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2024 State of the genepool discussion.

AcrylicGoblin

Active member
No, because when you take P1 and cross it to the offspring or self it, that's IBL
That's "inbreeding", not IBL.You can have inbreeding that does or does not produce an IBL. One is an occurrence, one is a possible result.
What you say here is like saying when a man and woman have sex, that's child. A man and a woman can have sex that produces a child, or sex that doesn't produce one.
 
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kro-magnon

Well-known member
Veteran
This !
At the end of the day, cannabis is wind pollinated and therefore a natural outcrosser. THAT is what it wants to keep a population healthy.. and this is in direct conflict with those that think the answer to good weed is to inbreed so much that there is no variation. When cannabis is so easy to propagate with clones.. i don't see ultra 'worked' uniformity as my goal when i make seeds.. because you will have already excluded so much of the genepool from those worked genetics that people will never be able to get back.

Now, some people may not agree with me there, but that is no problem - because they have absolutely no obligation to buy mine or anybody else's seeds. They can go and look for someone else who is doing it right in their opinion and buy those seeds.... or trade seeds or whatever. A market with plenty of choice is surely a good thing ?

What is pretty dumb imo is the people that seem to resent someone who is doing their thing and making and marketing seeds because their methods/process differ from what they see as 'proper'... even though those methods may well meet with wholesale approval from other growers who buy seeds.

everyone gets to choose what they want. Growers/breeders/chuckers shouldn't presume that their opinions about genetics and breeding practices are the only valid ones and that all others are worthless. i see each project as different, separate, and try to choose what i think is the best method... sometimes S1s, sometimes outcrossing.. backcrossing, sometimes just trying to preserve as many genetics and combinations as possible. It depends.. and why limit myself by declaring certain things universally wrong ???

eg. i have no interest in Autoflowering weed... but even so, i can see that the autoflowering trait is probably one of the most important advancements in drug cannabis in the last few decades because it makes growing weed possible at latitudes where it was previously marginal... yet countless people will resent autoflowers because they personally don't want them and seem unable to see the bigger picture.

VG
Having some uniformity can be very useful specially when growing outdoor, having some plants who will be ready at the same time can make a big difference between a sucessful harvest or losing some flowers to mold. Some traits need to be predictable to know what to choose for your environment so some worked lines are welcome for some situations, but I agree with you, there is something for everybody and almost every situations today.
 

kro-magnon

Well-known member
Veteran
In no way should everything be made into an IBL. Having seeds that produce a known outcome is why there made. I like having variation, it's more important to me.. Your gonna get plants that are similar nothing more. Finding something extraordinary in an IBL is unlikely
I think it depends on why you grow, is it to fill your own jars or to produce massive amount of flowers, depending on the situation you'll need different plants or seeds. When growing for yourself only I understand the necessity of variations to have more chance to find an extraordinary plant. When you produce on a bigger scale, the name of the game is predictability to be able to plan your grows. The goal of the grow will dictate what you need to grow I think.
But sure it is much harder to find an extraordinary plant in a IBL ; if it is well worked the plants who made it were already outstanding so the IBL can produce mainly high quality individuals.
 

wisemadman

Member
I think it depends on why you grow, is it to fill your own jars or to produce massive amount of flowers, depending on the situation you'll need different plants or seeds. When growing for yourself only I understand the necessity of variations to have more chance to find an extraordinary plant. When you produce on a bigger scale, the name of the game is predictability to be able to plan your grows. The goal of the grow will dictate what you need to grow I think.
But sure it is much harder to find an extraordinary plant in a IBL ; if it is well worked the plants who made it were already outstanding so the IBL can produce mainly high quality individuals.
nobody uses seeds on a bigger scale, thats why you take cuttings. IBL produce pretty uniform plants but they are gonna be weak, i doubt a big scale producer would even think about growing from IBL seeds. They surely have their uses, but it seems like some people think that anything not taken to F9 (random example) is not good, which makes me think that many dont have a clue of what a gene pool is and why keeping it large is beneficial for the species. Im not bashing IBLs, they are great and are the result of hard work, you can use those strain and outcross them for breeding projects, but if the topic is about the state of the gene pool, who's got old landraces seeds around,is preserving those cultivars , or is outcrossing the current hybrids with them , which are inbred already (just not IBLs), is who's actually doing something to preserve the species, not someone seeking homozygosity or 40% thc
 

Mithridate

Well-known member
Ibls drive the average of a line upward while highly variable lines have a much lower average but extreme on both end of the bell curve are more common.

