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4,000w Perpeptual Ebb&Grow room, need help/advice!

M

Merfolk

Member
Hey Icmag, about ready to start setting up a new room in about One month, and looking to get all my ducks in a row before i dive in head first, ive only had 2 Harvests under my belt, one being soil, and the other being ebb and flow with 4 plants -

Im switching to a house with bigger space and i come to you icmag to get some insight!

First off,
Basement -
Light
4x 1000w with cooltubes (small reflector)
Hydroton Medium
Lucas Formula
Id like to use 8" Ducting/venting throughout the whole room to control temps and allow maximum air flow.

I have a option to vent out the roof during summer or possibly a window

During the winter id like to use the heat for my bedrooms -

Anyways, i want to make the controller like this, as blind date suggested this design

62574easy_multiflow.jpg



Sorry for the big pic, i couldnt resize it!

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Run 1/2" Lines to 8 buckers, 4 per line

The plan is to keep this room on 12/12 hour schedule and Veg in a ebb n flow table for 2 weeks then transfer in a set of clones every month to harvest once per month -

Im running in blind here, and most likley missing some things i need to add, but i really would like as much input and suggestions as possible before dropping the $$

My Questions are - -

1. If i wanted to add more buckets, can my lights support much more then 8 plants?

2. When Growing in this design am i aiming for just big top cola's? During the growth am i chopping under brancing to force the energy to the top of the buds? Sort of a lolli pop effect?

3. At the end of my line of buckets, are people just caping the end of tubing ?

Eventually id like to have 12 plants per system - so building it the first time would be ideal, should i upgrade to 3/4" main lines?

Filtering
I already have a 6in Vortex and Can Carbon filter - i was thinking of just adding that itself in the room with no ducting, as buying a new 8" big dog can filter along with one or two 8" Vortex and keep the whole room on the same ducting

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Anyone have any advice how to place my lamps according to the plants?
 

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M

Merfolk

Member
As far as the Veg room, would have 2 mothers provide 20 clones per month, Veg them under a 400 watt or T-5's ( and recommendation? 400w is HPS ) and have a 3x3 ebb and flow tables to establish a root system ( 2 weeks ) for the flower room -

Anyone see any flaws please point them out!
 
E

EvilTwin

Merfolk,
How are you going to fill up all the pots that are attached to the controller bucket using a timer? With a float controlled unit, as the water flows out to the buckets...the fill pump comes on easily a dozen times. Maybe if you use 1" pipes going to the bucket, but if you're using 1/2" you're talking about an instant flood or very shallow fills. Or so it seems to me.
ET
 
A

Apollo11

Member
EvilTwin said:
Merfolk,
How are you going to fill up all the pots that are attached to the controller bucket using a timer? With a float controlled unit, as the water flows out to the buckets...the fill pump comes on easily a dozen times. Maybe if you use 1" pipes going to the bucket, but if you're using 1/2" you're talking about an instant flood or very shallow fills. Or so it seems to me.
ET
Click to expand...

There is a nice post in the TIPS&TRICKS thread that I suggested you have a look at that explains how this system works.

The pump is not controlled by anything except the timer attached to it, there is no way its going to switch on and off like a relay system. It is in fact designed to run longer than necessary to fill these buckets and the excess water just drains back to the rez.
 
M

Merfolk

Member
The Anti siphon will be places inside the top of the Res , to drain the water back into the rez when the float valve switch is off.
 
E

EvilTwin

Merfolk,
Yes, I know that it won't turn on and off. Just used that as an example of how a float controller worked. I was overlooking your float function. It does seem pretty simple. I got into a discussion with a guy on this system awhile back...don't recall his name. But he suggested an internal float controlled sump pump for the controller. He posted a link for it too. Did you see that while reading the TIPS and TRICKS thread? Have you bought your drain pump yet? I'll try to track down that link for you.

I use a T-5HO and a 400MH for veg. I always thought hps in veg caused stretchiness but recently I've heard otherwise. So either should do a good job vegging for you.

