What traits are passed on by the male and female plants

Guest · Jan 27, 2007

Generally speaking.I've got a nice looking Nev's haze x Mango haze male I'm thinking of crossing with my SAGE female, I think the offspring would be quite special. I don't know a whole lot about breeding so I just thought I'de ask.

Capt. Crip · Jan 27, 2007

WK,
You can't tell which traits will dominate and show themselves until you make the cross and run it in seed form....After using the same parent in several crosses you can get a general idea what traits dominate from that particular plant..

In Botany it says that the pinnate leaf type is dominant but it does not "always" seem to be the case....

I think it's a trial and error type thingy...

jojajico · Jan 27, 2007

^^ righ ton genetics is largely random there will be dominate traits but like he said the only way to really know is to run a progeny test (make seeds grow them out) good luck with the cross keep us up to date. peace

Guest · Jan 27, 2007

Gotcha. Well I'm going to put the clone I made of the male into flower tomorrow so ...here we go!

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

Bear in mind that in the production of any new
plant, selection plays the all-important part.
First, one must get clearly in mind the kind of
plant he wants, then breed and select to that end,
always choosing through a series of years the
plants which are approaching nearest the ideal,
and rejecting all others.
-Luther Burbank (in James, 1964)

peace ... nexus

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

for example ...i have an elite mom (ssh) ... in my experience her mega - high yielding "trait" has passed onto every cross i've made with her so far ... does that mean yield is a dominate trait carried by females ?? or only in this particular case??

peace ... nexus

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

does that mean yield is a dominate trait carried by females ?? or only in this particular case??

I would say yield is a quantitative trait effected by many genes and not only sex related. Although experience tells me that females pass a lot of 'form' over to crosses usually.

Peace, hhf

Elevator Man · Feb 2, 2007

I'm doing my first test grows now to see what effect males will have - 2 different Flo males crossed with Skunk#1 and Malawi Gold. At the moment, the seedlings are very small, but all look like their mothers - i.e. very little evidence of Flo so far - which would include purple stems, chubby leaves, blue-green leaf-color.

Obviously that could change, but I'm intrigued as to whether the characteristics of the fathers become more apparent say at flower-time, or in the high itself, rather than as a literal physical mix? So the offspring might still look like the mothers, but not smoke the same?

That said, my Flo F2s are showing a huge amount of variation within each male group, though I guess that's to be expected. But as to whether the indica-dom or sativa-dom males have passed on those physical traits is hard to tell at this stage. Fascinating stuff all the same... :chin:

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

elevator man ... i have some limited experience to share with you ...

c99 is known for fast flowering traits and "quality" of high

ssh is a long flowering strain her qualities are well known and loved world wide

in a cross between the two i found that the ssh mother contibuted to the yield and phenotype AND cannabinoid content ... the c99 males (ten) contibuted the short flowering cycle, but not enough of her fab "high" ... it is not perfect becuse i prefer the "high" of the c99 ... so what ssh x c99 is currently is really a faster and larger yielding "ssh hybrid" ...

what i want to do is hit ssh x c99 with c99 once more ... i am looking for a mega yielding sturdy stemmed c99 & i think i am on the right track ... this would make the cross 2/3 c99 and 1/3 super silver haze... correct?

all input is lovingly appreciated ... peace ... nexus

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

hhf ... that is great news for me ... thanks

Brownpants · Feb 2, 2007

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

The only thing that makes a male different than a female is a little "Y" chromosome, and anything linked to it will show up only in the male offspring.

-BP-

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

please elaborate brownpants ... help me learn

peace ... nexus

Guest · Feb 2, 2007

I'm going to hit my Ak47 w/some Nev's haze X mango haze pollen, I decided to use the ak47 instead of Sage ,Ak47 seems more consistant, my goal is create something with a Haze dominate High, but with shorter flowering time and stature. I would like the cross to retain the resin production of the Ak47 though. well we'll just have to see what comes out of it.

Elevator Man · Feb 3, 2007

So what about back-crossing to the original male again as a way of strengthening the cross? I've saved a bunch of pollen sachets from both Flo males, and was thinking of trying that (once) in case the male traits don't show through too well the first time.

I know backcrossing is usually done with the mother, but wouldn't it work as well with the father?

Brownpants · Feb 3, 2007

nexus said:
please elaborate brownpants ... help me learn

peace ... nexus

Nexus - It has to do with meiosis, sex linkage and the laws of inheritance. I am going to try and not get into it too much, but you should read up on it if you don't know the subjects.

For a plant to be a true male (XY) it has to inherit the "Y" chromosome from it's father. If you take away this chromosome you will be left with a female (XX). Basically, a male is a modified female, or if you want to look at in a politically incorrect way..."females are the base model and males are the upgraded model". The "Y" chromosome is mostly dominant over the matching "X" chromosome. The "Y" is read and proteins/enzymes are made that result in male hormone production that suppress female characteristics and enhance male characteristics.

