2nd Grow - Indoor Soil - organic

[kovenant]

so... on this 2nd grow i have decided to store my DWC bucket system i built for the 1st grow (Blazeoneup's system) and go into the dirt (inspired by Blazeoneup hits the dirt again.) he shows his soil mix and method for growing from clone to harvest without adding any nutes.

i decided to get 2 light movers for this 2nd grow and slide my 600W's side by side so i can cover twice the area. im shooting for 24-30 ladies this round. i had tried germinating about 20 seeds before i left to burningman, however i left too much water soaked in the oasis cubes and the seeds became bloated and rotted... 2 PPP's survived, and i planting them with the following clones:

Blue Cheese - 12 clones
Blue Goo - 12 clones
Trainwreck - 4 clones
Platinum Kush - 5 clones
Pure Power Plant - 2 seedlings






i prepared a starting soil mix to use in 18 oz plastic cups for the transplant of the rooted clones. the platinum kush clones i received only 3 days ago - so a bit more time is required for them to show roots... but will transplant them as soon as they are ready.

in the base of the 18 oz plastic cups i poured 1/4" of organic pumice to allow for easy draining. i should of used perlite - which i do have a spare bag of - something i would do instead next time. on top of the pumice i used the following mix:

Starter Soil
10 (18 oz cups) cups Uni-Gro Premium Organic Peat Moss
4 (18 oz cups) cups Uni-Gro Premium Organic Vermiculite
2 (18 oz cups) cups Uni-Gro Premium Organic Pumice
10 (18 oz cups) cups Fox Farm's Organic Light Warrior




i prepared an initial additive solution to moisten the starter soil and to create a healthy bioherd during transplant. the following mix i poured slowly, evenly, and only to moisten (soil was not made or left wet):

Starter Solution (mixed in 2 gallons RO Water)
1 tsp Multi-zyme
1/4 tsp Root Excellerator
2 1/2 tsp Liquid Karma
2 tsp Advanced Nutrient Piranha
1/4 tsp Advanced Nutrient F-1 Fulvic Acid

the starter solution came out to 610ppm mixed into 2 gallons of RO Water (6.7pH) - i diluted the solution to 200ppm in a pitcher of RO water. i transplanted into the 18 oz cups after mixing the starter solution thoroughly into the starter soil until all moister was spread evenly. i added starter soil into 18 oz cups until half cup was full. i dropped in clone, then covered the roots and rockwool cubes and topped off the cups with the soil mix.

Pure Power Plant seedlings (will have to be sexed)


Blue Cheese clones


Blue Goo clones


Trainwreck clones


Pre-Veg (400W MH) Day 1


5 Platinum Kush clones, still rooting



as soon as the current hydro grow is pulled and dried (about a week until the flower room is empty) i will install the light movers and prepare the room for the new soil grow. ill be updating soon.

 

[kovenant]

its been 1 week.

will get some new pics - but not much has changed. the transplant into the plastic cups along with the nute mix i hit them with seemed to shock them a little... but new growth has continued - the 1st fan leaves just started yellowing up and coming off (i clipped a few too). this happened my last grow as well, maybe its normal /shrug (its all new to me)

i have been watering ever 3rd day. last two waters were done with RO water only... perhaps the nutes caused minor burn? perhaps im over watering? i wait until the plastic cups are nice and light... but water before any signs of wilting. so hopefully its not over watering. i like to keep it pretty dry to keep those roots seeking too! havent had a chance to examine the soil in the cups either - may pull one out a bit to see what the root growth is looking like.

mixed up a nute batch in my res last night... i will start having my mixes bubble for a day or two before using them - as well as mixing up enough to continue using every few waterings. im tore between wanting to add nutes to the girls, and just letting the organic soil mix work on its own (which should have everything they need already!) im leaning toward laying off adding too much and just letting nature do its work.

