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PAR watts

C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
is it accurate to say that the higher the PAR wattage on a light the greater it POTENTIAL to yeild on a given strain. a plant absorbs light energy and PAR watts represents the amount of energy they are able to absorb for a given light source right? how does light color/spectrum come into play? how does it effect yeild ect. basically im trying to figure out why one bulb is better than another so when i shop for bulbs i know what to look for and dont have to open a "is this a good bulb" thread lol thx for the help guys.
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
thx brainthor, i have book marked the page for a time when i can sit down and read through it. what about light spectrum? i know red is promotes flowering and blue tight internode space (good for vegging) but how does specturm effect the energy the plant recieves? whats up with enhanced spectrum bulbs like the MH blue ive been hearing about?
 
G

Guest

I am of the belief that it is not just the PAR or as knna points out the uE, but a sufficient amount across the spectrum as different colors(nm) stimulate different functions in the plant. For example, when I flower with a Hortilux I get big not super tight buds that are of acceptable resin content. With all environmental factors and genetics the same as with the Hortilux grow. I get a much higher yield and way more resin when I flower with a full spectrum 4k CMH. Both being 400w and the CMH only rated at 29,000lumens versus the Hortilux at around 50,000. The plants are shorter and nugs are rock hard & sticky with the CMH and in turn much more dense.
Just my take on it and my experience. Not from a long term scientific study or such.

Best to all!!

Azeotrope
 
I

Iluvtomatoes

Member
trying to push the plants beyond PAR just results in leggy growth, foxtails, and heat/light strass. 1000w bulb is happy at 21-24 inches, 600w 17-19inches, 400w 12-15inches.
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
knna said:
The only accurate unit for measuring yielding potential is the uE (microEinstein, not official unit)=micromols of photons per second (a mol is ~6,02*10^23 particles).Its far more accurate measurement of PAR than watts.

PAR watts is a better unit than lm, but still not accurate. 440nm (blue) and 650nm (red) are wavelenghts wich fall in the PAR range. So one watt of 440nm (blue) photons and one watt of 650nm red photons are both PAR watts. But the first carry 48% (near half) photons than the second, and as absorbance of both wavelenghts is very similar, the first watt have half the yielding potential than the second.
Click to expand...
so are you saying blue PAR watts carry more usuable light energy? if that is so why do people use red hps lights? hormonal reactions by the plants?
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
Azeotrope said:
I am of the belief that it is not just the PAR or as knna points out the uE, but a sufficient amount across the spectrum as different colors(nm) stimulate different functions in the plant. For example, when I flower with a Hortilux I get big not super tight buds that are of acceptable resin content. With all environmental factors and genetics the same as with the Hortilux grow. I get a much higher yield and way more resin when I flower with a full spectrum 4k CMH. Both being 400w and the CMH only rated at 29,000lumens versus the Hortilux at around 50,000. The plants are shorter and nugs are rock hard & sticky with the CMH and in turn much more dense.
Just my take on it and my experience. Not from a long term scientific study or such.

Best to all!!

Azeotrope
Click to expand...
what is a CMH or rather whats the C stand for in front of metal halide. so do you get a larger yeild with the HPS but better quality with the MH? pls tell us more about your own studies into the matter?
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
Iluvtomatoes said:
trying to push the plants beyond PAR just results in leggy growth, foxtails, and heat/light strass. 1000w bulb is happy at 21-24 inches, 600w 17-19inches, 400w 12-15inches.
Click to expand...
beyone PAR? im really not sure what your getting at in this statment can you please elaberate?
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
knna said:
Well said, Azeotrope, of course the yielding potential of a bulb is affected by what wavelenghts it emits. And more than quantity, in quality.

But its almost impossible quantifying differences in yield produced by differents spectrums. Ive been working on this topic, but the adaptation ability of plant's photosynthetic system to changing light environment make it very innacurate. It depends too of the irradiance, because light reactions to differents wavelenghts arnt linear vs changing irradiance levels. For example, blue photons keep the quantum yield near constant at higher light densities than red photons, thus blue enriched bulbs performing better when high light densities are used, but not so much when using low to medium irradiances.

Because of that, botanical studies are always based on irradiance measured in PAR photons. We can do some stimations on how a given spectrum works based on cannabis absorbance at each wavelenght, but it always be a rough aproximation
Click to expand...


great stuff... not that i understood much of it lol. can you reccomend a good site that i could read up on light as it pertains to plants cause i dont know what quantum yeild is and i would like to learn more about a plants response to different types of light (wavelength, intensity ect.)

so are you saying that with the MH when used over a relativly small sqft (say 100wpsf) that you get good results but if its more disperse the results suck? (laymens term translation needed lol)

i dont mind doing a little reading and studying on the topic just need to know what to research first.


thx for all the help guys.
 
