Genetic Communication and Manipulation between plants.

Its been sometime now I have grown Nirvana NL and DP Blue Moonshine side by side, and the NL has got stronger and stronger, and taken on Moonshine growth characteristics.

So my question is, is there any genetical communication and manipulation (like dominance), between female plants while they are growing together?

Theories welcome, facts even more so!


Bubbl3r

Nope!

THey only transfer genes when crossed or pollenated.
Your getting use to them maybe?

if they were grown in the same pot then two different strains will compete for root space but other than that no... they just 'know' another plant is next to them is all

Lougrew, I'm not suggesting a transfer of genes, but maybe a "communication" resulting in a gradual change in structure, and maybe a production of similar cannabinoids over time.

For example, I've kept the NL for its strong stems and symetrical structure, with a view to maybe making a hybrid with the Blue Moonshine, which has a more vine like structure, with alternating branches.

They have been kept very close together, and after 3 crops, the Northern Lights has gradually lost its symetry, and now looks identical to the Moonshine with its alternating branches. The potency has also improved, closer to the strength of the Moonshine.

I'm suggesting that there could be some kind of "influence" the Blue Moonshine female has on the Northern Lights ones, that could possibly be a "built in survival" trait.

Bubbl3r

hearing more about your situation i think it might be genetic drift from cloning compounded by you dialing in the NL

thats interesting, are you suggesting that repetitive cloning itself causes plants to grow differently, or merely I'm getting better at growing the NL?

Bubbl3r

both

iv had a NL thats pretty muched stayed 'the same' while the white skunk from the same order when cloned then cloned then cloned didn't seem to branch the same as the original mother. iv read all over the place that some old clone lines lose 'vigor' maybe just from the strees of being clones and cloned for so long.

also maybe some plants just clone better?

ampersand said:

both

also maybe some plants just clone better?

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gotta agree with ya there!...the Moonshine has a very hard stem, and takes a week longer than anything else to root.

no, what I'm suggesting here is that there could be some alteration, and/or manipulation going on, between plants when their in close proximity to each other, touching leaves etc.

I mean, we know they give off a smell....lol, but maybe theres a pheromone or something, that makes them chemically bond or become similar in some way.

hmm, maybe the strong smell is going to my head btw...lol

Bubbl3r

you sure its not just that both plants are adapting to their environment? (as opposed to adapting to each other)

The question of plant communication or non-physical interaction is very interesting.

We do know that plants communicate with eachother, through pheromones. A pheromone is a chemical signal that triggers an innate behavioural response in another member of the same species, or another species. Plant can for instance attract insects (for pollination) through pheromones.

As to pure communication, there has been much speculation throughout history as to what plants are capable of doing.

In 1973, a book called "The secret life of Plants" appeared that created much debate. It was partly based on the research of Cleve Backster, an American expert on lie detectors.
In 1966, using a lie detector, he accidentally discovered that plants have high-level emotional activities that were similar to those of human beings.
One day, Backster connected a lie detector to the leaves of a Dracaena, commonly known as a Dragon tree. He wanted to see how long it would take for the leaves to react when he poured water on the plant’s roots. In theory, a plant will increase its conductivity and decrease its resistance after it absorbs water, and the curve recorded on graph paper should have gone upward. But in actuality, the line that was drawn curved downward. When a lie detector is connected to a human body, the pen records different curves according to the changes in the person’s mood. The reaction of the dragon tree was just like the undulation of human mood swings. It seemed that it was happy when it drank water.
Backster wanted to see if the plant would have any other reactions. According to past experience, he knew that a good way to elicit a strong reaction is to threaten someone. So he dipped the leaves of the plant into hot coffee. No reaction. Then he thought of something worse; burn the leaves that were connected to the lie detector. With this thought, even before he went to get a match, a bullish curve rapidly appeared on the graph paper. When he came back with a match, he saw that another peak appeared on the curve. Backster concluded that the plant somehow understood he was about to start burning. If he showed hesitation or reluctance to burn the plant, the reactions recorded by the lie detector were not so acute. And when he merely pretended to take action to burn the leaves, the plant had almost no reactions. The plant was even able to distinguish true intentions from false ones. So according to Backster, plants have some kind of Extra Sensory Projection capacity to percieve emotions, thoughts and intent.

Needless to say, this has been rejected by the scientific establishment. Independent experiments performed with lie detectors on plants have not reached the same conclusions as Backster. If any crackpot had presented these theories, the debate would be dead by now. But Cleve Backster happened to be one of America's foremost polygraph scientists. He began his scientific career as an Interrogation Specialist with the CIA, and went on to become Chairman of the Research and Instrument Committee of the Academy for Scientific Interrogation. He claims that a lot of the experiment has to do with how 'tuned in' the experimenter is to his plant and more or less how green their thumbs are.

Researchers from Michigan State University recently discovered that plants have a rudimentary nerve structure which allows them to feel pain. It does not corroborate Backster's theories, but it can be used to substantiate some of it.

Plants sharing the same medium seem to be interacting with eachother. It has often been stated that cultivars of different species grown next to eachother can obtain certain characteristics from eachother, such as taste and smell.
For instance, at the Réunion island in the Indian Ocean, the local Cannabis - known as Zamal - is classified according to where it has been grown. The most appreciated Zamal is the 'Mangue Carotte', which is cultivated among Mango grooves, giving them a taste of mango. Another variety is the lemon Zamal, grown among Lemon trees. The most reasonable explanation I've heard to this is that plants do interact with eachother through the roots. Not only do they compete for water and nutrients, roots seem to be able to attack roots of other plants and 'milk' them of beneficial substances, thereby creating an interaction between plants.