Now, we are only interested in traits observed in females because they are so lovely and produce more trichomes, resin and cannabinoids than males. Females have no "Y" chromosome. They get one "X" from their mother and the other from their father. So, anything that is linked with "Y" cannot be passed on to a female. Sometimes genes can become unlinked, crossed over, jump chromosomes etc...but, these things are not the general rule and are infrequent.

This is the way I look at males. They are just masked females, and you have to look at the grandmothers and great grandmothers for clues of the traits they possess and their level of dominance.

-BP-

Guest · Feb 3, 2007

thx for taking the time to try to explain to a newbie breeder & you are right ... i need/will read up on the subject

my only real resource on hand is "MJ botany" ... my mind has seen sharper days ...must be the pot

peace ... nexus

zamalito · Feb 3, 2007

Personally I believe there's definitely some correlation between sex and heritability. After growing numerous hybrids I definitely feel that a larger portion of female traits are inherited from the maternal line than the paternal. However I don't believe this can begin to be fully explained until the mechanism for determining sex is fully understood. Though I don't agree with his theory djshort theorizes that the secretory cells in glandular trichomes are endophytic. This means that the dna in these cells is solely inherited from the mother in a way similar to that of mitochondria in each cell. IME in the first 3 generations of a true f1 hybrid flavors lean very strongly towards the mother. I'm not sure exactly what that means. Its just something I've noticed.

Guest · Feb 3, 2007

Personally I believe there's definitely some correlation between sex and heritability. After growing numerous hybrids I definitely feel that a larger portion of female traits are inherited from the maternal line than the paternal. However I don't believe this can begin to be fully explained until the mechanism for determining sex is fully understood. Though I don't agree with his theory djshort theorizes that the secretory cells in glandular trichomes are endophytic. This means that the dna in these cells is solely inherited from the mother in a way similar to that of mitochondria in each cell. IME in the first 3 generations of a true f1 hybrid flavors lean very strongly towards the mother. I'm not sure exactly what that means. Its just something I've noticed.

Yes i get this feeling to Z and my experiences are simialar. I feel there are more visible traits carried over from the female side. I also get the feeling, but have neither the science or experience to prove it, that their are more non visible traits carried by the males, if you know what i mean.

This is the way I look at males. They are just masked females, and you have to look at the grandmothers and great grandmothers for clues of the traits they possess and their level of dominance.

Excellent point BP.

Peace, hhf

Guest · Feb 3, 2007

what about when working with a clone only mother? ... with no oppurtunity to go back & observe the traits and the level of dominance from past generations on the mothers side? what do you do? how do you work it other then trial & error? i have a specific goal to achieve & the genetics to work with (unlimited c99 f2 males & very special selected ssh f1 female) ... past crosses have shown that the mega- large yielding gene is dominant from my mother plant .. is breeding about trial & error? like i said ... i have a goal & know what i am after and i'll keep crossing till i make it ...

am i wrong when i see that most common f1 crosses have a ratio of 50% & 50% from the parental plants? ... that wont work in this case ... i will try 2/3 c99 x 1/3 shh to get the mega c99 i seek ... peace ... nexus

Brownpants · Feb 3, 2007

zamalito said:
Personally I believe there's definitely some correlation between sex and heritability. After growing numerous hybrids I definitely feel that a larger portion of female traits are inherited from the maternal line than the paternal.

Maternal inheritance is the passing on of cytoplasmic DNA or Extra-nuclear genes from mothers to the progeny. Chloroplasts and mitochondria contain their own DNA and are passed on in the cytoplasm of the ovule. Pollen does not contain much cytoplasm and does not pass on these organelles. This would explain your observations Zamalito. Do you have any specific traits that you suspect are maternally inherited? It would be interesting to be able to link it to an organelle that is responsible. Chloroplasts are responsible for photosynthesis and contain chlorophyll. Mitochondria are responsible for ATP synthesis and the citric acid cycle (metabolism and energy production). Maternal inheritance would apply to all generations, not just a few. These traits could then be traced back to the original mother used in the landrace population.

zamalito said:
Though I don't agree with his theory djshort theorizes that the secretory cells in glandular trichomes are endophytic. This means that the dna in these cells is solely inherited from the mother in a way similar to that of mitochondria in each cell. IME in the first 3 generations of a true f1 hybrid flavors lean very strongly towards the mother. I'm not sure exactly what that means. Its just something I've noticed.

This sounds like maternal effect rather than maternal inheritance. Maternal effect is when the first couple generations of a cross appear to be maternally inherited, but are actually nuclear gene interactions rather than organelle-based. The F3 generations would result in mendelian ratios of the trait rather than being passed on maternally.

In my opinion, the bulk of the DNA present in a cell is contained in the nucleus and extra-nuclear DNA does not play a large role in the inheritance of traits in Cannabis. Cytoplasmic DNA does play a role, just not a very big one. Traits inherited strictly maternally would also be more obvious to breeders working past 3 generations and keeping adequate records. These traits would stand out.

-BP-

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