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A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
If your plant doesn't look like an indica or a sativa, I'm sure that it's something inbetween. MK-Ultra is OG Kush x G13 and people say that it's mostly indica in expression but I'm sure that there are some sativa phenos of it as well. I think that they used the Mr. Nice G13Skunk for that cross (G13 is a clone only plant so there are no true G13 males, only G13Skunk, G13Haze and G13Hashplant etc).

I'm not sure what you friend meant by what he said, perhaps what he was trying to tell you is that the plants will respond poorly to topping and training.

You can still try topping the plant. Perhaps you will have better luck. Some say that it works well for this strain. It all depends on what sort of plant you've got.

Some plants don't like to be topped but most plants will respond positively to LST'ing. It will work well on plants that tend to stretch a lot. Tall and lanky plants can be made quite compact with this technique.

You can also try super cropping because the plant might like it better if it responds poorly to topping. Super cropping produces the same result as topping and LST'ing combined.

Both metods will give you an even canopy and bushy plants as long as you give them enough time in veg.

Some people reported that this plant is perfect for SOG. Again, it mainly depends on the phenotype. Compact indicas with tight bud structure are well suited for SOG grows, stretchy "foxtailing" sativas not as much. Your plant might fall somewhere inbetween.

You can also go with monster cropping if you have enough plants. You don't have to top those plants because they will probably branch out on their own but they might need some training and scrogging for good results.

If you find it difficult to make up your mind, try several different techniques on different clones. You can also try combinations. That way you will know by the end of your next grow what really works and you will also have learned a ton of stuff about training plants.

It's all about unlocking the full potential of the plant. Some things work better than others. It's a game of trial and error.

You should perhaps ask your friend to give you more information about the plant before you make a decision.


Regarding the flowering clones, the hard part is getting them to root. If they remain healthy, they will probably revert back into veg sooner or later. When they have rooted properly, start feeding them vegging nutes. It might help. I cannot tell you which plant will be a good candidate for monster cropping because they are all different. The only way to know for sure is to try it out.
 

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
No problem. Try some LST'ing as well if you like to keep the plants compact and packed with bud sites. I usually start out by topping the plants. Then I wait about a week or two before I LST the longest shoots. I give it some more time and then LST again. Sometimes you need to release some of the branches that you tied down first and then tie down new ones. You might have to bend the longer branches and direct them back into the plant, so that they won't reach out past the pot and crowd their neighbours. Bending and crisscrossing the branches in this way will keep the plants in check, while still producing the desired results.

By bending and tying down the fastest branches, you give the rest of them a chance to catch up. This will eventually give you an even canopy. If you have more time and space to spare, you can top the plant several times with less LST'ing instead.

Good Luck
 

bigmike357

New member
totally awesome!

totally awesome!

people told me i could get really good advice here on icmag,but your info.goes well beyond anything i expected. if all the info. on here is this indept then i don't see how i can fail with a community like this at my disposal.i thank you for all the work and effort you put in this thread,it really makes me glad to be a member.:jump::jump::jump::jump:
 

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
Welcome, feel free to drop in if you have any questions.

In case you are interested, I also wrote a general growing guide. Check it out if you need more information.

Growing Good Weed

It covers a lot of things that I didn't mention here.
 

Xerhoss

Member
You might have to do some light LST'ing in flowering if the sativa-dom girls start getting out of control. LST'ing can be done at any time and I often LST in flowering as well as in veg.

Yep. Tis definitely the case! I topped the S-doms and within 2 weeks they are almost twice as tall as the others again - only this time with 4-5 tops in place of the single central stalk. :yoinks:

Aside from those few, the canopy is workably even. I'm going to put together a scrog area just for these and will be rearranging the flower room tomorrow as well. Currently i'm using a 5X4 area of the 4X8 room, running a single 1000 watt dual arc bulb, but they are starting to bush out nicely and showing some beautiful flowers. Time to spread em out again and get that second lamp (and the exhaust fan) going. :)

The plants recover in no time at all. The shoots and leaves will start turning back towards the light in less than 24 hours.

