16-18Kw house grow - tips&help with sorting out electricity

[ericsson]

A up 2 all the stoners!

I've recently started a grow that is planned to eventually run 22x 600W lights (three flower rooms and one for veg/clones), so including vents, fans and AC's we're looking at around 16-18Kw.

The house is quite old and obviously I didn't put enough thought and planning for the electricity, as already the veg room on it's own (running 4x 600W + other devices, so around 3K) burnt out a power cable running for one of the sockets after plugging on a 1600W hoover for 5min. This showed me what I'm really dealing with, and I'll surely need your assistance.

Can someone with electric knowledge please advise / help me plan a power-board I will need to use for the planned 16Kw usage, what cable size, fuses etc. I have some basic electric skills, and having that my plants are already two weeks into veg I'm pretty much on my own, as there's no way I'll be able to give anyone access to the house at this point.

Perhaps I'll start with the power supply for the house, this is how it looks:

There are three 500V/80A fuses.
To build the power-board for my 4 grow rooms, should I hook into the power supply directly, or can I do it from the house power-board:

The main fuse is 500V / 100A. From what I understand, 100A is very close (too close?) to the minimum that would be required for such a power demand I'll be needing when running all four rooms (unless all four don't run simultaneously), so should I change the main fuse in the house powerboard, or hook in before it and install my own fuse prior to the "grow" powerboard?

Also, what might be of some help - the house has some oldschool electric heating installation, perhaps I'd be able to cut it off and use it's power supply? Unfortunately, it's the first time I come across such a device and don't have any specifics on it apart from the pictures below:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=73820&pictureid=1760478
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=73820&pictureid=1760479

Would anyone be able to say can I use the heaters power supply?

All in all, whomever would be able to advise where should I connect into for providing power to my "grow" powerboard and what size cables/fuse(es?) should be used I would much appreciate any help, as I'm about two weeks away from needing to start the first 6KW flower room.

Once again thanks for any tips or advice!

 

[HqFarms]

Only advice I can give you is be extremely careful. Besides your box being out dated, so are your wires running through the house. I don't see a problem running only a few 600s but with what you want to do you much cause some real issues. What I would do is have a electrician up your service and install a new box with new dedicated wiring going to your grow. Honestly you are kind of going over your head

 

[ericsson]

Thank you for your two cents Hq,

Thing is, I'm in a country where I hardly speak or understand the language + the veg room is already in operation - therefore I'm pretty much on my own here.
I understand that it's not an easy task in front of me and my electric skills are pretty much basic, hence detailed information on how to approach this power conversion and what size/capacity components to use is essential for me.

I'm jumping in deep water here, bue believe that with some help and guidance I'll be able to sort this out on my own.

Thanks again,
e.

 

[Floridian]

You will not be able to solve this on your own if you want to run anywhere near that amount of power.Whatever you do,don't go changing any breakers like you talked about,doing this without changing the wire size will cause a fire.You need a service change whKWich means the wires coming down from the utility pole have to be upgraded to larger wire.Thats where you start please don't try running 15-20kW on those small assed service entrance cables.They look like 8 or 6AWG.Dont know what country you're in but your're not even close to being safe running a grow like you plan.

 

[packerfan79]

You could cut your power usage by running 630cmh, on a filp 2 rooms constantly flowering. You could get the same yield with less lights and less wattage.

First thing you must update your electricity. No way around it. Better to get it done right than to get burned. Rives might be able to provide some better insights. He's the man when it comes to electricity. If you are not in America that may cause other issues

 

[Raho]

you need to fingure out what your power demand will be in amps.

Your AC's probably have a minimum breaker amp requirement.
Please find out what that is (it is on the specs sticker on the unit itself) and report back with details on what those AC units are, how many of them, breaker requirement specs.

You will clearly be operating at the limits of available power. In that situation, flipping your flower rooms is a no brainer (alternating "lights on" cycle.)
How is your load divided among the 3 flower rooms? You want/need to divide the load into 2 as evenly as possible. This will impact AC load balance as well.

Can you dedicate the entire house to the grow? Because if you can, things get a bit easier. Shut down all but minimal power to non-grow related house circuits at the panel and run a new sub-panel to the growroom area.