G

Guest

Thank you knna -

I agree with your statements/input. I should state that generally I run two Ceramic Metal Halides at 400w each in 6.5 square feet. No glass as I believe that the blues are most affected/filtered by the glass. For comparison purposes I have run the exact same enviro/genetics/feed/medium........ with the two Hortilux at 400w each and the difference between bulbs is even more dramatic at 800w in that small space. So I do run a very high density either way. I have also noted that I fight heat more with the Hortilux bulbs as they have a much larger arc tube.

The Ceramics (cmh) are Phillips MasterColor Retro-Whites that run on my S51 hps ballasts. They put out a spectrum loaded with blues and reds running high at the far ends of the spectrum. Although my studies of lighting have been more application/result based and (lacking the time) less academic/scientific than yours, I think we see it very similarily. My educational/carreer experiences have been very beneficial in understanding where to go with the lighting and enviro end of our hobbie.

I think hobbiests like us would be well minded to try to replicate sunlight as a starting point. What frustrates me is the low frequency output of the CMH as the suns output frequency (can't recall at this point the #) is much greater than 60hz.

Azeotrope
 
Joe A. Grower

Joe A. Grower

Active member
Azeotrope said:
The Ceramics (cmh) are Phillips MasterColor Retro-Whites that run on my S51 hps ballasts. They put out a spectrum loaded with blues and reds running high at the far ends of the spectrum.
Click to expand...

Okay, I was curious enough to Google some info on these lights. Here's the link to Phillip's info on the Retro White CMH.

Retro White Ceramic Metal Halide (pdf)

So I'm impressed -- really impressed. I've never seen a bulb with such a balanced spectral distribution. I don't imagine we'll see this bulb showing up in a lot of growshops, though, because the 400W is rated at "only" 34,000 lumens, wheras most other "improved" MH's are in the 40,000+ range. Too many growers still haven't figured out that lumens don't mean shit. The lower lumens are the result of less green and yellow light, which get bonus points for lumen count, but don't make plants any happier.

Too bad they don't make a 1000W Retro White. I'd get my ex-partner to try them out on a largish grow. A little 400W is pretty much useless for a commercial grow, though.
 
Last edited:
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
knna said:
Yes, but it means just the opposite. Plants dont use energy, but photons, independent on how much energy they carry. So the same energy carry less blue photons (than red ones). Thats why when working with artificial light sources, the reddish are generally more efficient (emiting photons per each watt consumed). HPSs are the most used bulb due they convert more energy into PAR light per watt consumed than any other. In small wattages, MH may be of similar energy efficiency, but it spectrum toward blue make MH less efficients emiting photons per watt consumed.

In terms of yield per watt, any kynd of MH have less potential than HPSs, except in the cited case of very high light densities. But difference isnt excessive, and quality concerns favour MH.



Yep, rough said, but basically right.

I would say that MH yields are more independent of irradiance used, while HPS find their limit at lower watt/sq ft.



:muahaha: Application/result studies are the relevant. "Virtual" studies only serve to understand better results and know what to expect. As far as people try to improve their results, all is good.



I dont understand what you mean with "suns output frecuency", or why it may affect results. But anyway, when using electronic ballast, you run the dischargue lamps at KHz.
Click to expand...


great stuff man thanks alot. do you have any links or can you reccomend any reading on the subject of light and how it effects plants ie. spectrum, intensirty, frequency all that stuff. i want to develop a more complete understanding of how a light effects cannabis growth.
 
C21H30O2

C21H30O2

I have ridden the mighty sandworm.
Veteran
Azeotrope said:
Thank you knna -

I agree with your statements/input. I should state that generally I run two Ceramic Metal Halides at 400w each in 6.5 square feet. No glass as I believe that the blues are most affected/filtered by the glass. For comparison purposes I have run the exact same enviro/genetics/feed/medium........ with the two Hortilux at 400w each and the difference between bulbs is even more dramatic at 800w in that small space. So I do run a very high density either way. I have also noted that I fight heat more with the Hortilux bulbs as they have a much larger arc tube.