I have 1/2" lines on mine and wished I'd gone with 3/4"...your floods and drains would be faster.

One the last bucket in the line I use an elbow rather then a T and that's the termination...so no plug needed. Oh, and I was told that one way to speed up flood and drain times is to us as many seperate circuits as possible. Say you have 12 pots off one controller/res. Have three rows of 4 (with 3 return taps into the controller) instead of two rows of 6

No opinions yet on light placement. Just optimize according to the reflector dispersion.

Hope some of this is useful...
ET
 
M

Merfolk

Member
Very helpful yes! thanks blind - although im not sure what you are talking about a internal float valve? id love to read the link , ill go over that thread again...i did read it all, or so i thought =)



So, Does it seem like a pretty solid plan? Pretty fool proof right?

Ill use Tomato cages to put into the buckets and help support the buds, im hoping with the 2 week Veg time in the veg room will allow for good buds, aiming for ATLEAST 80 grams per bucket, and after i dial it in, learn how my strain works, would be nice to hit the 100 mark.
 
M

Merfolk

Member
EvilTwin, those pumps, i believe i know what those do, when they reach a certain hieght inside the bucket, the pumps come on correct?

How would that work with one controller bucket? Perhaps im not understanding those pumps, but im open to any suggestions! Elaborate please?


Edit: Bah, sorry, seems you threw me off track there for a moment, you are just recommending the controller pump that goes back into the res -

Ive seen pumps that turn themselves on when the water reaches a certain level, i thought this is what you where recommending, and it threw me off track for a second -
 
E

EvilTwin

M,
I think we're understanding each other. A sump pump is like the pump you would use in a wet basement. Once the level raises to a certain point, the pump kicks on to empty it. The boat bilge pump Blinddate linked to should work since it would have to be corrosion proof to deal with ocean water.

I'm still confused though about how the controller pump works in your system. The picture stated that the control pump must be a type that can run empty. Certainly that doesn't mean that the pump stays on all the time? What turns the controller pump on when the fill timer goes off? It still seems to me that the system is incomplete.

The 5 pole timer that Krypto uses in his controller plans would be perfect. When the timer shuts off the fill pump (after the flood cycle) then that would automatically turn on the controller drain pump. Elegant.

Blinddate was trying to convince me on your system and I wasn't understanding then nor am I understanding now. I know it's not essential to you that I understand...BUT if my concerns are valid, that could mean that you will have problems. I'd love to see a grow thread using your system.

Here's where the links are and our discussion was right around there...page 14

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99681&page=14

Peace,
ET
 
M

Merfolk

Member
2 timers, one timer is set to fill the buckets, ( lets say 15minuites ) At the end of the 15 minutes, Timer #1 Kicks off, #2 Kicks on and drains the buckets back into the res, so sensors, just good timing -

Questing about the sump pump, from the ones im being linked, it pumps water out at 3/4" inches or so, so im not sure how that would work because i need the whole controller bucket to fill right?

EvilTwin said:
M,
I think we're understanding each other. A sump pump is like the pump you would use in a wet basement. Once the level raises to a certain point, the pump kicks on to empty it. The boat bilge pump Blinddate linked to should work since it would have to be corrosion proof to deal with ocean water.

I'm still confused though about how the controller pump works in your system. The picture stated that the control pump must be a type that can run empty. Certainly that doesn't mean that the pump stays on all the time? What turns the controller pump on when the fill timer goes off? It still seems to me that the system is incomplete.

The 5 pole timer that Krypto uses in his controller plans would be perfect. When the timer shuts off the fill pump (after the flood cycle) then that would automatically turn on the controller drain pump. Elegant.

Blinddate was trying to convince me on your system and I wasn't understanding then nor am I understanding now. I know it's not essential to you that I understand...BUT if my concerns are valid, that could mean that you will have problems. I'd love to see a grow thread using your system.

Here's where the links are and our discussion was right around there...page 14

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99681&page=14

Peace,
ET
Click to expand...
 