The lights will probably pull 2.6 amps each at 240v. 11 of those on at 1 time = 28.6 amps.
The 3-80 amp fuses on the main panel suggest 240 amps at 120v or 120 amps @ 240v.
I doubt that wire is rated for that capacity though. Cant's tell from the pic. You need to read the wire specs on the insulation and report here for the guys that do this for a living.

Lets guess you might be able to safely run 80 amps @ 240 with that service entrance wire feeding a (new) dedicated panel.
That leaves you 50 amps for AC and nothing else running in the house, no pumps, fans or dehu running in the grow rooms.

The guys that know what they are doing with electricity do not make guesses or estimates. The consequences for getting this wrong is disaster.
Read this thread and educate yourself:

Growroom Electricity and Wiring
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867

 

[OldPhart]

That is the single strangest panel i have ever seen. Appears to be some type of antique DIY 3 phase industrial control panel to run motors and heavy equipment. Maybe some type of factory or machine shop, that looks like nothing I could ever image being in a house. What is the voltage between ground and the three lines, and what is the voltage between each of the three legs? I would plan on moving the plants out, and get an electrician in there. I'm pretty handy, and have a better understanding of electrical than most; and that panel scares the hell out of me. Ever think of moving the plants to the back of a moving van till you can get things sorted. If they are young and in veg, they could safely take a dark period of several days if they needed to. Not ideal, but better than dying or burning the place down. This doesn't look like a small job, even for an electrician. Good luck, and be safe.

 

[DocTim420]

IMO, go back to the drawing board.

18k watts @ 220 volt equates to about 109 amps (at 75%--never calculate 100%...gotta allow for the "startup surge" from your ballasts). Factor in fans, AC, equipment and along with normal "house appliances" and poof you are over the limit.

If the house is old, then the electrical wires are probably aluminum or even worse, underrated...which means I would use a 67% factor instead of 75% for that "startup surge".

Safety first! Back to the drawing board is my vote...with 80 amps as your starting point.

 

[Phases]

I have this same dilemma on my hands.

What you can do is use 240v and that'll cut Amps in half.
And also do two rooms and you can you the same circuits, just stagger your timers so that the lights are never on in both rooms. This is how I ran things at my last grow.

This is prob the easiest way to run that many lights.
However I am no electrician and don't know much amount electricity.
I'll be keeping an eye on this thread because I have to figure out how to run 9-600w lights and I can't use 240v - keep me posted on what to figure out and how you decide to run the lights.

 

[ericsson]

Thanks for all the information & input to the fellaz helping out!

You will not be able to solve this on your own if you want to run anywhere near that amount of power.Whatever you do,don't go changing any breakers like you talked about,doing this without changing the wire size will cause a fire.You need a service change whKWich means the wires coming down from the utility pole have to be upgraded to larger wire.Thats where you start please don't try running 15-20kW on those small assed service entrance cables.They look like 8 or 6AWG.Dont know what country you're in but you're not even close to being safe running a grow like you plan.

The house is based is Europe, where we're running 220/240v.
I will have to do my best trying to tackle/solve the electricity problem on my own, obviously operating in a flip mode with two 10x 600HPS rooms.
Can't imagine I'd be able to get in touch with the council (even if I spoke the language) to arrange changing the wires running from the utility pole. Cheers for the warning and suggestions, unfortunately I can't find any specs on the cable insulation - so all that's possible for me to do is give an approx. diameter measurement.

You could cut your power usage by running 630cmh, on a flip 2 rooms constantly flowering. You could get the same yield with less lights and less wattage.

First thing you must update your electricity. No way around it. Better to get it done right than to get burned. Rives might be able to provide some better insights. He's the man when it comes to electricity. If you are not in America that may cause other issues

I'm already fully geared up and it won't be possible to change my lighting setup at this stage, all I can do is cut down on the size of the grow (which I really wouldn't want to). Perhaps Rives will have a look and also drop a few lines of advice

you need to figure out what your power demand will be in amps.

Your AC's probably have a minimum breaker amp requirement.
Please find out what that is (it is on the specs sticker on the unit itself) and report back with details on what those AC units are, how many of them, breaker requirement specs.