There was a grower at Overgrow called Seaman, who always kept a male plant among his motherplants, because he claimed that they grew better when there was a male present. His trials weren't rigorously scientific, but it is quite possible that female plants smell or 'sense' the prescence of male, which urges them towards sexual maturity.

PhenoMenal said:

you sure its not just that both plants are adapting to their environment? (as opposed to adapting to each other)

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this is a good possible explanation for whats going on!

I've realized environment, growing medium and feeding can effect the health, structure and vigor of growing plants.

I've also found that taking cuttings from lower down branches, nodes 1-4, results in slightly different looking plants from cuttings taken from 6 upwards.

I've noticed that the Advance Nutrients feed and additives I use, has made upper branches elongate, appear smoother, and slightly more pale than before.
They also bend down and fold with a consistency more like straw. Whereas before, the branches were harder, stronger and had a rougher surface.

I've noticed that when changing the medium the growth characteristics change too, but what I'm suggesting here is that the plants themselves, communicate and maybe even show dominance over each other.

Bubbl3r

Rosy Cheeks, thank you for this wonderful input !!

A plant wired to a lie detector....lMAO..I wonder if they make better liars than humans too?

We have a future wonnabe, and heir to be king, here in the UK called Prince Charles, and he's quite famous for talking to his plants. He claims they respond better when he talks to them nice, and this could be an indication of good karma at work.

Either that or he is just insane, and the fact that he is breathing a ton of CO2 over his plants, is whats making the difference...lol

There's also some people that claim playing classical music to plants, also enhances growth....In other words, pick the right composer, and you could be in for a bumper harvest!

I haven't tried any of these methods myself yet, but I imagine that playing some bee sounding noises, would also stimulate flowering...lol

As you suggest, its possible that cannabis plants are very adaptable, and can share a symbiotic relationship with other plants.
They are highly adaptable to their environment, and possibly to each other. The smell and chemical exchange through the air and media, may have an influence over development.
I agree if a male is present in the flower area, that it could lead to an enhanced crop. I've also heard from breeder's that claim, if a lower branch is seeded, then the plant knows this, and the top buds grow more aggressively, knowing that there's pollen to be had.

I'm suggesting that there could be communication between plants, that causes them to change their characteristics, in either growth or potency, maybe by activating dormant genes, and possibly in other unknown ways over time.

This magical plant may have other magical properties, we have yet to discover!

Bubbl3r

very interesting thread! I've always been wondering the same thing.

it is alltogether possible that plants could communicate with each other via cehmical messengers releassed into the air, though im not sure there is much evidence to support this claim. you should do an experiment. first start a thread write out your theory then setup and experiment (side by side comparison grow with controls grown seperatly for control. use more than two clones for the experiement use as many as you can fit in your grow area as this will give you more accurate results.

C21H30O2, yes it would be nice to have some laboratory type conditions to try various trials....alas, sadly I don't have the necessary setup to do it.

I also get varying results naturally in my grows too. I can tell you that the clones I'm using have all came from 2 plants, and on the last run, one of the clones decided to go crazy and grew nearly double the size, and approx 75% more yield, than the others.

They all shared the same medium and feeding regime, under the same growing conditions.

Whatever made that one plant grow nearly twice the size is still baffling me, and has me thinking that they could all have grown that size, if only I knew why.

Of course its possible it just adapted better through the cloning stage, and was a healthier plant, or it's growth hormones level and metabolism was higher than the others.

Either way, it was the queen of the crop, and looked amazingly beautiful in comparison to the others.

Bubbl3r

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2159.html

DMT said:

Growing certain plants in proximity to each other has been documented to cause noticeable effects on growth, both positive and negative. The main companion plant that has attracted interest with underground marijuana researchers is stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) which has been said to increase essential oils in many plants.(6)

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DMT said:

(6) Helen Philbrick and Richard B Gregg. Companion Plants and How to Use Them. 1996. Devin-Adair Company, Old Greenwich, CT.

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nice input Hans...a very interesting article!!

this is just as I suspected, that there could be "noticeable effects on growth, both positive and negative"

I've often wondered if stinging nettles were in the same family as cannabis, and I'm amazed to hear that they could raise the resin production.

What other plants could directly effect the potency, I wonder?

I once thought about growing mint in the same pot to add some flavour.

Bubbl3r

Companion Planting
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=70980.

Thanks Hans.

I started the Companion Planting thread as I'm on a similar quest believing plants have many symbiotic properties some good some not so good and trying to weed out a nice 'natural' environment for weed to grow in.

I just pulled all my damn nettles!

On the subject of plants sharing space and altering characteristics... I have a plant at the moment the mother grew next to Jack Herer and I swear it smells like Jack. It's also a complete throwback of a phenotype though all my plants are from seed I've been careful to note what was where, and when, and have not seen/smelt this phenotype before this with this strain.

I think people should avoid instantly saying no to a question like this without any research. What about the Strawberry Cough story? Granted, I don't know if its true as i wasn't there. There's something in the story about the plants being grown amongst a plant of strawberries and this is supposed to account for at least some portion of the strawberry taste in strawberry cough.

Despite there not being too much real research into it that I personally know of, I'd venture to say that plants, even those of different species, can send chemical messages to each other allowing adaptation, survival, and possibly genetic advancement