15 plant coco grow, recurring Nutrient/Magnesium deficiency problem

[Tokesome]

Hey opt1c, I`m not quite as confident as your good self, but lovin` the vibe, thanks.

Yeah I tend to change my res once a week, and now on a flushing regime once a week too.

Its funny but where I live everyone I know grows recirculating in coco, even the hydro shop advocates it and sells systems along those lines. I can see the disadvantage though for sure. My tanks are standard 602 with the nft tray fitted so I cant run my run off to waste, it`d have to flow uphill .

I have been pondering the idea of fitting a water butt or similar barrel in my grow room, it`d be very tight though as I have the room pretty much filled to capacity, but if I can see a way, I could feed all 3 trays of pots from the one barrel and run to waste in the res/tank below.

I have a bit of design and planning to do for my next lot as I fancy doing a scrog grow and wondering whether to go for one big screen over all 3 tanks or whether to go for 3 individual screens to go over the tanks, so I`ll see if I can work in a barrel of some description.

I`ll have a go at dialing in the feeding regime over the next week.

I flushed them today, but I`ve just f****d up as I filled my tanks up with fresh nutes just before lights off ready for tmro. I set the EC @ 14 with A+B and then added the recommended dose,( Rec. by Atami is 150 ml per 100 liters), of PK13/14 and its shot the EC up to 20. I know that`s too strong over all but lights are out now. I`m not going to be around for the first couple of hours of lights on tmro, I think they`ll manage until then as they were well and truly water logged an hour and a half before lights off. I`ll drain some of the res` off and fill with water and maybe a little top up of A+B to balance the nutrient mix as I`m sure that to have a value of EC6 worth of PK is a little over the top, and EC20 is certainly a bit high for the plants at this stage, I`d have been happy with EC18 but I`d have thought it best to be just under that figure and not above it. Grr I hate getting to know new nute regimes, wish I`d stayed with Canna now, doh!

I`ll keep posting what I do with this lot for the rest of the grow and keep you updated with photo`s too.

Catch ya soon, Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

My humidity is going down as far as 30% at times. Is this likely to give my plants problems, generally its in the high 30`s.

I still have some yellowing in between the veins of the leaves, but the buds are developing quite well. I`ll post some pics later this week.

 

[opt1c]

better than high; you can buy a cheap humidifier to keep the levels up... that's what i do in a sealed room with co2 for the first 6 weeks of flower or so... then the levels get up there

sounds like things are going well

 

[Hazy Lady]

Tokesome Hi, if you have hard water you will expect to be well over 2.0 EC, Cannas own calculator tells me 2.8 EC at one stage of bloom, I have some plants at the moment running at different EC's and they start at 2.11 and the highest is 2.38 EC and they are quite happy, don't be afraid to go up a little. I use coco as you do and used to have the same Mag problem until I started adding 5gms/1 teaspoon Epsom salts per 10Lts, took my PH to 5.8 and starting to flush PH'd water 2 of every 7 days, pouring through until run-off is also 5.8. These few things have made growing a pleasure not a chore.

 

[Tokesome]

Day 41/63

Day 41/63

Hi Opt1c, sealed room, Co2, stuff of dreams for me. Yeah I`ve always got a de-humidifier on stand by for when humidity is high, but never had the need for a humidifier before. What happens to the plant when humidity is low, can anyone tell me? I know what happens when its to high late in flower of course.

Hey Hazy Lady, thanks for dropping in. I dont like to use such high Ec`s as you prefer, I usually top out at Ec18. However I have bitten the bullet after today`s flush, and set the Ec at 20 for week 7 of 9 flowering. This includes Pk13/14 at 1ml per 10liters, and still no Epsom salts, though I`m not sure if I`m right not to add Epsom salts, wanna use the best ratio of nutrients for bud development for the Ec figure I`m setting. I`m using B`cuzz A+B at 2ml per liter and in week 7, and I`m also adding 2ml per liter of B`cuzz bloom stimulator. Not sure exactly what the benefits of the bloom stimulator, but I notice you`re doing tests on Canna Boost against Mollasses. I was using Canna before this grow but decided to try something different. I never did use Canna Boost or Mollasses then though and have had some amazing results. I cant seem to dial this strain though, this is the 3rd grow with this Cheese and its been uphill all the way. I have my doubts about the need or advantage of these booster products, I think there is definately a case of the nutrient manufactureres creaming off the top from us by making us part with stupid amounts of money by tempting us with golden rewards if we buy these expensive bottles of sweet odoured liquids. However I dont have the strength of my convictions this grow as I`m trying it in an attempt to squeeze everything I can out of this struggling crop. I`ve just bought my second 1 liter bottle to finish this grow off at a cost of £28 each!! I`d feel happier if the companies would at least give some info on how it affects bud stimulation etc.

