5 ton water cooled ac unit

[Hookah79]

Anyone have any info on those units?supposedly it's an indoor unit using water to cool the temps.I know they're water guzzlers,but how do they stack up againt your traditional ac performance and power consumption ?.


EDIT:forgot to mention that the unit my buddy was inquiring about looks like an indoor water chilled condenser without any casing,that connects to an air handler in which ducting would be installed.

 

[gh0stm0de]

Anyone have any info on those units?supposedly it's an indoor unit using water to cool the temps.I know they're water guzzlers,but how do they stack up againt your traditional ac performance and power consumption ?.

Water cooled air handlers are much more efficient in terms of amp draw than similarly sizes ac units. Additionally, water is easier to cool than air.

Water guzzlers? Im not so sure about that, 5 ton is pretty big though.

 

[queequeg152]

a conventional condensing unit, when retrofitted with a water cooled condensing coil, is NOT significantly more efficient than an air cooled condensing unit.

i have gone over this a dozen or so times in that other "water cooled growers unite!" thread.

the price they charge for these units is outrageous, and the work done it minimal. its not worth it imo.
if you NEED a water cooled ac unit, just buy a water source or geothermal heat pump and down rate it for tap water temps.

 

[Hookah79]

Afaik queeq he's being charged around 7k parts and labor.The reason he's thinking this route is because he lives at a condo/townhouse and it has restrictions(legal medical grow).He doesn't want the condenser outside.

We've looked at different units trying to find a unit that's completely indoors and the closest we found was one of those self contained units that sits inside but has to get ducted outside ,but they all came in 3 phase which wont work in a residential area.

 

[queequeg152]

7 k sounds about right TBH.

a huge 5 ton coaxial coil will cost around 1000-1500 bucks alone. a brazed plate would be alot cheaper, but they have monstrous pressure drops typically so you need a much more agressive pump to run water through them.

has your friend looked at the "reverse cycle" chillers?( stupid name for a water cooled heat pump). or the geothermal heat pumps? like i said earlier, a geothermal heat pump is designed to run on like 65 degree water circulated through a massive loop buried like 9-15 feet deep... so when you hook one up to 70 degree water you WILL need to down rate the capacity alot... in other words a 5 ton geothermal might become a 4 ton, 4 ton might become a 3.5 ton etc... but it would do the same thing as what you are proposing, and it would be a few grand cheaper.

the reverse cycle chillers on the other hand, meerly supply chill water to remote fan coils. i believe you can get reverse cycle chillers that basically retrofit into systems replacing the existing evap coil with a heat exchanger and circulation pump. i believe you can also get a stand alone reverse cycle chiller that are air source as well as water source, but idk its been a while since i looked into this.

 

[Hookah79]

I think 7k sounds fair considering that it will not be conspicuous.The guy claims that it wont waste a lot of water which i find hard to believe ,because afaik 5 tons use at least 15-20 gpm. Now maybe he's using something different i am not really sure i didnt talk to the guy.He's also running a 10 guage to the condensor which again i think its slightly smaller for a 5 ton.

 

[gh0stm0de]

Can you support that claim with data on amp draw or are you just looking at front end cost?

I can run a 1 ton chiller to cool 4 lights and nutrients at 8-9 amps, whereas similarly sized portable or mini split ac draw 13 amps and up.

Am i missing something? Also easier to insulate and keep water cool than it is air.

 

[queequeg152]

I think 7k sounds fair considering that it will not be conspicuous.The guy claims that it wont waste a lot of water which i find hard to believe ,because afaik 5 tons use at least 15-20 gpm. Now maybe he's using something different i am not really sure i didnt talk to the guy.He's also running a 10 guage to the condensor which again i think its slightly smaller for a 5 ton.

the rule of thumb is (i think), 1-2 gpm per ton of cooling, but it depends on the temp of the water.

if you have a geothermal loop putting out 65f water, you can probably spec a pump lower in that range, but tap water will be like 70+ so its going to be higher up in that range.

basically its going to be like running a hose full blast when the unit is running.

water in most places is cheap enough though, so its probably going to be like 100 bucks a month extra id guess.

i would be most worried about the water line sizing in this condo.

its likely the dude has a single 3/4" or 1/2" cold water line. if he decides to tap into say... a 1/2", or 3/8" copper pipe drop feeding a sink or somethign like that, you might run into an issue where you have more noise from higher velocities in that pipe.

you might also run into issues where you loose shower water pressure when this thing is running.

tell your dude that he probably should tap into the supply pipe feeding his place rather than a smaller diameter drop servicing his bathroom or kitchen or what ever.

10awg sounds about right for a 5 ton unit w/o electric heat.

i think 5 ton compressors normally run around 15-20 amps at 240v... add about 200-300w for a 1/3 or 1/4hp condensing fan( yes this unit will not have a fan).

 

[Hookah79]

the rule of thumb is (i think), 1-2 gpm per ton of cooling, but it depends on the temp of the water.

if you have a geothermal loop putting out 65f water, you can probably spec a pump lower in that range, but tap water will be like 70+ so its going to be higher up in that range.

basically its going to be like running a hose full blast when the unit is running.

water in most places is cheap enough though, so its probably going to be like 100 bucks a month extra id guess.

i would be most worried about the water line sizing in this condo.

its likely the dude has a single 3/4" or 1/2" cold water line. if he decides to tap into say... a 1/2", or 3/8" copper pipe drop feeding a sink or somethign like that, you might run into an issue where you have more noise from higher velocities in that pipe.

you might also run into issues where you loose shower water pressure when this thing is running.

tell your dude that he probably should tap into the supply pipe feeding his place rather than a smaller diameter drop servicing his bathroom or kitchen or what ever.

