Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

Has anyone done this?

-SamS

Fertile female flowers can be induced in male plants by ethephon (2-chloroethanephosphonic acid) and NIA 10637 (ethylhydrogen-l-propylphosphonate). Interestingly, stamens could be seen arising even from fruits. Stopping the application of growth regulators caused the plants to revert to their original sex. We hypothesized that in Cannabis, GA and ethylene act as male and female hormones respectively, and that the expression of sex is controlled by a balance between their endogenous levels. Abscisic acid (ABA) is able to overcome the GA induced male flower formation (Mohan Ram and Jaiswal 1973; Mohan Ram and Sett 1985).

Mohan Ram H Y and Sett R 1985 Cannabis sativa; in CRC
handbook of flowering (ed. Halevy A H) (Boca Raton: CRC
Press) Vol. II, pp 131–139

Mohan Ram H Y and Jaiswal V S 1973 The possible role of
ethylene and gibberellins in flower sex expression of Canna-
bis sativa; in Proceedings of 8th International Conference on
Plant Growth Substances (Tokyo: Hirokawa Publishing Co)
pp 987–996172

Although many environmental groups worry about toxicity resulting from use of growth hormones and fertilizers, the toxicity of ethephon is actually very low, and any ethephon used on the plant material is converted very quickly to ethylene.

dubi · Sep 18, 2008

Good day Sam,

I have reversed a few females with STS but never did it with a male to check her hidden female expression and traits.

After STS application, silver is stored in the plant in toxic quantities.... reversing a male into female you can check some important flowering traits like aromas, resin production, ovary and pistil formation/distribution but have you found a non toxic reversal product so you can smoke your reversed males?

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

As far as I know ethephon is pretty harmless...

-SamS

dubi · Sep 18, 2008

Thanks Sam,

My chemist knwoledge is nule but i was curious about non toxic alternatives to STS. Have you smoked reversed males treated with ethephon?

esbe · Sep 18, 2008

good idea! must be fun to try!

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

No I have not.

-SamS

melvin2 · Sep 18, 2008

I was just thinking about this today. Funny to see a post on the same day. Like would a male show it's traits through female flowers, or would recessive female genes come out during a sex change?

dubi · Sep 18, 2008

Yes, esbe im curious to try it too but im worried about toxicity....

esbe · Sep 18, 2008

otherwise you must try the "naturel" stress methods or get the buds tested on laboratory

JWP · Sep 18, 2008

Sounds like a good idea. Take cuts from all the males. Reverse the plant to see which has the best female quallities and use the best cuts to pollinate the prised female.
Produce some uber beans
Just doubled the frequency of the genes resposable for the traits you want. The term should be called "Stacking" ... lol ... stacking dominant traits on alleles :rasta:

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

I have not had much luck stressing male clones to make them turn female, if you look up the Safety data sheet it does not sound dangerous.
Remember most of the ethephon will rapidly convert to Ethylene...
And as far as I know Ethylene in the amounts we are talking about in a dried mature Cannabis flower will be unimportant.

-SamS

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/ethephon.htm

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=16672-87-0

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0297.htm

dubi · Sep 18, 2008

esbe said:
otherwise you must try the "naturel" stress methods or get the buds tested on laboratory

Im not sure esbe, reversing a plant by classic ambiental factors (extreme photoperiod variation, extreme topping or shocking, lack of NPK ...) doesnt produce enought flowers of the opposite sex to properly judge it. You need to heavily modify its ethylene hormonal state to produce an almost complete sex reversal using substances like STS and others.

If the stressed plant by classic ambiental factors easily hermies, then is not a desirable plant to breed with, at least for sinsemilla ganja breeding.

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

I guess I need to try this and test the results, I am thinking everyone has problems deciding what is a keeper male? You could make numerous crosses with known female clones and grow out the progeny of each but it is a lot of work taking a lot of time and space and requiring a lot of plants and most growers just do not do it.
I am thinking that if you transform your male clones to Female, smoke them you will get a good idea what genes the male has to pass on to progeny, you still need to do progeny testing but you could whittle down the numbers of males you need to progeny test in the first place. Just turn the males female and start with the best to do progeny testing...
I suspect the genes responsible for a plant with high THC, none of the wrong Cannabinoids, as well as the right terpenoids, will express in a female that was made from a male, and no more trying to guess or smoking real males to try and make an educated guess...
To me it seems like it should work.
I have read that the males transformed to female have a high incidence of sterility and have trouble making seeds, but that is unimportant if you just want to judge your male to determine it's suitability for breedin with your elite female clones. If anyone is still using real males to make seeds that are male and female anymore...
-SamS

esbe · Sep 18, 2008

i will look much forward to that project sam! hope that others join up or already have experiences with the method that they want to share with us

JWP · Sep 18, 2008

Yes test test test. This is something i could really put my time into. It a worthy field.
If all goes to plan this thread would be marked as THE point in time that a massive jump in the evolution of breeding was made.
Serously gone are the days of hit and miss when selecting males when the term selecting didnt have as deep a meaning as this.
This idea of stacking the genes is fcking awsome. Its pretty exciting even typing out this post.
When you think about it... Its like compound interest... The rewards will be massive.
When you select the best males with the traits you want from this method really your not selecting male traits at all, rather female traits to match the selected female. The genes are stacked efectivly doubeling the frequency and in the next gen it will be x4. then x8 then x16 when with regular breeding it would be x2 x4 x8
This is seriously a huge idea sams :yes:

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

I thought it was valuable so I mentioned it, shame I didn't think of it 10 years ago before all the seed breeders stopped using males and now mostly seem to use STS transformed females as males for pollen, as all female seeds sell for more...
Anyway it should be tried as it allows you to express all the normally female traits in a male (by transforming to female) and judge it for qualities that are concealed in males. Then decide if you want to use the male for breeding or not. Seems almost to good to be true. I will try it as soon as I get some ethephon, maybe next week.

-SamS

englishrick · Sep 18, 2008

i was going to make a thread on this, but i thought it would be laughed at...silly me

what would happen if you dusted the males calaxes with polen from your reverced female....??????????????

will it be sterile???

i emagine ......if you seed it with another male... you get male seeds????

Sam_Skunkman · Sep 18, 2008

Try it.

-SamS

JWP · Sep 18, 2008

It is to good to be true... but its still true.
I have been thinking a lot about genes the last few weeks and its strange but i had a feeling that something important was going to come from it.

It doesnt really matter about the competition from female seeds. Like all the breaders are doing it now to "complement" their lines lol. Let them use the mothods they like but this idea will allow people to produce uber potent varieties in half the time.

To me the reality of this idea is; the most potent variety in 100 years from now can be had in 50 years. I look at most things in life purely from a mathematical point of view. This view is sweeeet

esbe · Sep 18, 2008

yip, keep the fun level high!

though im not so shure we will end up with much better cannabis than is grown now or before

cant be true no one never worked this thing before?

Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking quality

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