I`ve now got my plants on a 3-5 minute feed 3x a day, this is giving me probably a 20% run off.

The reason I`m not sure if I`m right to leave the Epsom salts out is that there is still some intervienal yellowing going on. You can see by some of the photo`s I`m about to upload the amount of yellowing in the grow, its too much for plants with 3 weeks left to go. The buds are developing quite well considering, but I doubt very much that they plants are going to support anything like a full yield. I know a lot of the yellowing on the bigger leaves is damage from 3 weeks ago, but some of the leaves quite close to the top buds are showing some signs of yellowing (see close-up photos).

The plants are thin in the stems and not very thick in the main stem close to the pots, all the tops are having to be tied/yo yo`d up regardless of whether its carrying much bud. There`s something I`m still missing somewhere in my technique. I`ve just started another 2 plant grow (4 actually, but I only intend on keeping the best 2), I`m a little concerned that they`re a bit light in colour and taking a while to show root`s through the bottom of the 3liter pots they`re in, I`m waiting to pot them up into 10liter buckets. Its going to be the 2nd little scrog grow, but the plants suffered like my others and produced only 8oz from a meter square by 2 meter grow tent with a 400watt sodium, the enviroment is spot on in there and I`d reckon to expect to get 10-12 oz from it.

Ah well, lets see what happens with this grow eh.

Er less waffle and more photo`s I here you all cry!

There is one of the over all grow, and 3 individual shots, one of each of my 3 trays.

 

[Tokesome]

On these two photos, you can see there is some of that damn yellowing encroaching the leaves close to the buds.

 

[Tokesome]

This is just some of that good old bud porn, the resin glands are developing nicely and it smells just heavenly, even off my last very poor 15 plant grow, the weed was/is a lovely heavy smoke.

The last pic here you can see the bud has stretched at the top. . . . heat stress maybe?

 

[opt1c]

next grow try a coco specific nute; h3ad's gh 2 part 6ml micro 9ml bloom all the way though formula works great; as do the tweaks resdog does in his recipe thread over in his vendor forum... i'd ditch the b'cuzz stuff after this grow.. or use it for soil... but it doesn't seem to get along with coco... still looks like a cal/mg issue... i'd ditch the epsom salts and try that calmax stuff u got awhile ago.. with only 3 weeks to go u might be fine just flushing em out this run though... from the last pics you posted the buds might be good for 4 more weeks but if u gotta pull em pull em... i've done a 2 week flush with coco before... just water... nice and cheap... really really clean smoke too; yield will be less but i don't think it's that big a difference with coco; maybe i'll do a side by side in the future

if you have mylar in your room i'd take it down... the panda poly black/white stuff is better... i've heard bad things about mylar and the creation of heat spots in gardens

i've never used epsom salts personally; have nothing against them but i can't recommend something i've never tried

oh yeah; when humidity is low the leaves curl down and are very fine to the touch; all the water is being sucked out of them into the rest of the plant and there isn't enough moisture in the air to replenish what is lost causing stress... sucks a lot in veg and happens when co2 is added before pants have created a lot of vegetative mass to offset the extra humidity a co2 burner sucks out of the air via combustion... a 30% rh in veg vs. a 60% rh in veg is night and day; some strains, as always, are more prone than others

 

[Tokesome]

Hey Opt1c, the B`cuzz nutes I`m using are coco specific, B`cuzz coco A+B. I had the same but worse issues with Canna coco last time, but my mate who has this strain growing without problems is using Canna coco, WTF? It really is totally bamboozling me. I`ve heard good things about Flora Nova nutes and was thinking about giving those a go next grow or back to Canna coco, but I`d like to know more about the ones you mention above and will look into them.

