A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning

[dr-stevo]

I think that you should always aim for FIM when you top. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Either way, you can always top the secondary shoots and get similar results.

What are the advantages of FIMing over topping. They seem to produce the same result but with topping you are cutting off less so to me this seems more efficient.

Will FIMing result in shorter plants like topped ones do?

Another question on FIMing - you said in the original post "leaving a small portion of the growth on the main shoot intact, the plant will for some reason assume that four shoots, instead of two". Do you mean that if I cut off the whole of the growth on the main shoot will this result in 2 shoots, and if I cut off about 80% it will result in 2 shoots? By the way is there a proper term for when you cut off the whole of the growth?

 

[Kodiak]

There's probably a technical term for topping a plant but I don't know what it is. Topping says a lot and is widely used, so that works for me.

FIM topping gives you 4 new dominant shoots (in some cases 3), instead of two. FIM topping only works when you leave a little bit of growth left on the main shoot, located on the central stem.

Regular topping will usually give you 2 new dominant shoots. They can be topped in turn, so that you get 4 shoots as with FIMing. The difference being that the FIM topped shoots might grow slightly larger if you stop there.

FIMing really doesn't matter all that much to me because I top and train the plants so many times in veg, that I end up with lots of shoots anyway. FIM topping becomes important when you only top the plant once.

Other than that, there's little difference between the two techniques. In both cases, you will cancel out the apical dominance, resulting in a bushy plant. The more you top and train the plant, the shorter and bushier it gets. Properly applied, you can have the nodes so close together that the bud och each branch grows into just one big "stick", completely covering the stems.

I remember someone telling me that they used a toenail clipper for FIMing. That's probably a good idea.

 

[delic]

Kodiak, Myciorrhiza is available from a few UK garden suppliers. I discovered it quite recently and use it when potting up and sprinkle a little in my ACT. Am loving the results so far. I can put up the vendors link if you like?

-delic

 

[Kodiak]

Sure delic, that would be great

That stuff makes a huge difference because it can increase root mass by as much as 1000 times. The microfilaments of the fungus are much smaller in diameter than plant roots, enabling the symbitoic fungus to penetrate further into the ground. The microfilaments fan out from the plant roots, increasing the total mass. This has a huge positive effect on water and nutrient uptake. The plants basically never get sick.

You only need a little bit to get started because it spreads fast and grows rapidly in mass. You can then re-use the soil containing the mycorrhiza.

I read a French study where they grew pine trees in a controlled environment. The ones that were inoculated with the fungus spores, grew twice as big in half the time. They also showed increased health and vigor, as well as resistance to environmental stress and insect predation.

Mycorrhiza also works as a buffer between roots and soil, as it becomes a "middle man". It helps with buffering out problems like pH fluctuations etc. The plant can handle more stress and hostile environments thanks to it.

Some 90% of all plants can form the symbiotic relationship with the root fungus. Cannabis is no different. This goes back millions of years. Actually, I read somewhere that weeds can form the relationship with a great number of different types of the root fungus. In nature, it basically aids in creating a huge underground network, connecting plants to each other and even mushrooms. Mycorrhiza and other fungus/mushrooms, need different things than plants, so it supplies the plant with what it needs, in exchange for nutrients that it wants. The larger the network, the more it buffers out problems for individual plants as large trees can also link up.

Symbiotic relationships are beneficial for both parties, making it the complete opposite of parasitism. It's a cool win-win situation. Mushrooms and plants working together, it's almost too good to be true. It's the most benign relationship that can be formed between different species in nature.

There are some really strange symbiotic relationships in nature. I remember reading that there is a tree that forms natural bee hives and ant nests on specialized appendages. Basically it's a round ball with tunnels going through it. Then, the insects just move in and defend the tree ferociously. The tree also feeds the insects by producing massive amounts of nectar in conveniently formed flowers. So, they basically never have to leave the tree, freeing up time for other important things.

 

[AcesBasis]

Hi Kodiak & Fellow IC Maggers...!

Hi Kodiak & Fellow IC Maggers...!

Thanks a bunch Kodiak,
Sorry for the late reply as hadn't logged on my other comp. Just though I'd give you a bit of an update on the baby's & let you know how its going. Also thanks for the great news about the symbiotic fungi, I found a site that sells it in powder form and its not too dear by the kilo, Here is some more info.