The Ceramics (cmh) are Phillips MasterColor Retro-Whites that run on my S51 hps ballasts. They put out a spectrum loaded with blues and reds running high at the far ends of the spectrum. Although my studies of lighting have been more application/result based and (lacking the time) less academic/scientific than yours, I think we see it very similarily. My educational/carreer experiences have been very beneficial in understanding where to go with the lighting and enviro end of our hobbie.

I think hobbiests like us would be well minded to try to replicate sunlight as a starting point. What frustrates me is the low frequency output of the CMH as the suns output frequency (can't recall at this point the #) is much greater than 60hz.

Azeotrope
Click to expand...


so they are MH that work on a HPS ballast?
 
G

Guest

The Phillips bulb is a Ceramic arc tube high pressure halide to put it best. They are available to operate on a HPS or Pulse start MH ballast. You just have to get the right one for your current ballast. They are exceptional with exception to the fact that they a only operate on core and coil ballasts either HPS or Pulse start. They develope a high frequency resonanace/pitch and can fail quickly on a high frequency electronic. There are some 150w and lower electronics tuned for the smaller wattages and there are some expensive 250-400w electronics tuned for them that GE makes.

knna -

In regards to the frequency - if you look at sunlight in terms of frquency of photon production/pulses it runs at some astronomical # like 8,900khz - I forget. A 60hz core and coil runs at a very low frequency and looks like a photon strobe to a plant.(here I am an electrical engineer stumped for a good explanation, but knowing what it means!!) There was a great write up by a guy that owns a shop in seattle that appeared Maximum yeild in the last year. We have had many a longggg discussion on the topic. He sells that spinnig light array from Lifelight Technologies. The tomatoes and peppers that he has in his shop beneath it are rediculous. Anyway, my goal is allways to get as close to sunlight as I can and still stay indoors.

Thanks folks for all the great discussion.
 
G

Guest

Just for refrence the Phillips bulbs are showing up in shops and some on-line retailers are selling them. They are also sold as Lifelight Technologies, but that gets the price up.
 
K

kokua

good info azeotrope :yes:

I ran across this info at bghydro's website and thought you guys would like to see it.

...if you haven't checked out their website yet, you are really missing out.

bghydro forums said:
Below are some tables compiled from data about various lamps so that you can compare and contrast different lamps yourself. Things to remember! Different sources of light have different light spectrums some better for plant growth and some not so good such as incandescent bulbs. Plant growth is heavily influenced by the amount and colour of the available light. Blue light at about 450nm favours root growth and intense photosynthesis. Red colours at 600 to 700nm stimulate rapid stem growth, intense flowing and chlorophyll production.

An interesting note about PAR watts and lumens for MH and HPS lamps is that the correlation between the two is over 97%. Meaning that for HPS and MH lights (remember the very restricted sample used here) on average there is less than 3% variance when estimating PAR watts from lumens. But remember that is an average and some lamps the difference may be much more.


Lamp Efficiency In PAR WATTS

BRAND MAKE CATEGORY WATTS INITIAL LUMENS PAR WATTS CCT
Argosun Classic MH 1000 117000 581 ~3K
Hortilux Super HPS TM EN HPS 1000 145000 535 ~2K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1100 133000 505 ~3K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 117000 470 ~3K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 117000 470 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 1000 117000 442 ~4K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 110000 441 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 1000 110000 416 ~4K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 1000 80000 340 ~5K
Hortilux Super HPSTM EN HPS 430 58500 220 ~2K
Sunmaster Super HPS Deluxe HPS 600 85000 205 ~2K
Hortilux Super HPSTM EN HPS 400 55000 205 ~2K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 400 40000 159 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 400 40000 151 ~4K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 400 32500 138 ~5K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 400 36000 136 ~4K
Sunmaster Super HPS Deluxe HPS 400 55000 132 ~2K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 250 22000 87 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 250 23000 87 ~4K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 250 21500 85 ~3K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 250 19000 81 ~5K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 250 21000 80 ~4K
Hortilux Super HPS Deluxe HPS 250 32000 77 ~2K