One thing about this plant that never ceases to amaze me is the speed with which they adapt and recover. I had a batch of clones that dried out on me after a couple days with a heat mat under them and they looked like gonners, but a little water and 24 hours later i was looking at 80% recovery. Within 2 days, 95%. I wound up losing only one out of a tray of nearly 50. Impressively hearty these girls are!
 

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
Sounds like you've got it covered. When it comes to stretchy plants, I usually crisscross the branches back and forth, allowing the secondary and tertiary shoots to elongate. You have to train each plant in a slightly different way. Sometimes less is more. You're good as long as the whole grow area is covered in bud, smaller or larger ones.

You can also release some of the branches that you tied down when the plants enter full bloom, especially if they look fat. Release, readjust, tie down again and so on. The scrog net will certainly help and also makes it easier to work with the buds. That 1K light should give you you big buds for sure.

Yeah, weed grows incredibly fast. I think that bamboo might be one of the few plants that have it beat in terms of speed. Giving up and dying is not an option for plants. I've seen plants with just a short piece of stalk and no leaves bounce back into full sized plants. Amazing stuff, like you said.
 
S

snowtiko

hi kodiak, i love your guide and it have helped me alot. just have a single question..
is it ever too late to top a plant in veg ? i just topped all of my plants and they have grown to about 45 cm when i topped them..

thanks :)
 

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
You can top the plants fairly close to flowering time but there's really no need to push it. You're in charge, so you can always extend veg time a bit so that the plants have time to adjust. It's best to be flexible with the time table. Topping the plant causes a change in hormonal activity as the plant grows accustomed to its new shape. There is also a response to wounding, which temporarily puts the plant into defense mode, which slows down growth. Flowering also causes a major change in hormonal activity, so it might be best to keep the plants in veg for at least a week once they have been topped. No need to mix them up with two things at the same time. That will put pressure on the plants and some plants handle stress better than others. Some plants will recover quickly, while others get stunted.

Topping the plant means that you are removing something and you'll have to give the plant some time to replace that growth or you'll end up with less bud. It's all about compact structure. It's always good to have a plan before you begin the training. When you top the plant, the secondary shoots will always elongate and the stretch will increase if you put the plants into 12/12 right after topping them, which results in longer internodes and fewer buds.

You can consider LST'ing (or super cropping) the plant instead of topping it a second time if it's close to flowering time. Tie down the branches and open up the plant so that more light reaches the lower branches. The stretch during flowering can also be negated by Low Stress Training and unlike topping, it can be done throughout flowering without adverse effects. LST'ing can slow down flowering a bit but as soon as you leave the plants alone, they will start budding rapidly, especially if you release the branches that were tied down. You can sort of coax the plant into growing fat buds this way. You temporarily tie down the strongest shoots and then release them a few weeks into flowering. That will give them a real boost. Tying down the main shoot(s) will encourage secondary growth, which also increases the yield somewhat.

In short, topping the plant should be done early on so that the plant can branch out and gain weight during veg. LST'ing on the other hand can be done at any time because it does not put pressure on the plant.

People always seem concerned about stressing out their plants too much because that can cause them to hermie. The truth is that any plant that shows sex reversal was a hermie to begin with and nothing can change that. It's genetic. In that sense it's good to stress out your plants because then the hermies will reveal themselves and you can remove them from the grow. Stable females that can handle a lot of stress are the keepers. Stress-testing is necessary in order to find stable females, so it's always part of my screening process when I look for suitable parents. Hermaphroditism is a trait that many dioecious plants have inherited from their monoecious ancestors, so it's always present to some degree. In that sense there are no true females, only individuals that are more or less prone to the dual-sex condition. The plants that remain healthy and stable under pressure and in hostile environments will always outperform weaker individuals. Survival of the fittest and all that.