Details

Most mycorrhiza products sold today only contain endomycorrhiza which limits the spectrum of crops mycorrhiza can be used. MycoGold is a complete balanced mycorrhiza blend including endomycorrhiza, ectomycorrhiza, trichoderma and beneficial bacteria to increase plant compatibility and boost production.
Most soils have had their mycorrhizal population destroyed via over use of pesticides, fallow land, crop rotation and soil degradation. The loss of these mycorrhizal populations has increased the crops reliance on expensive inputs like fertiliser/pesticides and water. Replacing the mycorrhizal fungi can make the crop is less reliant on expensive inputs and still achieve maximum production.

Key Benefits

• Decades of research into beneficial mycorrhizal use in agriculture crops.
• Contains endomycorrhiza and ectomycorrhiza for board spectrum crop species support. 95% of all crops/plants are compatible (list at end).
• Contains trichoderma which has a wide range of benefits.
• Fine 250 micrometer powder for rapid uptake.
• Use less fertiliser
• Drought resistance
• Improve soil condition
• Disease protection
• Better plant growth
• Sequester carbon
• Bigger root growth
• Improves uptake of nutrients
• Economical to use

Specifications

• 4 species of Endomycorrhizae (Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum and Glomus clarum) - 600 thousand propagules per kilogram minimum.
• 2 species of Ectomycorrhizae (Pisolithus tinctorius and Scleroderma sp.) - 110 million propagules per kilogram minimum.
• 2 species of Trichoderma (Trichoderma harzianum and Trichoderma koningii).
• 1 species of Bacillus (Bacillus subtilis).
• Also contains humic acid / vitamins and other selected beneficial bacteria but not listed as proprietary.

Pack Sizes

• 200 grams or 1 kg foil protected resealable bags.

Application Rates

Turf / Lawns: Apply 10 g per 1 m² and water into soil profile.
Orchard / Vineyard: Apply 10 g per 1 m² around the active root zone(area irrigated normally about 1m² per plant) and water into soil profile.
Vegetables: 0.25 g per plant and water into soil profile.
Home Garden: Apply 10 - 50 g per 1 m² and water into soil profile.
Nursery: Apply 10 g per 1 m² and water into soil profile.
Potting Mix: 25 g per 25 L bag or 300 g per m³.
Transplanting: Apply/Dip to water damped roots until covered. Try to apply at least ¼ - 1 teaspoon per plant depending on transplant size.
Seedlings: 1 - 2 g per 10 seedling cells. Apply to surface and water into potting mix or apply via watering can.
Tree Planting: 10 g per tree placed directly under the root ball in the planting hole.
Tree Saplings (up to 1 year): 20 g per tree watered in around the root zone. Apply enough water to carry the mycorrhizal to the root zone.
Trees (Established): 5 g per 1 m². Apply enough water to carry the mycorrhizal to the root zone.
Mycorrhizal Seed Inoculant: 1.5 - 2 kg per hectare. Can be applied as a seed coat or dry powder. To coat seed dampen seed with a fine mist of water while mixing in the powder. Apply no more than 3 litres of solution per tonne of seed for large size seed (grain legumes, cereals) and up to 1 L per 100 kg for small seed (clover, lucerne, ryegrass). Do not wet the seed so it sticks together.

This may sound like an odd one as this thread is located in Soil Grows however can this product also be used in Coco Fibre/Husk. I am using the pre washed stuff that comes already mixed by the supplier, looks a hell of a lot like soil and feels the same but would it be able to store the powder or would it just wash away..? Also what application would you say suits the above best or how did you incorporate it as I am thinking of using in my next run.

As for the baby's only 2 out of the five rooted, The largest one with the most bud left on it & the most leaf or green mass to help with rooting. They have both rooted well as you will see but they seem to be finishing to flower as they pistils are turning brown & drying up. Now that they have rooted is it safe to remove the lower bud sites & also will they just begin to re-veg on their own or should I help them on their way by pruning. They are 10 days old & have been rooting for 3 or 4 days. I have only changed the res once in those 10 days (my bad) and have just mixed up a fresh mix, this time adding A+B nutrients the EC is around 1.2 - this may have contributed for them looking sick.

