; the founders REJECTED reasonable restrictions through legislation and instead REQUIRED reasonable restrictions come through AMENDMENT.

God bless AmeriKa.

:joint:
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
You want reasonable restrictions on the 2nd amendment (no 31 bullet clips, no 2nd amendment rights for certain bad guys, etc. etc.; because you believe that promotes the general welfare).

I want reasonable restrictions on the 1st amendment (no christianity, no islam; because I believe those are violent organizations that have committed mass murdered for millenia).

Other people want additional reasonable restriction and before you know it we are over the tipping point and we have reasonably restricted away all the rights of our neighbors and they have reasonably eviscerated our rights.

Perhaps the authors of the constitution saw how easy it would be for the majority to reasonably limit rights UNLESS there was a specific provision requiring a super majority. Since there is a super majority required to modify the rights under the constitution; the founders REJECTED reasonable restrictions through legislation and instead REQUIRED reasonable restrictions come through AMENDMENT.

God bless AmeriKa.

:joint:

I could see where taking your guns away might necessitate amendment but Congress and JD are capable of restrictions. Besides, you have less gun restrictions than ever before. Not really sure why it's such a CONTENTIOUS subject.
 

wantaknow

ruger 500
Veteran
unemployment is 20 right now ,it always worse than they let on look at the japanes reactors that are melting down ,kids are falling dead in class with no previous signs of illness but there heart stops due to uranium deterating the heart muscles ,dont think they will ever be honest with you ,loo at the german movementin 34,just get on the train ,....
 

TLoft13

Member
We may not be inherently equal because of *genetic accidents but we should make it our mission to level the playing field as much as possible and that mostly includes helping people reach their fullest potential no matter the accident of their genetic make-up. It also means limiting some extra smart or strong person's ability to take over a market with greed and self interest by regulating the market place, thus destroying the libertarian utopian idea of a "free market" so that we can all have a more fair shake.

*Accidents of genetics include but are not limited to wealth of family/economic circumstance, race, IQ or learning ability, health factors etc.

This implies another thing: Equal distribution one of the most basic and most important ressources- sex. So we enslave all beautifull women and get them at gunpoint to sleep and breed with the dumb & the ugly?
You're completly dellusional, and your "Utopia" is a dysfunctional, totalitarion dictatorship.
 

komrade komura

Active member
Do we really need any more leaders? History shows that few of them are very good and the best way to measure them is by body count.

Perhaps we should try direct democracy for awhile. Technologically we can easily have referendums after dinner each day.
 

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