I see ibls as a library of fixed traits that can be fished at will. Extreme phenotypes of variable lines imo is where progress happen.

Edit. When I say average I mean average in quality or accumulation of favorable traits/alleles
 

dogzter

Drapetomaniac
In no way should everything be made into an IBL. Having seeds that produce a known outcome is why there made. I like having variation, it's more important to me.. Your gonna get plants that are similar nothing more. Finding something extraordinary in an IBL is unlikely
That's my experience as well.
Uniformity was the wrong choice long term variety seems to be much better result wise.
 

Mithridate

Well-known member
I was chatting recently with someone about finding true to type plants of either parents in hybrids f2s f3s etc

Other have mentioned this over the years.

Apparently this phenomenon has a name..

Screenshot_20241231_010048_Chrome.jpg


Rip in the matrix lol
 

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
In no way should everything be made into an IBL. Having seeds that produce a known outcome is why there made. I like having variation, it's more important to me.. Your gonna get plants that are similar nothing more. Finding something extraordinary in an IBL is unlikely
Here's the strongest advantages I see to an IBL and it's why I'm almost certain Nevil worked so hard to homogenize and standardize his projects before releasing them. If you're going to sell seeds at $100 a pop, especially back in the '80s, your customers are going to want plants that look _exactly_ like the plant that's in the seed catalog.

If it didn't look like it did in the picture, they felt ripped off and wanted their money back.

I've worked nothing but NL for coming up on 25 years now, so it's safe to say it's an IBL. :) Since I reversed engineered NL, I've got the advantages of having a heavy Type II/Indica stone, a more energetic Type I/Sativa buzz, or my absolute favorite... a mellow and productive high with a Type IV/Hybrid.

And I would differ with you that nothing extraordinary can be found in IBL ;):

image-09.jpg
 
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kro-magnon

Well-known member
Veteran
nobody uses seeds on a bigger scale, thats why you take cuttings. IBL produce pretty uniform plants but they are gonna be weak, i doubt a big scale producer would even think about growing from IBL seeds. They surely have their uses, but it seems like some people think that anything not taken to F9 (random example) is not good, which makes me think that many dont have a clue of what a gene pool is and why keeping it large is beneficial for the species. Im not bashing IBLs, they are great and are the result of hard work, you can use those strain and outcross them for breeding projects, but if the topic is about the state of the gene pool, who's got old landraces seeds around,is preserving those cultivars , or is outcrossing the current hybrids with them , which are inbred already (just not IBLs), is who's actually doing something to preserve the species, not someone seeking homozygosity or 40% thc
There were pictures circulating of a field with 300 000 plants all from fem seeds from Greenhouse, a lot of big scale grows use seeds as they are more vigorous and yield more than clones.
 

mudballs

Well-known member
Veteran
Wellllll..... hybrid vigor is repeatable and additive in character.

View attachment 19125044

Inbreeding every hybrid to homozygosity would kinda defeat the purpose no?
That's only if it's in the pheno you want to continue...you find a codominant with vigor...yay! But it tastes like hay.. the good one with the transgressive segregated double reccessive blueberry has no vigor...
You choose
A)
B)
?
 

Mithridate

Well-known member
If it tastes like hay, I'd wonder why hexanals aren't being metabolized into esters first 😁

Ultimately that's part of selection, I'd accept one plant quality and acknowledge it's faults and look for another extreme pheno with complementary genes to mask the first ones weakness
 

Mithridate

Well-known member
Lol 😆

If the blueberry is there, and vigor is lacking, I'd add onto it and look at progeny for individuals expressing both.

Also I think we can agree that between perfect fitness and inbreeding depression there are likely quite a few generations separating both sides hah
 

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