10awg sounds about right for a 5 ton unit w/o electric heat.

i think 5 ton compressors normally run around 15-20 amps at 240v... add about 200-300w for a 1/3 or 1/4hp condensing fan( yes this unit will not have a fan).

Good info man,on point.

 

[queequeg152]

Can you support that claim with data on amp draw or are you just looking at front end cost?

I can run a 1 ton chiller to cool 4 lights and nutrients at 8-9 amps, whereas similarly sized portable or mini split ac draw 13 amps and up.

Am i missing something? Also easier to insulate and keep water cool than it is air.

8-9 amps is not that impressive for 1 ton of cooling.

you can get very cheap and rudimentary split condensing units at 1.5 tons that run at or around 9 amps on the compressor.

the condensing fan and and blower will consume a few more amps, but typically account for only 10-20% of the overall system energy consumption.

again when you just take a standard condensing unit or window unit... and ram in a water cooled condensing coil, you really only stand to gain efficiency from the reduction in energy necessary to move the cooling medium. so instead of a 1/4hp condensing unit fan you use a smaller 1/8 or 1/10hp circulation pump. this only accounts for a small fraction of the overall ampacity though.

the reason why massive chiller plants can hit a cop = 5, has more to do with very sophisticated equipment than it has to do with the water itself.

scroll compressors are very good and pretty fucking efficient... but compared to a massive 100 ton centrifugal compressor, they are relatively inefficient.

 

[Hookah79]

Can you support that claim with data on amp draw or are you just looking at front end cost?

I can run a 1 ton chiller to cool 4 lights and nutrients at 8-9 amps, whereas similarly sized portable or mini split ac draw 13 amps and up.

Am i missing something? Also easier to insulate and keep water cool than it is air.

We were just comparing different 5 ton chillers ,and all of the ones that provided their data ran about 35 amps give or take.But those were the ones that came with built in fans and what not.I still can't find a 5 ton open style condensor online though.

 

[queequeg152]

what do you mean by "open style"?

its probably a regular condensing unit with the shell removed? if this is NOT the case, then i suppose it could actually be a custom built system... and for 7 grand it would be an amazing deal assuming its properly built and engineered.

if it IS a regular condensing unit with the shell removed... removing the shell is probably just to save space. the shell is just there to cover up the condensing coil which can be like 4 feet tall in some models.

if you can, id tell your guy to keep the condensing coil, shell, fan motor, fan blade, and origional electronics if he can... if he ever quits using the unit, it always could be converted back to a regular ac unit if everything is stored properly.... then again those condensing coils sell for like 500+ bucks new, so it could also just be sold off.

id be very curious to see pictures of this thing if you could post them?

 

[Hookah79]

what do you mean by "open style"?

its probably a regular condensing unit with the shell removed? if this is NOT the case, then i suppose it could actually be a custom built system... and for 7 grand it would be an amazing deal assuming its properly built and engineered.

if it IS a regular condensing unit with the shell removed... removing the shell is probably just to save space. the shell is just there to cover up the condensing coil which can be like 4 feet tall in some models.

if you can, id tell your guy to keep the condensing coil, shell, fan motor, fan blade, and origional electronics if he can... if he ever quits using the unit, it always could be converted back to a regular ac unit if everything is stored properly.... then again those condensing coils sell for like 500+ bucks new, so it could also just be sold off.

id be very curious to see pictures of this thing if you could post them?

Afaik it is custom made. I don't have any pictures on me,but from what my buddy said it's an exposed unit with 2 compressors or what not .One is slightly taller than the other.I am not even sure if they're both compressors tbh.The unit is around 400lbs give or take.

 

[queequeg152]

400 fucking pounds? hmmmm... is that an estimate based on the size of it?

400 lbs is about what a good sized package unit weighs.

a normal split condensing unit should be around 300lbs, and without the fan motor, condensing coil and the steel shell it should be like 50 lbs less.

regarding the 2 compressors... this is unlikely. its probably 1 compressor and 1 massive suction accumulator.

the suction accumulator is usually RIGHT next to the compressor, with 1 big u shaped copper pipe feeding into the compressor suction. then there is sometimes a muffler on the discharge size that can be fairly big, but im going to assume hes looking at the suction accumulator because those can be nearly as large as the compressor shell itself.

id be very impressed if this thing was a 1 off custom job... its not super easy to build these things, you need a pretty good detailed knowledge of the control schemes and line sizes and oil return velocities etc.

can you maby get a pic when its installed?

 

[Hookah79]

400 fucking pounds? hmmmm... is that an estimate based on the size of it?

400 lbs is about what a good sized package unit weighs.

a normal split condensing unit should be around 300lbs, and without the fan motor, condensing coil and the steel shell it should be like 50 lbs less.

regarding the 2 compressors... this is unlikely. its probably 1 compressor and 1 massive suction accumulator.

the suction accumulator is usually RIGHT next to the compressor, with 1 big u shaped copper pipe feeding into the compressor suction. then there is sometimes a muffler on the discharge size that can be fairly big, but im going to assume hes looking at the suction accumulator because those can be nearly as large as the compressor shell itself.

id be very impressed if this thing was a 1 off custom job... its not super easy to build these things, you need a pretty good detailed knowledge of the control schemes and line sizes and oil return velocities etc.

can you maby get a pic when its installed?

You might be right maybe less than 400???Dude said he needed 3 guys to load and unload.