I just aren't sure where the new growth will come from as it appears they are still in flower mode even though I have been running them 24/0, when & where would I expect to see the new single leaves shoot out as in the first page..? Please any suggestions would be appreciated.

Just to let you know I have not decided to pluck any more leaves as your right they have grown back in numbers therefore the plant must require them. I am still rather skeptical that they need all of them but I have noticed the buds have filled out a hell of a lot more since I have not plucked them & removed about a garbage bag full of growth from under the screen.
However now that I am not removing the Fans one issue that has arisen is running cool tubes they allow the light to be very close to the top colas. This has caused a distinct yellowing of the fans nearest the bulbs and the top of the bud is just all white the same color as the pistils. I have tried to move the lights & cant go any higher, I will spread the buds a bit but am limited to the screen hole size so they will still be in direct light.

Again may be a stupid question but do you think that is ok & will it hurt the plant...? I am having some rust spotting on leaves which I will look into as it seems an Iron deficiency or some sort of micro-nutrient issue.

Also lastly just as you mentioned to slowly switch from 20/4 back to 12/12, do you lower the length of day light towards the end of flowering to finish on 9/15...? Also would it be beneficial to back off from 600w & turn the lights down to 75% or 450W each.

I know there is another thread on this matter so sorry if I am crashing here I will post on that thread too but just wanted your opinion.

P.S. I understand now how you choose selective breeding & how it is implemented. It def would go a long way into creating killer strains which are strong, disease resistant, healthy & grow like crazy. Even though I started from clones each of them seemed to have responded differently to the training I gave them over time & definitely some plants are more vigorous than others. I only took the flowering clones from the bigger healthier plants therefore I am hoping that they will be the same as their predecessor & give me some nice Big Colas all over next time round.

Overall some great info & thanks a heap for the lessons learnt.

Hope to hear back soon, meanwhile here's some pics....!!

 

[Kodiak]

Usually, you add some of the powder to the soil and it then grows. In a soil-less mix that might be more difficult, because the spores would probably just wash away, like you guessed. I'm really not sure how you would go about it. Perhaps you would have to pre-grow the mycorrhiza in the soil-less mix first and then add the plants. I only grow in soil, so you might have to ask someone else.

I would leave the revegged plants alone. They will probably grow new shoots, after which you can remove the old ones, because they probably won't grow at the same rate. I would wait until there are lots of new shoots, before I would remove any of the old growth. They might take a turn for the worse if you mess with them now. Feed the plants growth hormones (kelp extract), if you want to speed that up a bit.

When you leave the leaves alone, the plant can focus on other things, namely growing bud. It will continute to redistribute the energy to where it is needed. Some leaves will go yellow and wither on their own. The plant will reach an energy equilibrium, where the energy produced is close to how much is spent. Upkeep comes first and any surplus energy will either be stored for later use, or spent on expansion. Think of it as a constantly evolving power plant, with living solar panels, linked up with a production line. The produce is bud and it will continue the production as long as there is energy for it as the proper raw materials are being supplied. Leave the plants alone and they will adjust themselves. That's what they do. Nature knows best. I have found that the less you mess with the plants, the better they do. So don't worry. Any plant that can't take it, wasen't really worth keeping to begin with. Look for strong individuals with the greatest ability to adapt to harsh conditions.

Remove growth that is using up more energy than it's worth, namely lower branches that stretch too much and popcorn buds that never put out much weight. Plants like to have "backup" growth, in case the whole top part of the plant is eaten or crushed or something. It's only interested in passing on it's genes, even if the seeds are located on the lower branches. Remaining unfertilized constitutes a problem for the female plant, so she puts out more bud, in hope that it will solve the problem. Push the production towards the top of the plant, to the well lit area of the grow room. That will allow the top colas to gain more weight and grow in size. When you reduce the number of locations or nodes that need energy, more energy becomes available to the remaining shoots, and a result, they grow larger.

The light is burning your plants and the growth is dying out from dessication and heat. You probably have to train the plants by tying down the colas. Try opening up the plant like an umbrella. That will shorten it a bit. If they are just a little bit too tall, you can get away with less. Try to get those shoots away from the light and the heat that it puts out. You can't save dead shoots, so you might as well remove them. Training the plant will not hurt them because they will recover, even from 90 degree bends on the stems. They repair the cellulose network in the stems very quickly and continue where they left off.