im thinking of adding humus or more worm castings to the final soil mix i will be transplanting into over the next week or two. maybe 10% of the mix based on these. any opinions or suggestions? ive heard that humus really helps nutrient uptake - even when pH is high or low.

ill update with some pics soon! oh, the platinum kush clones are rooting very slowly. 3/5 have roots showing, but 2 still do not.

also. i was planning on keeping 1 mom of each strain... but during a moment of clarity i realized that our move to maui is happening sooner than i was thinking (after this grow) and that im not going to be able to take them with me.

i hope to save some of the genetics ive been able to work with (in clone form) so now my question is this:

how can i make some seed stock of these strains? obviously i have female clones... so i cant cross these strains back with eachother. (i've heard different opinions on wether breeding with a hermie male produces good seed genetics.) but what are my options? i do have 2 PPP growing from seed that will need to be sexed (if they grow... they are pretty stunted, but i had them sitting in a clone dome for along time.) if i get a male or two out of these... i could annoint 1 plant from each strain with the pollen and create a cross. /shrug

any suggestions?

 

[Dr Dog]

Looks great man, should be quite a show!!
I will be back for some updates

 

[kovenant]

alright. some slight changes. i ended up switching my mix up a bit. originally i wanted to use blazeoneup's mix (as stated above)... but pro-mix is not available in my area. i also did some organic soil reading, and came across the MoonshineMan's mix as well. so i came up with somewhat of a meld of the two - as well as a couple ideas of my own.

now, because the products i used came in different size bags, i based my ratios off 1 cu ft portions... i used a 32 gal rubbermaid trash bin to mix it up. 1 trash bin will not provide enough soil for my grow, so i will have to mix more... but also i realized that to mix such a huge amount may not distribute all the parts equaly - so i am hoping for some feedback on that.

so anyway - let me start by giving the ingredients i used:

Miracle Grow Organic Choice Garden Siol - 1 cu ft. (.1-.05-.1)
Gardner & Bloom Soil Building Compost - 1 cu ft.
Fox Farm Light Warrior - 1/2 cu ft.
Big & Chunky Perlite - 1/2 cu ft.
Vigoro Premium Organic Blood Meal - 1 cup (12-0-0)
Vigoro Premium Organic Bone Meal - 1 cup (1-11-0)
http://www.poolandgarden.com/espoma-garden-lime.html ]Espoma Organic Traditions Garden (Dolomite) Lime[/url] - 1/2 cup
Uni-Gro Premium Organic Pumice - 2 QT
Uni-Gro Premium Organic Vermiculite - 2 QT (how is vermiculite organic?)
Soil Moist Granular Polymer - 2 tbsp


now i realize this is kinda a lot of crap. but i wanted to do 3 things.... 1 was make it as completely organic as possible, 2) create a mix like Blazeoneup's and Moonshine Man - where you can go start to finish with just water (even though i plan on using some teas and additives), and 3) use products that can be found at Home Depot, OSH, ACE, etc... as i am moving to Maui soon and will have limited sources to draw from.

if anyone isnt familiar with the Gardner & Bloom Soil Building Compost... it consists of: Forest Humus, Chicken Manure, Worm Castings, Bat Guana, Gypsum, Kelp Meal, Oyster Shell & Dolomite Lime, and Mycorrhizae. (i picked this up from ACE after reading alot about Humus, Kelp Meal, and Worm Castings... so this seemed perfect!)

now im guessing its hard to have opinions on a mix if you havent used it... but im hoping that some of you long time organic gardners may have an opinion of wether or not this seems like a good mix. I should prob just KISS (keep it simple stupid) but i thought each portion i added would be beneficial.

feedback? THANKS EVERYONE!!

also - no pic updates yet, sorry... but honestly, not much growth and nothing has really changed so im waiting to show improvement

my 400w lamp was still very high above the plants though (like 2.5') and so i lowered it to about 16" above the girls.

i also havent watered for 5 days (today is the 5th day - and will be watering this evening) and the last 2 days the plants seem a bit greenier and more vigorous... perhaps (even though they felt dry) they were being slightly over-watered. dunno.

also - i will be transplanting the OG Platinum Kush clones into 16 oz plastic cups today... they are really slow on rooting - the small amount of roots poking through the rockwool seem so tiny, narrow, and different than all other strains ive grown. wonder if they are weak clones (weak mom?) guess we'll see how they progress!!