Lamp Efficiency In LUMENS

BRAND MAKE CATEGORY WATTS INITIAL LUMENS PAR WATTS CCT
Hortilux Super HPS TM EN HPS 1000 145000 535 ~2K
GE Lucalox® Standard HPS 1000 140000 ~2.1
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1100 133000 505 ~3K
Philips Son Standard HPS 1000 130000 ~1.95K
Philips Son T HPS 1000 130000 ~1.95K
Osram Sylvania Lumalux® Standby HPS 1000 127000 ~2.1K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 117000 470 ~3K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 117000 470 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 1000 117000 442 ~4K
ArgoSun MS MH 1000 117000 581 ~3.2K
GE High Output (HO) MH 1000 115000 ~3.8K
Osram Sylvania Super Metalarc® MH 1000 115000 ~4K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 1000 110000 441 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 1000 110000 416 ~4K
GE High Output (HO) MH 1000 110000 ~3.4K
GE Multi-Vapor® Standard MH 1000 105000 ~4K
Philips Son T Plus HPS 600 90000 ~1.95K
Sunmaster Super HPS Deluxe HPS 600 85000 205 ~2K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 1000 80000 340 ~5K
Hortilux Super HPSTM EN HPS 430 58500 220 ~2K
Hortilux Super HPSTM EN HPS 400 55000 205 ~2K
Sunmaster Super HPS Deluxe HPS 400 55000 132 ~2K
Philips Son T Agro HPS 400 55000 ~2.05K
Philips Son T Plus HPS 400 55000 ~1.95K
Philips Son Plus HPS 400 54000 ~1.95K
GE Lucalox® Standard HPS 400 51000 ~2.2
Philips Son Standard HPS 400 48000 ~1.95K
Philips Son T HPS 400 48000 ~1.95K
Osram Sylvania Lumalux® Standby HPS 400 47500 ~2.1K
GE Extra High Output (XHO) MH 400 44000 ~4K
GE High Output (HO) MH 400 41000 ~4K
Osram Sylvania Compact Super Metalarc® MH 400 41000 ~3.8K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 400 40000 159 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 400 40000 151 ~4K
ArgoSun MS MH 400 40000 ~3.2K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 400 36000 136 ~4K
GE Multi-Vapor® Metal Halide Standard MH 400 36000 ~4K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 400 32500 138 ~5K
Hortilux Super HPS Deluxe HPS 250 32000 77 ~2K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 250 23000 87 ~4K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 250 22000 87 ~3K
Sunmaster Warm Deluxe MH 250 21500 85 ~3K
Sunmaster Natural Deluxe MH 250 21000 80 ~4K
Sunmaster Cool Deluxe MH 250 19000 81 ~5K
Click to expand...
 
S

SkillsBot2935

New member
From my experience, and from some local grow shop owners, as well as ed rosenthal PAR is mostly hype created by companies to sell products. Lumens are more important, period. I mean, its not that color spectrum doesnt play any role. Its that it a good spectrum doesnt yet go hand in hand with high lumen output. Lets say you had two 600watt hps bulbs vegging that each put out 95,000 lumens, one warm and one cool, the cool would show better results. Unfortunately nothing like that exists. A 600watt mh conversion with a good spectrum only puts out 50,000 lumens...
Basically, the lumens have to deliver that spectrum and if they are lacking than so are your plants...
 
G

Guest

I think PAR does get over-hyped. Truly, what I have been doing is pumping around 60,000lumens in 6.5sq ft. The beauty of it is that I could pump two longer ceramic hps arc tubes at (Hortilux 400w) at 100,000lumens in the same space and get less resin, less flavour, taller leggier plants and less overall yield. The high output across the spectrum with the CMH gives lots of characteristics that bennefit hobbie sized grows. I am talking 6-10oz from 4 2.5 - 3ft clones in 3gallons of Canna Coco products every 6-11 weeks. Yield and weeks is strain dependent. The quality is way better and the stretch reduction lets me travel at times.

Green wishes to all!
 
H

Haps

stone fool
Veteran
I question the truth of the blue-red value to the plant in the one example someone quoted. If the yellow was twice as usefull to the plant, this would be observable, and we would have seen the truth of it. I have looked and watched, again and again and the only thing I can say for sure, is that if you take a plant from MH veg, and put it into HPS bloom, it takes longer for it to see, and grow to the yellow, than it does if you move it from blue to blue, this I have seen.

My strategy is to buy the cheapest lights and the cheapest bulbs, and change the bulbs every 6 months, so I keep my light at it's full strenght. Works for my budget, and the girls are happy.
H
 
S

SkillsBot2935

New member
Ive got to say, when i look at some clones i keep under 4 6400k CFLs i wonder if it is ALL about PAR... Node count is dramatically better than those i keep under a low wattage HPS.

Azeotrope what do u think about using a 3k warm MH to flower instead of a 2k HPS? Ive been thinking about trying Lifelight Techs. 3k PSMH for flowering but am skeptical because of the lack of info i can find on them. PAR, CRI, Lumens etc..
 
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