You should take some pics when the lights are off. It's difficult to tell how the plants are doing when the color is all saturated in yellow. The flowering plants look pretty good from here though. You can also try the "tungsten" setting on your camera when the lights are on. That will give you slightly bluish pics but they are still better than the yellow ones. The HPS just kills the entire color scale. I've tried saving yellow pics in photoshop but it's impossible, because there's nothing to work with.

If your plant is showing spots on the leaves, you have to pinpoint the problem and take care of it. The plants will be fine. I have seen plants go from near-dead to glorious trees, so as long as you fix what's wrong, there's little to worry about. It's a very resilient plant and a weed after all. It grows nearly as fast as bamboo.

I would not change the light schedule until the plants are done revegging. You want them to fully revert back to veg, for another cycle. Treat them as you would regular clones. Cut back on the flowering nutes, feed them vegging nutes and keep the lights on for 24/0 or 20/4. Both will work. 4 hours of rest will probably do them some good, they don't really need much more than that. You can go from 20/4 to 18/6 to 12/12 and lower it to 11/13 toward the end of flowering, but I would not go much lower than that in any case. Shorten the days gradually, to reduce the stretch. That will also allow the plants to prepare for flowering in good time. There a chemical and hormonal change that occurs in the plant when it goes from veg to flower and that takes some time.

Yeah, clones can respond differently because they are separate individuals, after all. Although their DNA is identical, they might express it in slightly different ways. Their genes might allow for slightly different "solutions" or "approaches" to any gives problem. Not all of the genetic information is being applied in every environment. They are acting on their own accord and trying their best to survive. Still, they will probably look pretty much the same because they are getting the same treatment but put that plant outdoors, and you might spot some differences.

 

[mattkilla420]

Kodiak my friend excellent info. Read ur thread and had to super crop one of my super silver haze plants BC it was growing thru the roof. here she is. Compared to my other three plants I think this ones gonna put out 3x as much as others. The growth that sprouted from just bending stem is impressive. I think u called it apical growth or something. Its very evident that lst and high stress training make bigger plants. Thanks again Kodiak ur one smart mofo View attachment 167465 View attachment 167466

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[AcesBasis]

Hi Again Kodiak

Hi Again Kodiak

Hi Kodiak,
Just thought I'd clarify a few points & post some new pics with HPS lights off. I did notice that it was hard to see the yellowing I described (looked almost b&w) so here goes again. I did some reading last night & think I have identified the rust spots on the leaves to be a cal def..? I am not sure about the yellowing tips & if that is normal due to flowering & low N, I will try to spread them like an umbrella as u mentioned that way they aren't so close to the light. I am not so sure that it is an excessive heat problem (although it prob contributes a bit) I truly believe that it is just the plant adjusting & growing whiter because it was directly under the globe & the most intense part of the light, as other tops next to them are similar in height but not as white. Take a look & see what u think now it is clearer in the new pics but the shoots dont appear dead. Just to be on the safe side I have lowered the ballasts to 75% power to reduce heat & will see how they respond over a few days.

Now that I can see the mistakes made earlier in this grow & not fully applying your technique during veg or at least early enough, I cant wait to have another crack at it & start the process again and install the screen a lot lower thus training will begin earlier..

Just hope the rooted clones start producing new growth above the lid & not only roots, I have added both root hormone & sea kelp to help as well & will keep the light on for 24hr for the rest of the week then go down to 20/4. How long do u think it should it take for them to start growing new shoots...?

I removed the lower growth approx a week ago & it has really helped to bulk up the tops, I already have foot+ long colas tightly packed all the way above the screen & still have 3 to 5 weeks left depending on the strain as again I am flying blind, just started to see the first fox tail 2nite.

I would not change the light schedule until the plants are done revegging. You want them to fully revert back to veg, for another cycle. Treat them as you would regular clones. Cut back on the flowering nutes, feed them vegging nutes and keep the lights on for 24/0 or 20/4. Both will work. 4 hours of rest will probably do them some good, they don't really need much more than that.