 

[judas cohen]

I'm really impressed with your DWC harvest and your approach to organic soil. Good job!

Vermiculite is inert and primarily only aids in retaining water. (It usually retains some ferts if recycled, but is not a significant factor when used again, IMO.) What's organic about a plastic grow container, Soil Moist crystals, or an HID lamp for that matter?) LOL

Different folks have different ideas of "organic"and "The Best Way To Grow", as I'm sure you're aware of. To me, raisin' reefer is fun; and since I'm lazy, cheap, and grateful for whatever I get, the "feel good factor" is a big part of my style of growing. Hope that's a Fair Answer to a Fair Question.

Your mix looks great and should work just fine. I like your ratios and amounts. I use multiple redundant amendments, too. It's fun!...not really necessary, but so what. I've found the trick for me is to keep mixed amendments NPK and pH balanced and not use too much. Looks like you're doin' a good job of that.

Based on your future results of this mix, some thoughts that may be of value next time around:

Kelp meal- excellent trace minerals, growth hormones, and K. (1-2 cups/3 cf of your mix.) Blood/bone/kelp meals work really good mixed together in soil. Occasional watering with 1/4 tsp Maxicrop 1-0-4 Wettable Powder/gal water would be a good alternative.

Do NOT confuse kelp Meal with 1-0-4 Powder with kelp LIQUID concentrate. All are derived from seaweed, but are very different strengths, release rates, and methods of use. Read and follow (start with 1/2 strength) directions on container to start with, and adjust from there. Any one will work fine, you don't need all three. The meal works best premixed in soil, while the powder or liquid concentrate are watered in or excellent foliar spray.

I use the Maxicrop 1-0-4 powder because of high K, cheaper, long shelf life, and can be watered in at any stage of growth. It also acts as a catalyst in making nutes more readily available. Many growers stop using after mid-flower as they feel the hormones could cause undesirable stretch in small cabinets.

High P bat/sea bird guano or MICRONIZED soft rock phosphate would add more P to the bottom half of your final container used for flower. RainBow Mix Bloom 1-9-2 would be another option. Or you could add to water as needed during flower. All are mostly soluble and dregs could be added to top of soil. (I realize you have sufficient P for veg in your soil mix, but a P bump in flower would probably be A Good Thing.)

MICRONIZED SRP, Humates, and some other amendments are available at Peaceful Valley Farm & Garden Supply and are used by farmers for fertigation. (Being hydro experienced, I'm sure you will appreciate what MICRONIZATION does for amendments not considered soluble.)

www.GrowOrganic.com will get you a Free Main PRINTED Catalog that has a lot of useful information regarding Micronization, Fish & Kelp manufacture techniques, nute analysis, release/availability rates, application amounts, etc. Great organic source that is not associated with hydro stores or MJ growing, and info in the printed catalog is handy reference for balancing soil mix and amendments.

www.greenfire.net is another similar source that is Really Cheap for organic amendments. Between these 2 vendors you can get anything organic that you need. (by the pound or by the ton...LOL)

EWC are expensive, but sooo worthwhile. A total of about 10% of your final soil mix (in addition to what's in your LW, and Garden compost mix) makes an excellent amendment.

1 tsp of molasses/gal water is also a good K source and feeds the microherd, as I'm sure you know. I use it instead of Liquid Karma, which is mostly molasses. LK is probably better, but much more expensive. Either way is good...IMO.

