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VIDEO: magnetic ballists strobeing vs. digital

- ezra -

- ezra -

.strangelove.
Veteran
firstly, the 400 would obviously put out less light than a 600. Secondly, the lamp is not supposed to cycle like that (the strobe effect) this probably means the lamp needs to be replaced, or its an old ballast or something.

I am under the impression that a digital ballast is more efficient at start up, but the lamp operates at the same power once it is warmed up. I could be wrong, but I dont think there is much difference (if any) in the light output.

- Ez
 
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DIGITALHIPPY

DIGITALHIPPY

Active member
Veteran
- ezra - said:
The video does not prove anything

firstly, the 400 would obviously put out less light than a 600. Secondly, the lamp is not supposed to cycle like that (the strobe effect) this probably means the lamp needs to be replaced, or its an old ballast or something.

I am under the impression that a digital ballast is more efficient at start up, but the lamp operates at the same power once it is warmed up. I could be wrong, but I dont think there is much difference (if any) in the light output.

- Ez
Click to expand...

im sorry man, but its a new bulb, i tried it with an old bulb and it does the same thing. infact its even in the doctumentation of the digis about the steady supply of juice. magnetic ballists have a 60Hz frequency. so it strobes superfast 60 times a second.
its all simple physics and electronics.
now as a matter of how much output(plant growth) is lost from 50nanoseconds of minimal light situations has got to be minimal to non-existant.
its still down to a small savings in electricity. maybe % more lumins. but minimal none the less.
 
N

Neptune

the only true benefit to e/d ballasts is their silent operation, and longer bulb life.

which are both huge, and good enough reasons for me.

but, you won't find me switching any of my magnetic ballasts out until they cease working. No point to ditch an investment when it works just fine.
 
DIGITALHIPPY

DIGITALHIPPY

Active member
Veteran
captainamerica said:
And they are much more efficient aren't they?
Click to expand...

they save a little bit of power.
my "watts up"
http://www.smarthome.com/9055.html
metere shows between 8% and 10% power savings over a hydrofarm 600.
during 'warm-up' it drops to 5% (first 5 min)
over the years it will pay for itself. but not asmuch as they want you to think, or as fast.

neptune -
aman on that brother.
my 400 was used for 5 years before i got it, and with the 'advanced' coil it has and the low wattage it should last for 5 more years....
but i started with nothing so new digis were a good option for someone like me to take.
-personaly i dont have a use for 'silent' operation'
they do run cooler though. and being in the 'cold' grow room im sure they will last longer running at a chilly 70... maybe even 1% more effeciant..


people say there is minimal increase in light output.
with a normal coil a 600 HPS puts out alot of light. i doubt there is more then 5 or 10% extra light....of which the plant probably uses 2-3%...if that.

i wanted power savings, with 2200 watts 1050 in a/c plus household useage my power bills (500-600/month) are my primary concern.
with my stellar consumption i wanted anything to decrease that useage.

i also added a "UPS" to my a/c line so i could correct the power factor. and increase efficancy.
 
G

Guest

I actually have a strobing problem, very visible, with my Sunmaster MH in a 600 Lumatek.
 
- ezra -

- ezra -

.strangelove.
Veteran
DIGITALHIPPY said:
im sorry man, but its a new bulb, i tried it with an old bulb and it does the same thing. infact its even in the doctumentation of the digis about the steady supply of juice. magnetic ballists have a 60Hz frequency. so it strobes superfast 60 times a second.
its all simple physics and electronics.
now as a matter of how much output(plant growth) is lost from 50nanoseconds of minimal light situations has got to be minimal to non-existant.
its still down to a small savings in electricity. maybe % more lumins. but minimal none the less.
Click to expand...

hmmm... maybe the actual 400 ballast is in need of replacing. I have never seen a magnetic ballast cause strobing like that. It does not look like 60 hz to me. I am sure the digital ballasts are a little better, but the video I think does not really prove this.

peace, Ez
 
DIGITALHIPPY

DIGITALHIPPY

Active member
Veteran
- ezra - said:
hmmm... maybe the actual 400 ballast is in need of replacing. I have never seen a magnetic ballast cause strobing like that. It does not look like 60 hz to me. I am sure the digital ballasts are a little better, but the video I think does not really prove this.

peace, Ez
Click to expand...

so it only works on the magnetic ballists i shoot with my camra??
my 1k mh mag does it also, my friends 3 1k hps's all do it and 2 of the 3 bulbs are new and i dont know what ones. im sure if you all looked at the bulb through the camra even without takeing video the magnetics will strobe and the digitals wont.

its so funny. my magnetic florescent tubes strobe also...
im inclined to buy a T5 just so i can see if the digital ballist in that strobes also...
 
- ezra -

- ezra -

.strangelove.
Veteran
...interesting, you might be onto something in that case. So the strobe effect only occurrs when viewed through a camera?
 
blackone

blackone

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- ezra - said:
It does not look like 60 hz to me.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that the vido itself is what? 24 fps? So you have 2 cycles that will create a new cycle with a frequency determined by how often the cycles match. A little like the way wheels in western movies sometimes seem to spin slowly backwards.

This oscillation is also very evident when taking a digital photograph with a cheap camera:



This strobing is a direct result of alternating current and can be seen in all discharge lights - both HIDs and flouros - because the electrical energy is converted directly to light. Incandescents won't show this strobing because the light output is blackbody radiation from the heated wire. The temperature of the wire will be almost constant because it takes time to cool down/heat up.