I think u misunderstood me I meant the flowering plants a.t.m, there is some evidence that suggests light hours should be reduced over the flowering cycle just as it happens in nature where the days get progressively shorter as winter approaches. Something to do with the amount of light the plant needs per day or DLI & in a way the plant senses that the days are getting shorter & promotes more growth/ripening rather than being blasted by too much light in its last days.

More info can be found here:http://theweedscene.com/flowering-light-cycle/ and also https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=219764

Happy Reading,
Anyhow hope you can help a NB out - happy times....

 

[Kodiak]

Thanks for the good vibes mattkilla420. Nice job on the super cropping You have managed to make the plant more compact, thereby reducing the node spacing and the buds are filling in nicely.


Hi Aces. Sure, no problem, I'll help you out if I can. You seem to be doing pretty good so far. I'm not really all that good at determining nutrient deficiencies, so you might want to start a thread in the infirmary, if you're worried. There are some good experts there that can tell you exactly what's going on. Not every leaf will be perfect throughout the grow. Some yellowing is natural. You might want to give the plants a little bit more nitrogen, because they look like they could use it. The leaves still need the N to stay healthy, even in flowering. You want that really deep green color in the leaves (although some plants have a lighter green color in the leaves than others, while others turn almost black). That means that they are well fed and that there's lots of chlorophyll in the leaves. Keeping the leaves healthy will also ensure that the bud is doing ok. It won't hurt as long as you don't give them too much and keep the flowering nutrient ratio higher.

Yeah, the cool tube can sometimes create hot spots because it works like a magnifying glass, thereby burning some plants. That's why an air-cooled hood is better. It all depends on the temps at the canopy and how well the bulb is cooled down. The tops are fairly close, so they might be suffering from a little bit of heat stress. Then again, if the white hairs are all intact, it's probably not a problem.

You can still train those plants some more if you want. I would recommend LSTing in that case. Just bend down the tops and tie them down. They will turn back towards the lights in no time. It might feel wierd at first but it does zero harm to the plants. They adjust themselves and continue where they left off. It's better than burning the tops and then you can run the the ballast at full strength again. You would only be changing the shape of the plant, that's all. I know that they look nice and neat now but you could actually help them by bending them down, if they really are suffering from too much heat. Nowadays, I never hesitate to train the plants in flowering if that's what has to be done. Sometimes it helps to increase the harvest a bit.

Yeah, practise makes perfect. You learn something from every grow. Some of that knowledge comes from making mistakes. Everybody makes them. You can be told a lot of things but you need to see some things in order to really understand them. It's an ongoing learning process. I still learn new stuff because I also experiment a lot with the plants.

It's difficult to say how long it will take for the clones to reveg. Some revert faster than others and some never do. The rooting and growth hormones will help.

Those buds will get really fat by the end of flowering. Like 2-3 timer fatter than now. Nice looking buds too and they are filling in nicely, like you pointed out. Looks like a mostly sativa plant to me, judging by the leaves and the foxtailing that you mentioned. Might be some indica in there too, due to the bud structure. Nice job on keeping the nodes close to each other. That's what you want. Big, fat buds that link up and completely cover the stems.

Yeah, ok. I see what you mean. I never strayed too far from 12/12 because I didn't really find a need for it. I usually just lower it to 11/13 during the last two weeks. I sometimes go for 10/14 for the last week but I honestly don't think that it makes that much of a difference between the two. You'll get enough bud anyway. Once the plants have begun flowering, nothing will stop them. They will complete the cycle under 12/12, 11/13 or anything close to that. Shortening the days a bit towards the end might help to wrap things up, pushing more energy towards the buds. The phytochromes (photosensitive pigments) in the leaves keep track of the daylength, so there might be something to shortening the schedule towards the end of flowering. The plants will start using up the energy is the leaves at this time, sacrificing what's left for the fruit. Perhaps it has more impact on the scent and taste of the bud, making it even sweeter. I wouldn't go much lower than 10/14 though. I don't think that it will make a huge difference but you are welcome to try it if you want.