MJ likes light soil. Shoving your hand into your dry soil mix up past your wrist is a good trick i learned from 3BM. Your hand should slide in easily. Maybe increase your B&C perlite to 3/4-1 cf/3 cf of your soil mix. At least 25% of your total mix. (Everytime you water, you add O2 to your roots.) My understanding is that's one reason hydro grows so fast. Also the reason I don't add Soil Moist, even though I have some a friend gave me. I don't use vermiculite for the same reason.

I only have a few plants, and don't mind watering as often as needed. You have more plants and that could become work. Moisture retention becomes more important in your situation. I bubble my water to increase DO2 and mix my soluble amendments.

K-Mag is OMRI, 0-0-22, high K, Mg & S, pH of 7.0, water soluble, immediately available, and won't affect soil pH. Granular form can be premixed into soil for continuous feeding through the growing season. Also known as sul-po-mag or langbeinite.

Works especially well when used with oystershell (High Ca, pH up adjuster, and loved by fungi) as a way of providing Ca, K, Mg, S and pH up instead of/or in conjunction with dolomite lime. More info and Free Sample available from www.kmagnatural.com. Vonforne turned me on to it. You might want to check it out for excellent organic K source. Greensand (glauconite) is also good organic K source, but is slow release and best used in recycling soil.

Do you plan on recycling your soil? Probably not if you're moving to Hawaii, but maybe once you're there.....

I'm not saying you should change anything; just giving you some feedback and options. Bet our spaghetti or chili recipes are similar, but not identical. LOL

Lookin' forward to your successful organic grow. Best o' luck!

EDIT: If not too much trouble, would you pls list ingredients stated on bag of MiracleGro Organic soil. Is it time released osmocote? I did a quick search in this forum but didn't find what I was looking for.

The Gardeners Compost sounds good, but doesn't contain perlite, peat moss, coir; and bat guano could be high N or high P, or both. I have LW and know what's in it. Would like to compare overall ingredients of the 3 bags, just for fun.

Mixing 3 cf of soil at a time is cool. Try adding layered portions of each bag interspersed with portions of your amendments instead of just dumping each ingredient all at once into a pile. That will making thorough mixing easier.

Be sure and wear a cheap painters mask (REALLY!!!) or at least stand up wind. Pretend it's as nasty as asbestos. Wash your hands and fingernails with lotsa' soap after digging in the bat, chicken, cow, worm poop and mycorrhizae. Those lil' shit-boogers will grow things in human tissue as good as they grow plants. I don't usually worry much about germs, but you can't smoke pot if your lungs have spores or an antibiotic resistant infection.

 

[Dr Dog]

that has to be an award for longest post holy schmokes!!

 

[senseless]

this is going to be a good one.

what size pots do you plan to finish them in?

 

[kovenant]

so scratch the Platinum Kush ladies... unless something miraculous occures. transplanted them (dry) to 16 oz cups before i left to LA. got back and realized they must have been a little too dry. not to mention going from under the floros to 400w. i gave them some water anyways although the leaves are all definately toast... maybe the roots are alive and will get some new leafs going (?) we'll see

thanks for all the comments - lets get talkin!

judas cohen -> wow, thanks man. my first grow was so much fun... lot of work, lot of learning, but def alot of fun.

i do have kelp extract and will use it intermittenly and during transplant - but wanted to add some kelp meal into the mix as you suggested. its actually part of the reason i went with the compost mix, since it had kelp meal, ewc, and humus.

im going to be adding more of the big & chunky perlite per your suggestion. the past the wrist technique sounds like a good one to adopt - ill be using that from now on. thanks for the tip!

the Miracle Gro Organic Choice Garden Soil lists the following ingrediants:

A premium blend of sphagnum peat, compost, and natural fertilizers.