You will clearly be operating at the limits of available power. In that situation, flipping your flower rooms is a no brainer (alternating "lights on" cycle.)
How is your load divided among the 3 flower rooms? You want/need to divide the load into 2 as evenly as possible. This will impact AC load balance as well.

Can you dedicate the entire house to the grow? Because if you can, things get a bit easier. Shut down all but minimal power to non-grow related house circuits at the panel and run a new sub-panel to the growroom area.

The lights will probably pull 2.6 amps each at 240v. 11 of those on at 1 time = 28.6 amps.
The 3-80 amp fuses on the main panel suggest 240 amps at 120v or 120 amps @ 240v.
I doubt that wire is rated for that capacity though. Cant's tell from the pic. You need to read the wire specs on the insulation and report here for the guys that do this for a living.

Lets guess you might be able to safely run 80 amps @ 240 with that service entrance wire feeding a (new) dedicated panel.
That leaves you 50 amps for AC and nothing else running in the house, no pumps, fans or dehu running in the grow rooms.

The guys that know what they are doing with electricity do not make guesses or estimates. The consequences for getting this wrong is disaster.
Read this thread and educate yourself:

Growroom Electricity and Wiring
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867

Thanks for popping in Raho, all thoughts and ideas appreciated!
Here is a general outlook on the power demand I'll have when running two flower rooms + a small veg tent:

Lights:
20x HPS 600W, Lumatek electronic ballasts

A/C & dehum.:
2x portable A/C with dehum., cooling capacity: 2,33 kW / 8 kBTU, power: 900W
2x portable A/C, cooling capacity 2,6kW (8.8kBTU), power: 800W

Vents:
2x 100w
4x 70w
4x 40w
10x 20w

Fans:
8x 40w

Humidifiers:
2x 15w

Regarding dividing of the load, I basically need to do a new, external wiring from the main power supply (which is outside the house), or the power-board (which is indoors) for all three grow rooms and build a new, dedicated panel for this purpose.

I was hoping that some of you would be able to advise how would it be best to split the power delivery (one cable from each of the three, 80A main power supply cables running into the house?) and what kind of sub-panel to build for the growrooms to best group the lights / ballasts so that they can manage with the available power / breakers I will install.

I can't dedicate the entire house (in terms of power) for just the grow, as it's also a living place - but it would be possible to cut down the house energy requirements to the very minimum (there's a dish washer, washing machine and electric water heater that would be the main power consumers - apart from that it's just LED lights for the house, two computers and about 2000w for any "extras" running when used - such as a hoover, microwave or kettle).
Also, I'm not able to say how that big electric heater in the garage works (and how is it powered /from where/), but that also can be cut off, as I'll be using a warm air distribution system to heat the house during colder periods.

Cheers for the link, after we burnt out the old-ass wires in the wall of the veg areas (running @2000w) when plugging in a 1600w hoover, I started going through various threads here - but I surely won't be able to plan this out with help from you guys anyway.

Once again I'm really thankful for all the interest and information that gets provided here - you hemp heads are truly a great community of people!!

I'll post up replies to the other messages within' the next hour or two.

Stay safe & catch U soon,
e.

 

[packerfan79]

I would pm rives he's the only person on here that I know of who might be able to help you. I would advise you to wear latex gloves when working on any of this, 220 burns .

 

[OldPhart]

Thanks for all the information & input to the fellaz helping out!

The house is based is Europe, where we're running 220/240v.
I will have to do my best trying to tackle solve the electricity problem on my own, obviously operating in a flip mode with two 10x 600HPS rooms.

Ok, that explains a lot. Being in Europe, if that is a 3 phase/400v/80A supply; you have a good amount of power there if distributed properly. I would expect you to be able to get 30KW out of it without pushing it too hard, but I would think you would need to be looking at a new distribution panel. You need to get some assistance from someone that is familiar with the European wiring. Good luck, and stay safe. please keep us updated, I found your pictures very interesting; I like to see things I haven't seen before.

I would pm rives he's the only person on here that I know of who might be able to help you. I would advise you to wear latex gloves when working on any of this, 220 burns .