Some of the THC will always be in acid form (THCA) on newly harvested plants because the buds form at different times and grow at different rates. That's why you have to cure the buds for a while, in order for the remaining THCA to decarboxylate into real THC. Some of the THC also degrades into CBN over time, so you have to keep the jars in a cool and dark place, inside an air-tight container because those things speed up the degradation process. You want to minimize that, while turning the remaining THCA into THC. When all the trichomes go from clear to cloudy, the plant is at the peak of THC production and conversion. Harvesting at this time will make sure that a large portion of the THCA is actually THC. Amber trichomes are already degrading.

Some plants just keep on flowering. You could basically harvest the buds and keep flowering the plants if it also grows new shoots during flowering. The harvest window for sativas can vary a lot, even for the same plant if they behave in this manner. I had a mostly sativa plant that I harvested anywhere between 12-18 weeks. She just kept on getting fatter and grew new shoots when the old ones were done. Monster plant really. Got so huge that I almost couldn't fit it inside the grow room.

By the way, there's something funny about the bud in the last pic. Looks like it might be a hermie to me. I could also be wrong and it's just yellow bud leaf but I thought it would be worth mentioning. The bud is a bit out of focus in the pic, so it's difficult to tell for sure. If it's just single-bladed bud leaf, then there's nothing to worry about.

 

[dr-stevo]

Hey Kodiak, do you have your own 'recipe' (combination of training techniques) that provides the optimum yield for you e.g. top first, then FIM and then supercrop, switch to flower and Scrog? All methods seem to have benefits so I wondering is there a good combination that works well together?

 

[Kodiak]

I usually top/FIM the plant once and then continue with LSTing them, until they have reached the shape that I'm going for. I sometimes top them a second time but once is usually enough when you team it up with LSTing. I don't usually super crop the plants but sometimes it's the best thing to do. I always use a scrog, just for extra support and control.

The longer the space between the nodes, the more LSTing you have to do. The idea is to create a very compact plant, with nodes that are spaced very closely to each other. You also want lots of nodes, as that means more bud. I just keep the plants in veg for as long as I have to and continue training them, until they seem to be able to support a lot of bud.

Sometimes I tie down the branches and then release them later one when the plant has grown. I then select new (and some of the old) branches and tie them down again, adjusting the shape of the plant so that it leaves no unused space. I try to create a shape that makes the most use of the space that is available to the plant, sort of filling out all the gaps with more shoots.

I then put the scrog into place when they grow taller. I usually place it above the canopy, so that the plants stretch through it during the first weeks of 12/12. That leaves me with lots of top shoots above the scrog. What I get is this "sea" or "table" of bud that is resting on the scrog. I then slowly start to remove growth underneath the scrog, that become energy sinks, in order to push the energy towards the tops.

 

[AcesBasis]

Hi Kodiak & Co,

You can still train those plants some more if you want. I would recommend LSTing in that case. Just bend down the tops and tie them down. They will turn back towards the lights in no time. It might feel wierd at first but it does zero harm to the plants. They adjust themselves and continue where they left off. It's better than burning the tops and then you can run the the ballast at full strength again. You would only be changing the shape of the plant, that's all. I know that they look nice and neat now but you could actually help them by bending them down, if they really are suffering from too much heat. Nowadays, I never hesitate to train the plants in flowering if that's what has to be done. Sometimes it helps to increase the harvest a bit.

 

[AcesBasis]

Hi There, Back Again...

Hi There, Back Again...

Hi Kodiak & Co,

You can still train those plants some more if you want. I would recommend LSTing in that case. Just bend down the tops and tie them down. They will turn back towards the lights in no time. It might feel wierd at first but it does zero harm to the plants. They adjust themselves and continue where they left off. It's better than burning the tops and then you can run the the ballast at full strength again. You would only be changing the shape of the plant, that's all. I know that they look nice and neat now but you could actually help them by bending them down, if they really are suffering from too much heat. Nowadays, I never hesitate to train the plants in flowering if that's what has to be done. Sometimes it helps to increase the harvest a bit.

I did this over the process of two nights, I just cut some of the screen wire opening up a new section to move the stem into & trying down. It has helped to expose more of the length of the bud to see the light so you are hopefully right & shld help my harvest a little.

You seem to be doing pretty good so far. I'm not really all that good at determining nutrient deficiencies, so you might want to start a thread in the infirmary, if you're worried.