California & Texas: Formulated from Forest Products, compost, sphagnum peat moss, composted manure, and poltry litter.

mixing 3 cu ft at a time is a pain in the ass and not sure that the 1/2 cup and 1 cup addatives spread through that mix as well as they should... i may break it all down into 'cup' measurements and do 1 (or a few) bags worth at a time.

what size pots do you plan to finish them in?

they will be finishing in the 3 gal bags. just going from rooted clone into 16 oz cups, then into the 3 gal bags. which, i checked the root developement in the 16 oz cups - and the roots are wrapped all around inside and ready to be transplanted. just waiting on getting the room prepared and switched from hydro setup to the new soil layout.... hope to kick it out soon, but its taking some time. need to get the light movers installed and re-duct the exhaust for the lamps.

 

[judas cohen]

Kovenant: Sounds good to me! Your mix and water should get you through veg, but you might have to supplement with tea later on; but maybe not. Only time will tell.

I think your ingredients in the bagged soil and your amendments with the kelp meal added are well balanced and well thought out. You won't regret the extra perlite. You don't need the K-Mag with the kelp and the dolomite. (Just wanted you to be aware of it.)

The MICRONIZED Soft Rock Phosphate is a great tea amendment for flower if more P is needed. (Micronized is only available at PVF&GS; $4.99 for 2lbs.)

There are many successful organic soil mixes. I think you've got a good one. Subscribed and will follow with interest. Good Luck, 'mano!

EDIT: Re: mixing- I mix all my amendments (Blood/bone/kelp, EWC, dolomite, etc.) together in a bucket. Then put a few gallons of each bagged soil into tub and sprinkle a coupla' hands full of amendments on top and mix thoroughly. Then repeat until all ingredients are in the tub. Kinda' mix smaller quantities a little at a time and keep adding. Same amount of work mixing, but not all at once. If you find an easier way (other than a cement mixer), pls let me know. LOL

 

[kovenant]

judas cohen -> one thing i had given to me as advice when mixing is this. mix it together in smaller amounts and bag it into the 3 gal bags. use a 16 oz plastic cup to mould the soil around when filling the bags - so that when you are ready for transplant, the plant slips right into the 3 gal bag that has been sitting and activating up until transplant.

ive been rather busy with trying to arrange my room to accomidate the new soil grow. need to either move my AC box, switch the AC to the window and figure out a way to keep it as stealthy (or close to stealthy) as i can from the outdoors... the only window that fits it is 2nd story and faces directly out over the garage. OR keep it as is and just have 1 of the light movers stop short (where it butts up against the AC box).

the girls need to be in their new homes soon - so ill either be installing the light movers tonight or mixing more soil and filling bags tonight.

 

[judas cohen]

Kovenant: LOL I suggested you use the cup as a mould in another thread and you thanked me for the suggestion. LOL

I don't think I explained the mixing right in my last post. (See EDIT in post #9 ) The important thing is not to lose your place in what you've added when adding multiple amendments like blood, bone, kelp, EWC, dolomite, etc. I space out and forget what I've added when using a dozen different ingredients added one at a time and repeating each mix until I have enough containers of mixed amended soil.

Premeasure everything and keep it separate from original bags/containers everything came in. Then combine everything you've premeasured. That way you don't leave anything out or double up by accident.

That's why I suggested mixing them (blood/bone, etc) together in a separate container and adding the correct amount of the blood/bone,etc amendment mix to your combined MiracleGro, Gardeners Compost, LW, perlite mix. Few gal of soil, few handfuls of the combined amendment mix, stir it up. Repeat until you have your 3 cu ft of completely mixed soil with amendments.

You'll be fine, any method you use to mix it all up. Just don't let this turn into work...LOL

 

[stonedeconomist]

your grow looks like it is going to be interesting, and if your following blaze's advice you will almost certainly have a big crop. good luck.

 

[HerbGlaze]

Pulling up a chair mate, cant wait to see these gals in flower.

 

[kovenant]

judas cohen -> lol... wasnt sure who had told me, i even went looking for it and couldnt place it. was going to 'quote' them.

stonedeconomist -> im super stoked on blazes setups. cant wait to see how soil turns out for me after a good hydro run.

HerbGlaze -> you are most welcome here. i hope not to disappoint!