Nah, it just lets you know you're still alive. Now get into some of this high voltage solar crap, that will make you think you're on fire, and makes your body numb for an hour or two. Actually some people claim that the higher voltage is safer, because it will knock you back, where the lower voltage will just make you lock up, and stand there and fry. I'll let someone else test that theory though.

 

[Gry]

1976 was a good year.

 

[ericsson]

That is the single strangest panel i have ever seen. Appears to be some type of antique DIY 3 phase industrial control panel to run motors and heavy equipment. Maybe some type of factory or machine shop, that looks like nothing I could ever image being in a house. What is the voltage between ground and the three lines, and what is the voltage between each of the three legs? I would plan on moving the plants out, and get an electrician in there. I'm pretty handy, and have a better understanding of electrical than most; and that panel scares the hell out of me. Ever think of moving the plants to the back of a moving van till you can get things sorted. If they are young and in veg, they could safely take a dark period of several days if they needed to. Not ideal, but better than dying or burning the place down. This doesn't look like a small job, even for an electrician. Good luck, and be safe.

The house is rather ancient, I'd say around the 1960-70's and surely not much has been done here in terms of electricity since then.
Do you want me to check the voltage of the three legs with a probe?
My plants are still in veg, but moving them out would be the last resort. Even when bringing in an electrician, he won't be able to "jump" any higher than the 3x 500V / 80A power delivery cables.
Also, if it would need to end with bringing in a professional, I'd like to have a ready plan for a new power board for the house and sub-panel(s?) for the grow(s?), as at this point I'm not sure what would be the best solution for my circumstances, and I won't be able to openly discuss setting up and dividing electicity of a three room growhouse.
Thanks, I'll surely do my best to keep myself + the plants safe & hopefully U guys will give me a hand it that

IMO, go back to the drawing board.

18k watts @ 220 volt equates to about 109 amps (at 75%--never calculate 100%...gotta allow for the "startup surge" from your ballasts). Factor in fans, AC, equipment and along with normal "house appliances" and poof you are over the limit.

If the house is old, then the electrical wires are probably aluminum or even worse, underrated...which means I would use a 67% factor instead of 75% for that "startup surge".

Safety first! Back to the drawing board is my vote...with 80 amps as your starting point.

Hi Doc!
By "go back to the drawing board" did you mean the power-board in the house - or "back to school", as to read-up on growroom electricity?
Since there are three 80A wires and my entire grow add's up to about 18K watts / 100A, then (if I'm correct), those two 80A wires should be much more than required + I'm still left with the 3rd 80A cable to use for the house appliances.
Can anyone comment on this please?

I have this same dilemma on my hands.

What you can do is use 240v and that'll cut Amps in half.
And also do two rooms and you can you the same circuits, just stagger your timers so that the lights are never on in both rooms. This is how I ran things at my last grow.

This is prob the easiest way to run that many lights.
However I am no electrician and don't know much amount electricity.
I'll be keeping an eye on this thread because I have to figure out how to run 9-600w lights and I can't use 240v - keep me posted on what to figure out and how you decide to run the lights.

As stated earlier, I don't really have a choice - where I'm at everything is 220v already (which is good from my understanding).
The way I see it (from the perspective of a electrics noob), I would use the three 80A power delivery cables from the outside service box, one for each 6000w flower room, and the last one for the house + 2000w veg area.
Whats needs to get planned out is how many panels / power boards do I need, as well as their setup and specifications of the components to be used.
The electronic programmers I use are specified to be used up to 16A / 3600w, therefore should I be able to run 4 lights on one programmer with no worries?

If anyone would be capable (and willing) to help me design sub-panel setups (if required) for the two flower rooms, I'd much appreciate guiding me in the right direction.

Thanks again everyone!
e.

 

[madalasatori]

I admire your can-do attitude OP

 

[packerfan79]

Ok, that explains a lot. Being in Europe, if that is a 3 phase/400v/80A supply; you have a good amount of power there if distributed properly. I would expect you to be able to get 30KW out of it without pushing it too hard, but I would think you would need to be looking at a new distribution panel. You need to get some assistance from someone that is familiar with the European wiring. Good luck, and stay safe. please keep us updated, I found your pictures very interesting; I like to see things I haven't seen before.