You can see approx 10 lines here so it means the camera's scan time is 5 periods. In Denmark we have 50 hz so the scan time of my cellphone camera must be around 1/10 second. It's not unlikely that a lamp will perform better with a more constant current, since the highs and lows will be outside the lamp's optimal current.

Energy loss in the ballast must also be high since a magnetic gets extremely hot - I heard around 70 watts for a 600W magnetic. I don't know about the digitals since I don't have experience with those except it should be a lot less - the proof is in how hot the ballast gets.
 
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blackone

blackone

Active member
Veteran
One more thing, I think I remember reading this but don't hang me if I'm wrong: Digital ballasts also strobe, but at a much higher frequency.

Edit: Ok I'm posting too fast, did a little googling on the subject hehe:
An electronic lamp ballast uses solid state electronic circuitry to provide the proper starting and operating electrical condition to power one or more fluorescent lamps and more recently HID lamps. Electronic ballasts usually change the frequency of the power from the standard mains (e.g, 60Hz in U.S.) frequency to 20,000 Hz or higher, substantially eliminating the stroboscopic effect of flicker (100 or 120 Hz, twice the line frequency) associated with fluorescent lighting (see photosensitive epilepsy). In addition, because more gas remains ionized in the arc stream, the lamps actually operate at about 9% higher efficacy above approximately 10 kHz. Lamp efficacy increases sharply to about 10 kHz and continues to improve until approximately 20 kHz.
Click to expand...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_ballast#Electronic_ballasts

So it seems there is also a measurable inertia associated with the ionization/deionization of gas molecules.
 
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G

Guest

DIGITALHIPPY said:
i also added a "UPS" to my a/c line so i could correct the power factor. and increase efficancy.
Click to expand...

does the UPS change the voltage? if not is there a QUALITY voltage changing product that would support ~1500w? (1-1k hps, 1-stanley blower, 4-10w, 185gph water pumps)

thanks!

[edit]
is did some quick googling on voltage converters. what i found are step up/step down combo converters that go from 110/120 to 220/240 and 220/240 to 110/120.

id obviously be using the 'step up' part. i think id use the 1500w

http://www.220-electronics.com/google.htm

the reason id be using this is that i'll be running the setup off a 15 amp 120v circuit and id like to not be constrained to turning off any other lights, etc on that circuit when my 1k is running. besides that, the items i listed are going to bring my amperage up to 12.5-13A on a 15A circuit if i run everything on 120v. 13A is 87% of the 15A circuit, 7% higher than the recommended maximum.


i thought with my light running at 240v, its amp usage would drop to 4.8@240V, while my fan would float around 2A @ 120V, and my 4 water pumps would come in just under .5A@120V. I'd have to assume, to be safe, 1A extra for the power on light surge and for the power used by the voltage-up converter. That wouldleave me using 4.8A+2A+.5A+1A=~8.3A.

that 8.3A would now allow me to have other lights on on the same circuit (it runs lights for 2 other rooms in my place). So I could still, without worrying, run a couple hundred watts of light or whatever on the same circuit.


any input here would be appreciated, as i don't just want to blow $80+shipping on something like this if its not going to do me any good.



 
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blackone

blackone

Active member
Veteran
It won't help you if you're still running 110V through your breakers.

If you're pulling 1A @ 220V from the converter then the converter is still pulling 2A @110V and then some, because a great deal of energy is lost in the converter.

No magic instruments are gonna save you there. If you wanna pull more watts you need to get more circuits.
 
The Slickster

The Slickster

Member
20,000hz over 60hz is a difference of 333, and seems to be a closer representation of natural sunlight which emits light at a broad and high frequency in the trillions of Hz. The gas is staying lit constantly and there are no humming parts of low frequency resonance which would account for extra power loss of magnetic ballasts. This will allow the bulb to be a bit brighter (3.3%) and last a bit longer (33.3%) depending on which brand of ballast is used. Ballast heat is somewhat relative to how efficient the ballast is at transfering the heat and energy generated and concentrated at the internal components to the external heatsink which is where it is supposed to dissipate. The most efficient way to install and position the ballast to stay cooler is an on the wall installation of the ballast with fins running up and down vertically with a possible fan underneath. The vertically positioned fins allow more air to flow through them dissipating extra heat away from in between the grooves. That's opposed to installing it on a level surface, sideways, or upside down. This will help it run most efficiently, and the Lumatek 400 stays cool enough with a small fan.
 
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blackone

blackone

Active member
Veteran
Since it seems not much extra output is gained beyond the 20 Khz range because of the deionization delay factor perhaps it's already very close to the point where the strobe becomes negligible, just as it is in an incandescent lightbulb?
I don't know if this is what you're doing, but don't confuse the strobe effect with the frequency of the light itself. The strobe is just a modulation of the wave amplitude - exactly like AM signals using radio frequencies.

Edit: Some research has also gone into how different strobe frequencies (much lower than 20Khz if I remember correctly) affects plants, since the chlorophyll molecules need time to react before they can accept another photon. I believe you can find some references to this if you look through the various LED threads.
 
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tokinsmokin

tokinsmokin

Active member
- ezra - said:
...interesting, you might be onto something in that case. So the strobe effect only occurrs when viewed through a camera?
Click to expand...

It acts like computer screens do when you video tape them.
 
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