I`ve been over her grow in some detail, the only differences I can see are, she has 2 drippers per pot, I have one, she uses much shorter feeding times, just enough for a little run off into a recirculating set up, and she grows in a cellar so its gonna be cooler down there than mine. She doesn`t even use a CF/EC/PPM meter, just measuring from the bottle`s recommended dosage.

Hey if they need an extra week flowering mate, I dont mind that, well sooner the better, but its gotta wait till its fully ready, but 9weeks usually finishes this one off. If the buds look like they`ll improve they`ll stay on the plants till they have. I`ve never had issues with yeild before this strain using coco, every bit as successful as my hydro set up I had previously. I`ve never grown in soil, but I imagine it would be slower and lower yield.

Yeah I`ve put reflectors up, windshield sun protectors, £1 each, and a couple of little patches of mylar. Mylar has proved itself to me to be a yeild booster in the past, and you can clearly see the better light on the plants, especially the sides of the grow. I cant imagine hot spots occurring as the refleced light is not going to be anywhere near as hot as the non reflected light. Also since I`ve placed the reflectors, the past week or so, there
`s been no change in room temps no matter where I place the thermometer.

Sorry Opt1c, I seem to be differing on nearly every point you`ve made today, dont be put off saying your thing tho, its much appreciated, its just that I`vw looked at so many things as a possibility I feel I`ve covered most things. I`m still falling short of the ideal growing conditions for these plants though so I continue to search as well as re examine what I`ve already looked at.

I`ll be keeping a very close eye on things of course, and hopefully enable you to keep a watch over it too.

Yeah did think about adding the CalMax stuff, but didn`t want to reduce the bud nutes or raise EC too much. I am trying some in the little scrog tent grow, so will see if this makes a difference.

All the best, Tokesome

 

[pipi taco]

hey bud .just been skim reading through your thread .just thought id jump in,i had what looks to b the same problem your going through,i took a leaf into my local grow shop and the guy new what it was stright away , he got out his magnifying glass and on the under side of the leafs was really small afids ,was easy to get rid of . and i really doubt that it has anything to do with ph or cf imo ,and may the bird of paradise fly hard up your nostral

 

[Tokesome]

Thanks mate, but I know my bugs and there aint no creepy crawleys affecting my plants.

T

 

[opt1c]

no worries man... just throwing out ideas

do all ur mates recirculate their nutes in coco as well?

if you had trouble with cana it could be your water; maybe a bad pipe leading up to your pad is corroding or something odd like that.... i've NEVER heard of anyone having a problem with canna nutes; they're pretty much idiot proof... so it seems like the nutes aren't an issue, the environment wouldn't cause stress and defs like that, so i vote for the water

maybe go over to your mates and fill up some jugs off their tap


my tap water was fine until summer ended and i started getting weird defs in my plants i couldn't explain, switched to ro water and they went away

remember you are growing weeds not building rockets


as far as mylar goes; i've yet to see a pic of a nice garden with mylar on the walls... seen a lot of closets made by kids in high school but white reflects much better and doesn't reflect heat; i believe the mylar does hence the hotspots

 

[Tokesome]

small ones suffering too!!

small ones suffering too!!

Cool mate.

Well things are looking worse regards the yellowing in my main grow, I`m tempted to start chucking some Epsom salts in the nutrient mix from tmro. I dont like the idea of calmax, because as I understand it to much Calcium build up can create Mg lockout, please correct me if I`m wrong.

Its really bugging me this one, like that last crossword puzzle question. My little tent sgrog plants are suffering and they`re small in the veg state, they`ve been in 7inch pots for a good 3 weeks now and no roots are poking through the bottom of the pots yet, so I suspect that the roots are not developing well. The interveinal yellowing is just starting to appear and the over all colour is pale and there is little vigour in them.

Hey Opt1c, I doubt its an individual water problem to do with the building as these small plants are not in the same place and they`re suffering too, whilst in the early stages so it must be something obvious that I`m overlooking, the enviroment seems perfect, different water supply, different nutes. (They`ve had a dose of Calmax, and Ec10 ph5.9, foliar fed twice a day and watered like a houseplant, not letting it dry out completely, then feed till run off starts)

There are a few photos of them here, do they give any fresh clues?