S

stillsmokin843

Member
you could fit way more plants or have less light one 1000 watt will cover a 4x4 area very well with one plant per sq ft. looks good and easy. i am a lil lost though but by putting a float switch in the top of the controller bucket tied in to the controller pump when the controller bucket reached the top it would back flow to the rez. it is similar to the ebb and grow bucket system the buckets are filled off gravity form the controller and the pump in the controller being on a float will make sure you have no floods. i am high as a kite hope i made sense.
 
S

stillsmokin843

Member
yea i would do away with the timmer in the controller bucket and replace it with a float valve. if not there is a good chance that you might get a flood
 
E

EvilTwin

Merfolk,
OK...two timers. I'm getting there. A single 5 pole timer would do the job perfectly with ne messing with timer coordination. I'll find some info for you on that.

On your question regarding the sump pump. Yes a sump pump would work fine (perfect-in fact) since that controller (sump) pump would be hooked to a timer for the DRAIN mode only. That's the only time you need the sump pump to work is on drain mode when you want the controller empty so that the pots will empty into it. During the fill cycle...power would be OFF to the drain pump.

It's entirely plausible that there's a flaw in my thinking. It has happened before. lol But ponder that and I think the sump pump idea will make sense. That's the pump Blinddate uses in his system.

Stillsmokin'...I think you're wrong since the pump in the controller is for drain and you would want the float at the bottom. With proper timing or a sump pump...no other float is needed. But smoke another doobie and keep thinking!

Peace guys...
ET

addendum: Check out this page for info on the timer I mentioned. You'd have to wire it up which would be easy but it has 15 minute increments and two taps so that one is on while the other is off.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=6341&highlight=krypto's+controller
 
B

burnedout

Member
If you don't understand how this works go back and read the original posts by Blind Date and Apollo, they both explain it in a very simple manner, step by step.

It's a very simple system, two timers and a float valve. I'm shocked so many people are having such a hard time understanding it. If you can build and understand a Krypto controller, this design should be cake.
 
E

EvilTwin

burnedout said:
I'm shocked so many people are having such a hard time understanding it. If you can build and understand a Krypto controller, this design should be cake.
Click to expand...

So sorry we shocked you Burnedout...best wishes on your recovery. lol

I got it now...I was being lazy and forced Merfolk to explain it to me...which he did very nicely.
ET
 
BlindDate

BlindDate

Active member
Veteran
I'm still confused though about how the controller pump works in your system. The picture stated that the control pump must be a type that can run empty. Certainly that doesn't mean that the pump stays on all the time?
Click to expand...

No the pump stays on only long enough to drain all the buckets plus a little longer for margin.

What turns the controller pump on when the fill timer goes off?
Click to expand...

The controller pump timer.

It still seems to me that the system is incomplete.
Click to expand...

The system IS complete.

OK...two timers. I'm getting there. A single 5 pole timer would do the job perfectly with ne messing with timer coordination. I'll find some info for you on that.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can wire a 5 pole timer to perform what is needed. Any 2 cheap timers will work fine. They do not need to be digital either.

On your question regarding the sump pump. Yes a sump pump would work fine (perfect-in fact) since that controller (sump) pump would be hooked to a timer for the DRAIN mode only. That's the only time you need the sump pump to work is on drain mode when you want the controller empty so that the pots will empty into it. During the fill cycle...power would be OFF to the drain pump.
Click to expand...

Exactly.....Folks...the ONLY reason for using a sump pump is because it has it's own level switch and you do not have to listen to a direct drive pump "slurpping" after the buckets have drained yet time still remains on the timer. Think about it.
 
B

burnedout

Member
EvilTwin said:
So sorry we shocked you Burnedout...best wishes on your recovery. lol

I got it now...I was being lazy and forced Merfolk to explain it to me...which he did very nicely.
ET
Click to expand...

No need to be sorry. It's just that I watched you guys go back and forth in the other thread and it was obvious that you didn't really understand the system.

Then to come in this guys thread and question if "his system" would work and express your doubts about it just doesn't really make sense to me. Whatever though. peace
 
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