 

[ganjadreams420]

kovenant we know you aint gonna let us down. it looks like you have done your research. I am also a huge fan of blazeoneup's soil mix and method of tap water untill the end... i think that rocks. i bet your soil comes out nice and your plants to as well.
cant wait to see some progress... will be a good one.

 

[kovenant]

time for the long awaited update. WITH PICS!

a few changes to the layout of my room as well as mixing and bagging soil set me back a week or two (also because of other commitments, work, etc)... i would love to be a full time gardener!

so, i pulled the lights down. removed all the ducting (was going to be too complicated to run ducting with the reflectors on movers and coming so close to the wall on one side.) the outside temps are in the 50s & 60s now that we're coming into fall and winter... and without the water chiller adding additional heat - the 2 lamps appear to be operating fine without venting.

also had to pull all my meters, gauges, and powerstrips off the wall they were on, and mount them on the side of the room without plants... near the res, AC, etc. here are some pics.







i ended up mixing in smaller quantities to ensure id end up with a more completely blended mix. the following formula filled one 3 gallon bag after each mix... took a bit longer, but i developed a decent method that made me feel better about the soil and amendment mixture:

Soil mix:
5 QT Miracle Gro Organic Soil Mix
5 QT Light Warrior
3 QT Soil Building Compost
2 QT Big & Chunky Perlite
1 CUP Pumice
1 CUP Vermiculite
2 1/2 TBSP Blood Meal
2 1/2 TBSP Bone Meal
1 TBSP Dolomite Lime
1 TSP Soil Moist granulars

(i also added 1 QT Earth Worm Castings because my local hydro guy gave me a free 1 cu ft bag from a local guy who makes the stuff. i only added the local EWC to about 8 of the girls as a test group.)

the roots were all various lengths - but were plenty of growth throughout! i had poured about 1/8" of pumice at the bottom of the 18 oz cups so the water could flow out easily unobstructed... but it also added well in allowing me easy access to breaking up the root balls during transplant. i will do it again specifically for that reason alone. here's a pic of one of the girls with the least amount of visible root growth -





one thing i can say is this... mixing soil takes a hell of a lot longer than i realized. especially going into 3 gallon bags. wow. so after about 7-8 hours of mixing and bagging... but, since i lost the platinum kush clones i decided to plant what i had (originally was planning on 24 - picking the best of 30 or so plants)

12 Blue Cheese
12 Blue Goo
4 Trainwreck
= 28 in total





i poured about 1/4" of pumice on the top of the soil in each bag. my intent was that with the pumice sitting on the top of the soil, when i water it would not <i>drill</i> holes into the soil.





i do still have the 3 Pure Power Plants bagged as well now. im keeping them in the pre-veg room for sexing. i actually wouldnt mind having a male and crossing PPP with Trainwreck (and might as well try crosses with blue cheese & blue goo)





well folks, sorry it took so long, but hope the content has made it worth the wait. i hope to continue at least weekly updates on pics and how things are going. so far - day 3 after transplant and they look great. ive noticed growth. im happy

 

[judas cohen]

That's really a nice grow room! You've got 'til Spring to figure out the details. You can't go wrong with EWC. Happy growing!

 

[kovenant]

alright. 1 week of veg down. i have picture updates too!

Day 1 (Day 23 including pre-veg)



Day 7 (Day 29)



here's a closer look at the Blue Goo Day 7


and Blue Cheese Day 7


and Trainwreck Day 7




bought supplies yesterday to run a drip system, to automate the feeding. once these girls get a little bigger - manual feeding will be more of a pain.


here's a random pic from plant level (blue goos to the left, trainwreck on the right)

 

[judas cohen]

Different strains might require different nute strengths. Water can with a spout is handy tool. Drip would be great, if you can get it dialed in.

I admire your energy and enthusiasm. Happy Growing and Learning!

 

[Couch Locked]

Nice room my man, makes me want to go clean mine up...

Love the trays under the bags also.