Nah, it just lets you know you're still alive. Now get into some of this high voltage solar crap, that will make you think you're on fire, and makes your body numb for an hour or two. Actually some people claim that the higher voltage is safer, because it will knock you back, where the lower voltage will just make you lock up, and stand there and fry. I'll let someone else test that theory though.

Funny how near death experiences make realize you are still alive. I won't be the guinea pig for the live wire experiment. I have been hit by 110 a ti me or 2 but never any higher voltages. I have ran 220 circuit for my lights but t hats it for higher voltages.

 

[ericsson]

I admire your can-do attitude OP

Thanks, but it's really more of a "have to do what I can" type attitude, I realize I might be going over my head here, but due to the circumstances, getting a stranger around is the very last resolvement I'd use.

Funny how near death experiences make realize you are still alive. I won't be the guinea pig for the live wire experiment. I have been hit by 110 a ti me or 2 but never any higher voltages. I have ran 220 circuit for my lights but t hats it for higher voltages.

I once felt 220v on me as well - not something I'd want to repeat, but I also didn't have a feeling that I nearly just died
Anyway, hope not to check out the 500V/80A capacity on my body, as that surely would tickle quite hard

 

[rives]

You have what appears to be a very interesting mess.

I'm not at all familiar with European electrical systems, so the first thing that needs to be determined is what you actually have. At the incoming fuse panel, measure the voltage between each phase and from phase to ground. If the leftmost fuse is L1, the middle L2, and the right one is L3, then you need to measure and record the following: L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3, L1-ground (the green wire), L2-ground, and L3-ground.

At first blush, I don't hold out a hell of a lot of hope for your service being adequate. The wire size feeding the tops of the fuses needs to be accurately determined. It's hard to get a sense of scale from the picture, but it doesn't look like it is adequate to carry 80 amps and you cannot run a panel at full load long-term anyhow - 80% is considered the maximum for continuous usage. The fact that the wires on the top appear to be roughly 1/2 the size of the ones on the bottom, that there are already 3 wires running off of the bottom of each fuse (each of which is larger than the feeders), and that the powerboard appears to have far more distribution in place than it is fed with, makes me skeptical of your chances of successfully adding that much additional load.

 

[DocTim420]

...Hi Doc!
By "go back to the drawing board" did you mean the power-board in the house - or "back to school", as to read-up on growroom electricity?
Since there are three 80A wires and my entire grow add's up to about 18K watts / 100A, then (if I'm correct), those two 80A wires should be much more than required + I'm still left with the 3rd 80A cable to use for the house appliances.
Can anyone comment on this please?
...

I say go back and calculate what your house can supply (80 amps) and then match your grow rooms to that limit (80A X 75% = 60 amps)....or 64 amps if use 80% as Rives suggested--never calculate usage based on 100% amps available.

Said differently, three 80A connectors added together will not supply you with 100 amps of "grow power".

 

[OldPhart]

You have what appears to be a very interesting mess.

I'm not at all familiar with European electrical systems, so the first thing that needs to be determined is what you actually have. At the incoming fuse panel, measure the voltage between each phase and from phase to ground. If the leftmost fuse is L1, the middle L2, and the right one is L3, then you need to measure and record the following: L1-L2, L1-L3, L2-L3, L1-ground (the green wire), L2-ground, and L3-ground.

At first blush, I don't hold out a hell of a lot of hope for your service being adequate. The wire size feeding the tops of the fuses needs to be accurately determined. It's hard to get a sense of scale from the picture, but it doesn't look like it is adequate to carry 80 amps and you cannot run a panel at full load long-term anyhow - 80% is considered the maximum for continuous usage. The fact that the wires on the top appear to be roughly 1/2 the size of the ones on the bottom, that there are already 3 wires running off of the bottom of each fuse (each of which is larger than the feeders), and that the powerboard appears to have far more distribution in place than it is fed with, makes me skeptical of your chances of successfully adding that much additional load.

Nice post, I'm not the best at communicating with non technical people. Also nice call on determining the wire size, I just assumed that it was probably good for 50A, but we all know how assumptions end up.