Thanks, Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

Hi again, I got to thinking about water quality and filled an ice lolly full of tap water to see what it looked like frozen. I`m sorry but I cant remember who suggested this earlier, but they said if it was close to opaque the water wont be good enough. Well here are the pictures of the ice and as you can see its totally opaque throughout the middle.

I`m still very dubious as to whether it can be the water, as I`ve grown locally for many years and the Ec has actually dropped over the past few years from EC4 down to Ec3. My other little tent grow with problems is on a neibhouring street, but my friend that is growing this same stock, with no problems, is only a few streets away and I very much doubt the water will be from a different basic water authority supply feed.

If I was to fit an RO unit, can anyone tell me which type I need? I need a couple of hundred liters a week. I`m going to get some water from my other friends house, who grows this stock well in the next couple of days and see if her water looks the same as mine when frozen. If there is a big difference there it`d point towards that being the problem, but I suspect it`ll look the same, living so near by.

I`m going to flush them again tonight and fresh supply of nutes. The reason I`m flushing again after flushing just 3 days ago is that the Ec has risen in two tanks (the 2 with the most run off) from 20 upto 22, and with stuggling plants I dont want to make it any harder for them. I`m going to flush with 10ltrs per 7ltr pot with ph5.8-6.0 water with 1ml Ataclean (Atami, B`cuzz products) per 10ltrs water. I believe this helps dissolve salt accumulations so may help if this is the problem, ie, calcium build up.

I do notice a lot of white salts build up around the bottom of the pots and in the drainage grooves of the nft trays that the pots sit in.

I`m going to reset the nutes with an Ec of 18, and include within that EC figure a dose of Epsom salts at half teaspoon per gallon.

The plants are not looking very happy with 2 and half weeks (9 weeks flowering, but if they want longer they`ll get it) to harvest, and the bud growth has slowed down again.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

please measure your run-off EC and report back, i need this for diagnosis

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi T,
Bummer that you're still struggling with your grow. I had similar water (331ppm) at my current location and even had problems with soil grows.

I bought an inexpensive RO unit from an ebay seller Splash-H2O is the company name if memory serves. It's worked well for two years dropping water to around 30ppm. I have low water pressure so the 75 gallon/day unit only produces half that...but I have a float controlled 55 gal res just to collect RO water so I always have enough for res changes.

It's a three phase which is...the main RO part, plus a sediment filter and a carbon filter to remove chlorine. The sediment and carbon filters need to be changed annually and if you do that...the RO part will last a long time. (Chlorine will kill the RO membrane)

Mine cost around $100

Peace,
ET

 

[bonecarver_OG]

ok so you done it

well problem solved;

flush continuosly, and use less nutes untill you have an run-off ec under 1.6, and you should water with a maximmum nute ec of 1.2 in most cases. but if you have nute hungry strains, you have to flush even more the more the plants eat the higher is the salt levels. gotto get that out to leave room for the plant to feed.

the plants are suffering from toxic salt build up.

very few strains of cannabis handle EC that high.

peace

 

[Tokesome]

Yeah I`ll look into the RO water unit ET. Yeah it really is a bummer, I`m so fed up with it.

Hi Bonecarver, Ec 12 seems low for late in flower, were you looking at the younger ones I have in veg? I agree Ec20 is a little high though, and dropping this down to around Ec16-18, including Epsom salts. My run off Ec has been the same as what is going in except for this last 3 days where its started creeping up.

Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

Hey ET, will this do the job??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REVERSE-OSMOS...s_JN?hash=item45e97a6c7a&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

Thanks, Tokesome

 

[Wait...What?]

Hey ET, will this do the job??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REVERSE-OSMOS...s_JN?hash=item45e97a6c7a&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

Thanks, Tokesome

Many people need the electric pump. The more pressure you have, the more water gets forced through the RO filter and the less that gets bypassed to waste.

but yeah any of those ebay filters work fine. some are assembled by more attentive people than others, so you may have to fix some leaks. But they're all basically assembled from the same components, for whatever its worth...

ro+di fixed my tap water problems, but introduced other problems. i'm now blending them half and half.