Thanks for the praises Kodiak, Like I said before I did apply some of your training methods & now know what works best for round 2. I posted a reply to a thread in the infirmary but no replies yet. I think it may have to do with the fact I stopped the Amino Treatment (silica) this week & the res mix was also lowered to 1.8 - 1.9EC with the dry KB added. This increase of P & K from the KB & less A&B nutes may have to do with it & it also could be that it is getting colder the last week & the temp of my Res is lower bout 17deg. Come to think of it I have not flushed my pots for about 4 weeks as I started running drip clean to help with salt build up perhaps they just need a good flushing. The only thing that is strange it has affected one plant worse than the others so I hope to get a reply soon otherwise I'll start a thread.

I usually top/FIM the plant once and then continue with LSTing them, until they have reached the shape that I'm going for. I sometimes top them a second time but once is usually enough when you team it up with LSTing. I don't usually super crop the plants but sometimes it's the best thing to do. I always use a scrog, just for extra support and control.

Good advice there, I did this to one of my plants & it thanked me for it. I probably didn't do enough LSTing early so that's why they got so tall however if I had of applied it as per above I think it would have been a more even spread canopy. I would say FIM is worth it if you can get it right & make sure you don't perform it too close to switching to flower as it can take some time for the plants to bounce back. Some of the main branches I tried it to didn't have enough time to recover before the stretch & resulted in multiple colas but all too small & lower than the main tops which were left alone. Also I wouldn't do it to the side branches past the sweet spot of the light as they too really don't get fat enough & it is better to leave them as single colas on a fatter stem & super crop at the right time but minus the bending over, Super cropping will stop vertical growth & helps to keep the node spacing tighter. Make sure the stem is supported & if you go too far & she cant support herself I strapped a band-aid around the wound to help hold it up.

I don't usually super crop the plants but sometimes it's the best thing to do. I always use a scrog, just for extra support and control.

I can vouch for that as some of my largest colas (which if your right should be monsters by the end) were supper cropped about the same time as I did the last FIM 1-1.5 week prior to switch but unlike the stunted FIM they seemed to love it & by the end of the stretch had turned into the thickest & best looking colas in my tent to prove your training really works some are not even the main branch they are side branches that took on Apical dominance thanks to LST, See pics.

It's difficult to say how long it will take for the clones to reveg. Some revert faster than others and some never do. The rooting and growth hormones will help.

I have thrown out all but one of the 3 clones that rooted. The other two were not going to make it so they got culled. Took another few cutting last night & see if these will respond better. The sole survivor is still Healthy & have a lot of roots now but still no re-veg. I am thinking it may be a lost case too but we will soon see.

Looks like a mostly sativa plant to me, judging by the leaves and the foxtailing that you mentioned. Might be some indica in there too, due to the bud structure.

That figures because when I got the clones & was asked quality or quantity I answered both thanks...!! His reply was " Ahh yeah, I know exactly what your looking for mate leave it to me.." SO it figures. How do you tell if they can be left to flower again (the new shoots you mentioned)?

By the way, there's something funny about the bud in the last pic. Looks like it might be a hermie to me. I could also be wrong and it's just yellow bud leaf but I thought it would be worth mentioning. The bud is a bit out of focus in the pic, so it's difficult to tell for sure. If it's just single-bladed bud leaf, then there's nothing to worry about.

Had a look & all plants seem like healthy flowering females for the most part. I cant really see any sacks or balls forming in the bud so hope they all mature well.

Anyhow I am looking forward to Harvest soon & really need one of these clones to re-veg asap so I can get a head start this time & hopefully transplant 2-3 week old clones, If that all fails i'll crack some seeds & pick a mother which I can house in my bubbler in closet (that I pimped my ride too I might add) see pics.

Bye for now folks.

p.s. do you have any journals or past pics so we can see your magic in action...? hope its ok to ask

Cheers & Have a Good Weekend Everybody...!

 

[Kodiak]

Hi Aces,

I have to keep it short this time, I hope that you don't mind. I'm a little bit pressed for time at the moment because I'm inbetween houses.

When the reveg takes properly, the plant will probably start growing new shoots like crazy. Sort of like a topped berry bush does the next year round. You just have to be patient. They might root but it still might take some time for them to revert back into veg. Some might get stuck inbetween forever. You never know.