Ultimately, what you need to consider is the shape of the plants. If the plants look nice and bushy with a large number of shoots, they are also ready for flowering. If the plants look like they could use a bit more time in veg, there's no need to put them into flowering just yet. The longer you veg the plants, the stronger they will be. Topping the plants numerous times also means that they will requires more time in veg. Short veg times are ok for clones but when you are growing plants from seed, you should also allow them to develop preflowers before you put them into 12/12. That usually takes some time so you might as well train the plant until you see the preflowers. Bushy plants with a lot of leaves will have more energy stored up for flowering. They will sacrifice that growth when the energy is needed for the buds. Leaves turn yellow and die when the plant draws energy from them. Some leaves can also become energy sinks, depending on how much light the plant receives. The large fan leaves and the top leaves should however be left alone in my opinion. Most of the time, the plant knows best and makes the most out of the energy that it has stored up. I usually wait until the leaves have lost all the green before I remove them.

There are lots of things that can affect the final yield. You need to take these things into consideration when you plan your grow. The more time you have to spare, the better. I got a bit sidetracked here but I hope that I managed to answer your question :)
 
S

snowtiko

WOW thank you ! you have definitely answered all of my worries :D
im smoking one for you :D
peace
 

growbie1

Member
:tiphat: Kodiak!
Hell of a job you did with this thread! Thx allot!

Got a short Question, too...

I'm running my first flower-clones right now
(about half of them can be called 100% reveged now)
and i was wondering if they're gone be growing as fast as normal clones? It's been some time since my last cloning, but i can remember that it took clones like half the time, to reach a suitable height comp. to seeds. Same with monstercropping?
 

JWP

Active member
:tiphat: Kodiak!
Hell of a job you did with this thread! Thx allot!

Got a short Question, too...

I'm running my first flower-clones right now
(about half of them can be called 100% reveged now)
and i was wondering if they're gone be growing as fast as normal clones? It's been some time since my last cloning, but i can remember that it took clones like half the time, to reach a suitable height comp. to seeds. Same with monstercropping?

They will grow much faster than a regular clone because you have so many new shoots(branches)!

I recomend tying them down and let light to the middle of the plant. You will get even more new shoots coming up. It happens fast! Soon they will be out of control and you may have to cut some branches off :wave:


Imagin this image from the LST section. It has 4 nodes when it is upright and then when the plant is tied down on its side you instantly have 8 tops.

Now imagine when you do it with a flowering clone. You instantly have 30, 40 even 50 tops! You could flower it right there and have 50 nice buds! You could put a scrog screen on and have 30+ awesome buds.

10 Branches with 3 internodes each = instant 30 tops! Flowering clones are awesome!!! ;)

For all the people who scrog its best to start your scrog with flowering clones. It fills the screen fast!

picture.php
 

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
What JWP said. He knows a lot about this stuff.

I never saw a plant that didn't benefit from some LST'ing and scrogging.

If you get a lot of tops, you might have to pick the strongest ones and remove the rest at some point. That will give the remaining shoots a real boost.
 

growbie1

Member
I'm curious if my clones look "normal"...
is it ok to post some pics for oppinions? I'm also curious at what spots the new sprouts are gone form.:dance013:
So far they still just look kind of f....ed up
Actually took the clones just for practice reason and testing the propag.bubbler and they have been given poor light so far....
If it's ok Im gone post the pics tomorrow cause i got to get the cam first
 

growbie1

Member
Didn't get the cam... so i had to use my real poor one....
Made only pics of the bigger ones though
Anyway i'm just wandering if the poor lighting is affecting the plants other then slow grow, so here we go
 

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Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
Yeah, your plants look good and healthy to me, especially the one in the third picture. Nice

Some light LST'ing and those plants will grow nice and thick.

You might want to give them a bit more light at this stage but I would stick with compact flouros for a while.

The big lights are probably too much for them to handle right now.

Good Work
 

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