You should wait longer until you harvest the plants. The buds will get fatter and more heavy. They could get twice as fat as they are now, if you give them time. Flowering times are just a rough guideline. I don't even count the weeks anymore because I can tell when they are ready. That also sort of takes the pressure off a bit, because you don't keep track of how much time has passed. I just let them keep going until they look like they are about to explode.

Be patient and you will be greatly rewarded.

I haven't had time to post any grow journals but here are a few assorted pics. Enjoy:

Nepalese Kush

Check out the trichomes on this one.. click to zoom..

Ruby Sky

Purple AK-47

Red Dragon

 

[Kodiak]

..and a few more.. Enjoy

 

[mattkilla420]

hey Hey kodiak i got a? Bro. Im doing some lst to my clones in solo cups. I plan on going with a bigger container in a week. How do i transplant the lst'd plants. Retie all tie downs or what. Couldnt realy figure it out i followef u and buddhas way of doing it so .. any help be great View attachment 171359

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[dr-stevo]

hey kodiak, about to do my first bit of training ever. never did any type before but going to experiment with topping, fimming and lst. do you think the seedling below is ready for any of these methods?

 

[Kodiak]

Hi mattkilla420,

I would start by cutting away the cups with some scissors. That's the easiest way to prevent root damage. Tip the plant on its side and cut away the plastic cup. You can also leave it standing upright and then cut downwards.

You can also wait until the soil is dry and then turn the plant upside down, while holding it so that the soil rests in the palm of your hand, with the stem running down between your fingers. The central/primary root is always in danger of getting severed close to the stem when you transplant, especially if you try to lift the plant out of the pot. That's why you have to flip them upside down and then carefully remove the pot from the roots, instead of doing things the other way around.

When transplanting larger plants, grab the stem close to the soil with a reversed grip (thumb down) and then tip the plant on its head, so that the soil is resting on the top of your hand (thumb and index finger), thereby supporting both the stem and the roots. Use your other hand to support the pot. Then carefully remove the pot by lifting it upwards, away from the plant. The pot is easier to remove from the roots if you squeeze it from all sides.

Never transplant when the soil is wet because it might break apart and tear up the lateral roots.

In this case, use the scissors to cut away the cup. Don't worry about the lateral roots, you won't cause much damage to them while cutting away the cup.

Then scratch at the roots a little bit with your fingers, both on the sides and at the bottom. That will encourage more root growth. This step is important if you want the roots to expand rapidly into the newly added soil.

Then repot and continue LSTing. You will have to re-tie some of the old shoots but also look for new ones. You might want to release the shoots some weeks later, depending on how the plant takes shape. By alternating the position of the dominant shoots, you also make sure that you get an even canopy, with several dominant shoots. You might have to repeat this step several times during flowering. When the dominant shoots are tied down, the secondary shoots will elongate. Some will grow quite long, so tie down, then release and re-tie. You can try to make the most out of the space that is available to any single plant, by redirecting shoots into vacant areas. You can continue LSTing throughout the flowering stage, adjusting the shape of the plant as it grows.

The shots will turn back towards the light within 24 hours and LSTing causes very little stress to the plant.


Hi dr-stevo,

The seedling is too young for topping and LSTing right now. It might get stunted and dwarfed if you start now. Wait a couple more weeks, then top it when it has at least 3 pairs of true leaves. More is better. You might want to wait until it doubles in height. Keep in mind that when you top the central stem, the plant will no longer grow in that location. It's always better to be safe than sorry, so don't hurry with the decision. The vegetative stage can be extended pretty much as far as you like, by keeping the plant under a 24/0 or 20/4 light schedule. Sometimes you need more veg time and sometimes less, in order for the plant to reach the desired shape.

Then wait until you see secondary growth at the nodes on the lower branches. Then proceed with tying down the topmost (or dominant) shoots. That will allow the secondary and tertiary shoots to elongate. Then continue working from there by tying down and releasing shoots where needed.

These pictures might help to illustrate the process:

 

[dr-stevo]

Thanks Kodiak you are a true gentleman.

It seems to be common practice to top first and then LST the same plant later on. Would you recommend this instead of doing one or the other?

 

[mattkilla420]

Yea thanks bro, i will be xplanting tonight. Great info

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